Open question to team evil/morally questionable

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Kayle Walker
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by Kayle Walker »

whatsittoya wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:59 pm Is it actually a problem for a good-aligned character to not want to seriously socially engage with someone they know to be evil (or even just reasonably assume to be evil or at least creepy, based on hard data such as the number of severed fingers and ears someone happens to be wearing as a necklace, overt evil deity iconography, being covered in fresh blood and hairy scalps, and/or being witnessed kicking puppies)?

That's as much a question as a statement, in response to the number of comments regarding the goodies packing up their things and leaving the fire circle when the baddies come to sit down.

From an IC perspective, not engaging with someone who egregiously violates your morals is just being sensible (with the notable and likely singular exception of attempted redemption arcs). I certainly wouldn't expect evil characters to be super happy to entertain my good characters either.
I don't think this is purely IC-based problem.

Sure, that's true, but then you don't have quite as much accessibility for evil mains, nor do they have as much RP exposure and leeway (as much as we pretend otherwise). The overall preference towards good is inevitable, IMO, but leaving evil in the dust just leaves us always looking to DMs for evil to slay, or interpersonal stuff to work with. My input here probably isn't the best PoV as both a mostly-lurker and observer from the outside, but things always had seemed to me this environment that almost OOCly pushes people out in RPs.

You get into the wrong side of things and it just feels like waiting to react to the bigger group's actions than actual autonomy. Information being left out from others in the bigger RPs just encourage more people to watch from the sidelines or just ignore it and grind.
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Tekill
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

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Kayle Walker wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:50 pm Information being left out from others in the bigger RPs just encourage more people to watch from the sidelines or just ignore it and grind.
Way back when, on this NWN1 server, I played on, they had this feature where you could call yourself a Shadow Adept. IIRC I do not even think it was a PRC- just the right to RP your mage as one.

The thing was, there were many players applying for this feature but all of them were being turned down. Players were constantly posting on the forum how angry they were about being turned down by the admin. At the time I thought nothing of it until I had this great idea for a Shadow Adept of my own.
I new it was going to be hard to get approved, but my concept was so brilliant how could they say no. Even still, I did a lot of research on the class and the dark weave and Shar etc. I wrote a huge detailed back-story about how she slowly became turned to the dark side. I thought I had figured out every possible loose end in my character concept.
When they declined my application, I was friggen livid!
I had for some reason assumed that all the people who were declined before me simply did not try hard enough and that I would show them how it was really done.
I sent the Admin an email asking why the hell do they even have the option if they are turning everyone down?!
I think I also called their honor into question....to which they replied with lots of colorful language but no solid explanation regarding why they decline all applications.

I think if they had just been clear on what they wanted- clearly outlining what the spirit of this class feature was and what it would take to be approved, it would have avoided a lot of player frustration.

When dealing with the challenges of trying to RP evil characters on this server I have often thought back to that humbling episode on that NWN1 server. It helped me recognize that there is a certain spirit or philosophy engaged by those running a server that I may not totally understand or sometimes agree with. It impressed upon me the need to try and figure out regardless of what the rules allowed, what it was that people actually wanted with respect to evil/conflict/pvp. And it has definitely inspired me to engage in some good natured but heated debate and criticism.

This in turn has allowed me to be occasionally successful at being evil and doing so not at the expense of other players.

In the end, I am guessing that the Admin of that NWN1 server simply did not really want to have any Shadow Adept players, but they still wanted to keep the option open in case that 'chosen one' – or perfect player came along. Maybe that one dedicated player that would spend a lot of time and energy in game slowly evolving into a Shadow Adept. Maybe prove they could handle it, over the span of months or years of serious in game character development.

The cards are on the table now. Meaning, players are aware that RP'ing an evil player will often go against the grain of the spirit of this server. Yet, this does not make it impossible. So try playing evil if you like, (I still do) but just keep in mind, it is not going to be easy.
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Steve
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by Steve »

Most problems, like what has been talked about in this thread, could be solved if more Players actually wanted to play/engage/include other Players.

OOC feelings toward others is what kills most RP, and doubly so when it is RP based on some conflict (like Good vs. Evil, but also even when it’s Lawful vs Chaotic WITHIN Good or Evil groups/factions/etc).

And add to that the simple fact that whether IC or OOC, people don’t come to play on BGTSSC to experience conflict, they come to experience fun. So when interactions are not perceived as fun, doors close.

I’ve learned through the many years in BGTSCC that all one can hope for is finding a few players that you find likeminded, and enjoy whatever that brings. Trying to enter or access groups that think differently or enjoy different aspects of RP, never ends well.
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Kayle Walker
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by Kayle Walker »

Tekill wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:29 am The cards are on the table now. Meaning, players are aware that RP'ing an evil player will often go against the grain of the spirit of this server. Yet, this does not make it impossible. So try playing evil if you like, (I still do) but just keep in mind, it is not going to be easy.
So it *is* first and foremost, a server that caters to Good RPers, with Evil RPers thrown in as an extra? This is kind of the elephant in the room, isn't it? Is BGTSCC in all but writing, a good-catered server or not?
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Steve
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

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Kayle Walker wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:43 am
Tekill wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:29 am The cards are on the table now. Meaning, players are aware that RP'ing an evil player will often go against the grain of the spirit of this server. Yet, this does not make it impossible. So try playing evil if you like, (I still do) but just keep in mind, it is not going to be easy.
So it *is* first and foremost, a server that caters to Good RPers, with Evil RPers thrown in as an extra? This is kind of the elephant in the room, isn't it? Is BGTSCC in all but writing, a good-catered server or not?
I’m of the opinion that it isn’t that the Server is “good-catered” by default, but that the far majorit of its Members choose or support this narrative.

Why aren’t there more players in the Zhentarim guild? Or the Red Wizards? Or even the Thieves Guild? Or playing Orcs from Uruk Llurra? At least, I’m equal population to what we currently see in Radiant Heart, Doron Amar, Green Enclave, Whitewood Vanguard? (Yes, I do know some of these guilds/factions are not strict Good or Evil).

All one has to do is imagine establishing and supporting an Evil-aligned guild/faction with 30 active members.

The Server would literally HAVE TO sway to support that, directly, and it would have a great affect on how the general environment is experienced.
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Kayle Walker
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by Kayle Walker »

Steve wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:14 am
I’m of the opinion that it isn’t that the Server is “good-catered” by default, but that the far majority of its Members choose or support this narrative.
Then herein lies the systematic problem. If players (consciously or unconsciously) reject a proliferation of evil RP, then evil RP really is just an extra, much to the disappointment of players, but at least by making it plain, expectations can be set. Coz as it is, people might be hoping for something that never actually comes. Sure, the evil RP community can always just temper expectations by themselves, but I think a word of law might make things really solidify into reality. Question is, are the people who need to say it brave enough to just say it out loud?
Wolfshear
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by Wolfshear »

Playing evil is entirely pointless and utterly unfulfilling on this server.
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Kayle Walker
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by Kayle Walker »

Again, I haven't been around nearly as long or as often as most here, but even then, I've seen a LOT of grievances like the one above this post. Anecdotal, sure. But its telling that even someone as "new" as me can see it and people still keep up this... ignorance/denial of the state of evil RP. An official setting of expectations can go a long way here.
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by Wolfshear »

I have been around since 2008-2009 or so on and off. Played evil almost the entire time.

Genuinely if you want to have any sort of meaningful rp or character development as a morally questionable person...This is not the server for it.
You can read through this thread to see how out of touch and in denial people can be about it.

Short of pvp bait and saturday morning cartoon villiany it's generally a pretty rough road I do not recommend anyone going on.
Hell, even if you play some type of pvp bait it is amusing to some for awhile before they tire of it and write you off just the same.

The fact that even someone new can see the state of things is very telling.
But it will be dismissed most likely.
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

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Kayle Walker wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:31 am. Coz as it is, people might be hoping for something that never actually comes.
Kinda sorta.

Granted, there is always the exception where someone feels they managed to thoroughly enjoy evil-minded RP. But considering that enjoyment is totally subjective….
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Delyt
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by Delyt »

It's a big problem of attitude of the players and DMs, the objective way of looking at it is to understand that most people don't want to be challenged, and roleplaying with an evil character as a good one, can be a challenge, it is very fulfilling to do, but people fear failure and losing.

They fear getting used, being spied, etc. So they simply choose to pretend that evil PCs don't exist unless it is to do a DM event where you indirectly attack their guild, see people only want to rp with evil PCs on their terms.

It's a culture that has been allowed to prosper thanks to the attitudes of the majority of DMs and players.

Knowing that, it's better to avoid playing an evil character simply to avoid frustration.
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

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Wolfshear wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:57 am I have been around since 2008-2009 or so on and off. Played evil almost the entire time.

Genuinely if you want to have any sort of meaningful rp or character development as a morally questionable person...This is not the server for it.
You can read through this thread to see how out of touch and in denial people can be about it.

Short of pvp bait and saturday morning cartoon villiany it's generally a pretty rough road I do not recommend anyone going on.
Hell, even if you play some type of pvp bait it is amusing to some for awhile before they tire of it and write you off just the same.

The fact that even someone new can see the state of things is very telling.
But it will be dismissed most likely.
As another long standing evil player, I hate it but I have to completely agree with Wolfshear on this statement and it NEEDS to be heard. There is a very clear and unspoken bias against the evil players (I say players and not characters, as I know a lot of folks who left the server due to OOC hostilities for them playing evil) and while it may be denied, it's extremely clear to us evil players. This issue needs to be addressed or else the server will become very one-sided (more so than it already is) as all the players that enjoy evil RP move elsewhere where they feel supported.
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by sweetlikesplenda »

I usually stay out of OOC forum threads. But, I agree that some people do seem to see the players as the Character. But, as we all know, we are not our characters. I play a goody goody, but I do recognize that without evil, there is little point to even playing good. Rather then rely solely on DMs to provide evil, both sides need to be able to work together to tell a fun story. I mean, without evil paladins are fat and lazy with nothing to do, right? I hope for the community's sake that we all, players of both good and evil, have a chance to tell a part of the story, feel like we all can contribute in some way, win some/lose some, and are rewarded for effort/time investment/creativity we put in to our RP.

The community is becoming smaller over time and I hate to see someone leave over something that could be avoided, helped along, or fixed.
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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

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Re: Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Unread post by Almarea90 »

whatsittoya wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:59 pm Is it actually a problem for a good-aligned character to not want to seriously socially engage with someone they know to be evil (or even just reasonably assume to be evil or at least creepy, based on hard data such as the number of severed fingers and ears someone happens to be wearing as a necklace, overt evil deity iconography, being covered in fresh blood and hairy scalps, and/or being witnessed kicking puppies)?

That's as much a question as a statement, in response to the number of comments regarding the goodies packing up their things and leaving the fire circle when the baddies come to sit down.

From an IC perspective, not engaging with someone who egregiously violates your morals is just being sensible (with the notable and likely singular exception of attempted redemption arcs). I certainly wouldn't expect evil characters to be super happy to entertain my good characters either.
That makes perfect sense and emoting that the character is leaving with an frown or feels unsettled by the unholy aura around the evil PC covered in symbols of Bhaal is RP as well. What I saw happening was people leaving the place without typing a single word and one is left wondering if they were IC leaving because they were unsettled or if they were going afk or left to do shopping. Or if they even acknowledge their presence.

That said, I can also see this is not a problem just restricted to the lack of emotes at the campfire. This is a problem that also exacerbates during events or attempts to affect the world as there are less evil toons than good ones (or at least those who are openly evil) and as much as the DM team may attempt to level the field, the party that has more players will send in more ideas and more solutions that means more chances to sort the situation before the blatantly evil faction they would never cooperate with.

At this point my question is: how can this be resolved? I am asking honestly and out of curiosity because I can't think of a solution myself. We can't force people to play evil to fill an evil quota, if people want to play good there's nothing we can do. Inclusivity can help to some extent. Personally if someone makes even a modicum of attempt to keep babies sacrifices secret I make an effort to include them, but if someone is blatantly and openly evil I can see why it may take a great effort for the majority of people to find a way to ask their help in a plot when the place is full of good aligned people they can ask.
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