Imagine

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Reckeo
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Reckeo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:21 pm

After my break for so long and coming back, I can say the AI has improved a ton from what it used to be, and the Orcs were definitely noticeable, and I found it to be very enjoyable.

Kobolds are good at range attacks etc, running away and ambushing, goblins have decent numbers, and their little suicide gobbos.

I can't comment much on trolls and the like. But the little guys...... :dance:

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Hoihe
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Hoihe » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:24 pm

Reckeo wrote:After my break for so long and coming back, I can say the AI has improved a ton from what it used to be, and the Orcs were definitely noticeable, and I found it to be very enjoyable.

Kobolds are good at range attacks etc, running away and ambushing, goblins have decent numbers, and their little suicide gobbos.

I can't comment much on trolls and the like. But the little guys...... :dance:

Re: kobolds. It's nothing compared to their real power alas. Ask Flasmix re: that.

Kobolds when controlled by Flasmix are capable of taking out a party of level 30s by employing traps that seperate them veiled with illusions that make the rest of the party think they're dead, while preventing the seperated person from contacting the rest as they wither them down from kill-holes.

It's glorious.
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Reckeo
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Reckeo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:45 pm

Deff saw this first hand.

<3 kobolds. ^^

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aaron22
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by aaron22 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:49 pm

Reckeo wrote:I am only using these for examples since OP suggested 8 intelligence and 8 wisdom, which makes me think of orcs, goblins, etc etc
lets leave the personal attacks against my toons out of this :lol:
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Steve
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Steve » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:51 pm

So, grinding is already mind-numbing. Quests are more mind-numbing. Having to repeat objectives over and over to gain XP seems even more more more mind-numbing.

I think you forget, Hoihe, that the majority of players on BGTSCC just want to kill things, get awesome gear, and see all the Areas of the Server (and maybe a DM event now and then).

Repetition isn’t the way forward.
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Hoihe
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Hoihe » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:57 pm

Steve wrote:So, grinding is already mind-numbing. Quests are more mind-numbing. Having to repeat objectives over and over to gain XP seems even more more more mind-numbing.

I think you forget, Hoihe, that the majority of players on BGTSCC just want to kill things, get awesome gear, and see all the Areas of the Server (and maybe a DM event now and then).

Repetition isn’t the way forward.

A (relative to the act of killing the same mob over and over again) complex task of "solve this dungeon", even if I already know how, feels less repetitive than quests and "smash thing over and over again."

Especially since you get the most XP by actually wandering around and seeing new places, not from "Why go to other dungeon? less XP/hour!" - the typical party members I grace myself with.
"The desire to build a house is the tired wish of a man content with a single anchorage. The desire to build a boat is the desire of youth, unwilling yet to accept the idea of a final resting place."
"The wind and the waves are always on the side of the ablest navigator."

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Steve
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Steve » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Well, if completing a task for each Area would make Players go to all Areas of the Server, now and then, then I can imagine that is a plus.

But honestly, adding a Task to many or all Areas seems like an immense task in itself, requiring writing Quests or Quest-like code for each instance. I guess if you would bring a team together of willing skill sets in order to facilitate something like that, to actually give Tasks some IC interest/storyline/etc., that could be cool.

But yeah, lots of work involved. You'd have to put your money where your mouth is.
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aaron22
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by aaron22 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:17 pm

NegInfinity wrote:The AI will simply besiege every town and annihilate anyone who would attempt to leave them.
you say that like it is a bad thing... that would be awesome
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Invoker
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Invoker » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:23 am

aaron22 wrote:
NegInfinity wrote:The AI will simply besiege every town and annihilate anyone who would attempt to leave them.
you say that like it is a bad thing... that would be awesome
I would still kill them all.

I played Starcraft, and was beating Grandmasters. I threw out a Dutch master from a chess tournament last year. I can kill Antimage with Invoker as Nyx Assassin tries unsuccessfully to spike me in High Skill bracket in Dota2. I can solo Mai Trin and several other fractals in GW2 on a glass thief (which is the most difficult class to play to begin with).

You think some NWN2 A.I. would cause my mage problems? A.I. can understand single actions and reactions, but will never grasp how several spells in a sequence interact with each other. I would destroy them all, and make it look like a joke.

What I don't see is: why would we want to make it so that people who don't know much about mechanics, nor care, would be rendered powerless to visit 95% of the server lest they get obliterated?

If anything, server tradition goes in the complete, opposite direction. Which is also the more logical one, on an RP server.
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Steve
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Steve » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:22 am

I guess Invoker just laid out how Role-play is THE most challenging and rewarding mechanic to learn and play!

:twisted: 0:)
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Young Werther
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Young Werther » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:23 am

Invoker wrote: I would destroy them all, and make it look like a joke.
They would then call you............... Injoker. Get it? :dance: :dance: GOTEM
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NegInfinity
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by NegInfinity » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:33 am

Invoker wrote:I threw out a Dutch master from a chess tournament last year.
Last time the best human won against the best computer in chess was in 2005. Computers dominate the chess since.
Invoker wrote: You think some NWN2 A.I. would cause my mage problems? A.I. can understand single actions and reactions, but will never grasp how several spells in a sequence interact with each other. I would destroy them all, and make it look like a joke.
Well, it would grasp it, but the thing is Bgtscc does not have resources or computational power to create equivalent of dota's uberbot.

Another problem is that I recall complaints about server process hitting memory limits for 32bit system, and that was quite some time ago.

Which means it would be a good idea to get back from the clouds and implement something realistic and useful, like crafting system.

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Invoker
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Invoker » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:40 am

NegInfinity wrote:
Invoker wrote:I threw out a Dutch master from a chess tournament last year.
Last time the best human won against the best computer in chess was in 2005. Computers dominate the chess since.


I know full well. I was only illustrating the fact I can play a variety of very complex games fairly well as a background for what I had to say.
Invoker wrote: Well, it would grasp it, but the thing is Bgtscc does not have resources or computational power to create equivalent of dota's uberbot.

Another problem is that I recall complaints about server process hitting memory limits for 32bit system, and that was quite some time ago.

Which means it would be a good idea to get back from the clouds and implement something realistic and useful, like crafting system.
The only thing Dota's uberbots can beat me at, is last hitting. That is, they farm better (provided they counter-pick my hero in lane, or that is a 1v1 mirror match). But in a game with multiple objectives and a variety of strategies, bots of any quality in Dota have zero chances of winning against me.

Even against the best bots the community has to offer, where I first pick Invoker and they counterpick at least 3 heroes (say, Antimage, Silencer and Nyx), I still thrash them like kids.

NWN2's result would be far more similar to Dota's than chess, despite the turn-based element which favors the AI. The limited resources would do the rest.

You won't see me lose anytime soon.
"Life is nothing in itself. It’s a place marker that proves who’s winning, and we are the winners. Even winning means nothing. We win because it’s an insult to lose. The ends don’t justify the means. The means don’t justify the ends. There is no one to justify to. There is no justice."

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Aspect of Sorrow
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:49 am

NegInfinity wrote:Bgtscc does not have resources or computational power to create equivalent of dota's uberbot.
We do; versions of TF builds are used on mobile phones for autonomous driving.
NegInfinity wrote:Another problem is that I recall complaints about server process hitting memory limits for 32bit system, and that was quite some time ago.
Only it's communication and control paths need hooked. ~400 KB at best.
Invoker wrote:You think some NWN2 A.I. would cause my mage problems? A.I. can understand single actions and reactions, but will never grasp how several spells in a sequence interact with each other. I would destroy them all, and make it look like a joke.
TensorFlow isn't a magic bullet, no, but what it excels at is the simulation of millions of encounters to determine the best probable outcome, that includes spell sequences, movement, feats, and build appropriate weights for response. It would know and provide a faster mechanism of response against things like VF'ing in close proximity simply by walking out of range before the end of the cast, going in and out of counterspell, and with NWN2's broken dice system favoring NPCs use that as part of it's leverage. That said, human intuitiveness is jeopardized when it's met with machine inhibiting limits that another machine can perform equally in.
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Hoihe
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Re: Imagine

Unread post by Hoihe » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:34 pm

The point isn't really A.I difficulty. It's that from an IC perspective, the majority of NPCs would never behave the way they do.

We are playing a roleplaying game. Hence, we make decisions from an IC perspective. Hence, the standard non-summoner "how not to go insane trying to see progress" wizard approach of round'em up and knock'em down would not exist. It would exist at most for simple minded creatures incapable of tactical counter-play (so trash-mob undead and animals).

Technically speaking, doing the round'em up and knock em down vs animals/simple undead makes sense ICly.

Doing it vs those capable of strategic thinking, as an experienced adventurer (whatever way we view levels, level 20+ is experienced) is roleplaying 6 wisdom or worse. 8 wisdom is needing more data to come to the same conclusion as someone with equal intelligence but 10 wisdom.

The "Objectives give XP" provides opportunity to progress by adventuring while maintaining ICly plausible actions.
"The desire to build a house is the tired wish of a man content with a single anchorage. The desire to build a boat is the desire of youth, unwilling yet to accept the idea of a final resting place."
"The wind and the waves are always on the side of the ablest navigator."

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