thought of the day on tanks

[Invoker]

EXACTLY!!!! If people stop thinking in terms of PvP then we would be fine. However Invoker you have to see that humans are competitive right? Game being that way or not does not matter to us in the end we make everything a competition.........

I appreciate that, Calodan. But it's a paradigm that needs shifting. There are a lot of competitive games out there. I myself play in the High Skill Bracket in Dota2 (13,5 million players), so it's not like I don't understand what you mean.

But this one? This isn't the game for that. It's like trying to emulate a formula one race with a class C Mercedes through the streets of Amsterdam...you won't be too happy with the result (actually, likely dead...really quick...).

I play a F/FB/WM/R. The only issue I have is the low HP and lower AC. I use scrolls for a lot of things on that build. It straight wrecks squishy things quickly. Give it a weapon that is either blunt or has Extra Melee blunt and you straight wreck things thanks to the extra dmg from FB in PA and IPA. So if you give a FB/WM some displacement with mirrors during boss fights you should be able to wreck every boss damn near. Might have a issue with the balor and Dracolich...but you can wreck every other boss I am thinking.

That's pretty much the status quo, yes.

[Zethrenx99]

You can be competitive in PvE. A character that is less powerful then other characters in a group and has nothing to contribute to that group will have less fun than the others which makes competition for better builds a PvE problem. I've played pure tanks, the issue is in aggro. NPC's are metagamers for difficulty purposes but in PnP DM's don't typically metagame their npc's. With that said there are some creatures which target specific archetypes of players in their combat strategy and that's fine. Currently though all mobs just ignore you unless you have high dmg or Low AC.

Why are melee worse then mages? Well they are suppose to be generally speaking. If you look at the basic structure for any casting class they require 8 hours of UN-interupted rest to gain their spells and resting while in an adventure is typically a very dangerous thing. Why are gish better tanks then fighters? Well because spells don't work properly. Mage armor creates an armor item, shield creates a shield, they don't enchant their own gear, this is something that only clerics really get with the exception of GMW. Also, it takes several minutes to don full plate and some one cannot don fullplate on their own without penalty. So gishtanks that throw their fullplate on like a towel in the morning after every buff cycle is ridiculous and sleeping in fullplate armor incurs penalties without endurance (things any fighter could easily get). NwN2 is designed like a MMO such as WoW and not like PnP because bugsidian is lazy and the amount of scripting required to make a PnP equivalent wouldn't be worth the money.

With that said we need to decide if we want to accept that this is a MMO like wow and as such fighter/non-caster classes need a buff to be "tanks" or we need to accept that it needs some work on the PnP side and make balanced accordingly.

Easiest thing is to add in +5 gear, +4 ability gear. Doesn't nerf anyone, doesn't buff any power builds, just makes non-power built non-magic builds less suckly.

[chad878262]

Easiest thing is to add in +5 gear, +4 ability gear. Doesn't nerf anyone, doesn't buff any power builds, just makes non-power built non-magic builds less suckly.

There is already +4 INT, CON and WIS items available, the rest will follow... So then is the issue truly that extra +1 to hit/damage from GMW vs. +4 EB? +1 seems rather a small difference.

[Vogar Eol]

Invoker has been on point in this topic. This is a cooperative game.

What I've noticed about gish, is they are too slow for parties. This is especially true for divine gish who can't switch into a blaster on a rest. In cooperative play, everyone follows behind a couple Weaponmasters, buffs them, and throw damage spells and drains from behind them. If they don't have a couple Weaponmaster players, they use summons. Anyone having to constantly reapply 1 to 3 short duration abilities/spells finds the fights over before they are ready. Why? The weaponmasters and blasters cut the enemy down already.

Considering seeing this time and time again in actual epic content, I don't see why people hate Gish (both arcane and divine) as much as they do. In solo, they can survive, but move through content quite slowly. So slowly, in fact, people watching are likely to mock them. A party of two easily beats their effectiveness. In party, they are only useful for filling the role of a Horned Devil or buffing a Weaponmaster.

This is a cooperative environment. If you hurt the other guy, he won't be able to have your back.

[WhatsInTheBox]

PvP happens alot even in my brief time on this server I've seen it happen alot. For people who don't really enjoy playing casters there shouldn't be anything wrong with wanting to compete with casters. People keep saying casters SHOULD be more powerful than non casters is the problem. They shouldn't be. This isn't D&D as much as we all want it to be. Casters don't have the issues they have in D&D here. They get all the power with none of the problems. In D&D I have other options like grappling and a real initiative system with clear markers of how far one another are away from each other.

This is like an MMO as others have said and the power balance needs to be brought closer together . There is nothing wrong with the idea of wanting to be able to win in PvP without being a caster.

[chad878262]

PvP happens alot even in my brief time on this server I've seen it happen alot.

My experience is different. I haven't had anyone attempt to PvP any of my characters in nearly two years and have only been involved in PvP three times in my entire time on the server. I don't look for it and I haven't noticed any other players attempting to engage me in it. Perhaps it depends on the circles you run in or something, don't know...

In D&D I have other options like grappling and a real initiative system with clear markers of how far one another are away from each other.

This depends on who you are "PvPing" with. One of the most memorable RP experiences I had was against a caster and she was very much willing to allow for grappling rolls to be made. It was great fun because even though we were competing IC'ly we were cooperative OOC. It was a memorable experience for me (miss you Grymhild) and I didn't feel there was any 'winning' or 'losing'. In general I find that sending a quick tell about what you want to do can make things go more smoothly, but with some of the excellent RP'ers on this server just doing an emote (*lunges in to grab the caster and tackle to the ground* ///Can I make a STR/Grapple check?) goes a long way to building a story with other players. It doesn't have to be a series of EW clicks or the mage casting Vamp Feast or Wail of the Banshee before going on his way. This is what is meant by a cooperative game, it's story telling and role play. As Invoker said, DOTA2 does competitive PvP better anyway (never played, but I hear good things), but what NWN2 and this server does better is bringing a PnP LIKE experience to the players. However, like anything else, you get out what you put in. If all you consider PvP is clicking your sword on the other guy then don't get mad when he drops an 'I win button'. Try approaching it in other ways and I think you will be surprised at the willingness of other players to play along.

Then again, my experience in PvP is rather limited, but I feel like I have RP'd with a good number of the players on the server and the vast majority have always seemed more than willing to allow for rolls outside of straight combat in any given situations. Just because Rolls cannot be FORCED upon another player without a DM doesn't mean people won't use them.

[Invoker]

PvP happens alot even in my brief time on this server I've seen it happen alot. For people who don't really enjoy playing casters there shouldn't be anything wrong with wanting to compete with casters. People keep saying casters SHOULD be more powerful than non casters is the problem. They shouldn't be. This isn't D&D as much as we all want it to be. Casters don't have the issues they have in D&D here. They get all the power with none of the problems. In D&D I have other options like grappling and a real initiative system with clear markers of how far one another are away from each other.

This is like an MMO as others have said and the power balance needs to be brought closer together . There is nothing wrong with the idea of wanting to be able to win in PvP without being a caster.

I have won PvP encounters playing both sides.

Those saying you need to be a caster to win a PvP cannot PvP at all.

You need consumables to win PvP. And then, you just win. Simple as that.

PvP in this game isn't good at all, and nobody intersted in teabagging people should play this game. As I said before, when I want to shred my fellow gamers, I play DotA. This is a cooperative game.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I just want to think "hey there is a reason to play a non caster because they can do something a caster cannot" and currently that is not the case. The result is far less diversity as the vast majority of people play either a caster or a sneak. When I speak of balance I refer to every class being able to compete within their archtype. Currently classes designed to be tanks are not capable of being amongst the best tanks. They are relegated to mediocrity as casters make the best casters and tanks.

FB/WM builds have virtually no willpower, reflex, or AC. They usually require SD levels for HiPS in order to survive. Not sure why people are claiming they are incredibly good without apparently any experience playing them. Also their DPS is roughly the same as a favored souls which means they have no real advantage and many drawbacks.

The only melee tank that is actually decent is the ultimate dwarven defender which has faced suggestions for nerfing despite being far weaker then favored souls.

Again I would like to mention that with CL 30 no PvE mob can dispel a caster which is not pnp accurate so everyone claiming warriors are "suppose to be weaker" should consider what would happen if this was added. Of course it would never be because that would nerf casters. The truth is this isn't PnP though is it? There are a lot of changes that were done for balance in the past such as all the giant type creatures getting favored enemy dwarf to counter the dwarven AC bonus.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

There are elements throughout the module that are specific to other skill and feat requisites that most casters don't have. That isn't to say that it will stay that way, as area designers start taking advantage of skills most deemed even useless.

[chad878262]

FB/WM builds have virtually no willpower, reflex, or AC.

Feats can take care of this in many cases, but I would like to point something out here. FB/WM builds are taking two classes that combined require 9 Feats in order to get the biggest possible damage numbers. If That same Fighter gave up either FB OR WM and instead took Annointed Knight the saves issues would be resolved. The AC issue can be solved by using a scimitar and popping on a Tower Shield as needed. That's what I do with my Bard when I go through the Nashkel Mines because it's not feasible to rely on short term buffs like Ethereal Visage for anything more than a boss fight. I do less damage this way, but +8 AC is necessary to not watch my mirror images deteriorate to nothing, followed by HP.

The complaint is often uttered that Arcane Gishes don't do enough damage, but they CAN do more damage, if they CHOOSE to give something up. Just today I made a build for someone that wanted a way to fit SB in to a Bladesinger. What I came up with is a little low on the AB side and may need to rely on some divine wands (Bless, Aid, Prayer, Divine Favor), but it gets near 30 damage per hit on a DEX Gish and a CL27 via Archmage. By the same token by giving up some of the high damage of a Fighter type you can GAIN more defense. You just can't do 700 damage / round AND be super tanky. We had this discussion not long ago when someone asked if a F30 could be viable. The answer was SURE! but it's more so if you mix in some other classes to assist with offense and defense. Anointed Knight is one of the best PRC's out there for melee because it addressed one of their top weaknesses (will saves). A F12/AK10/FB5/R3 would have fantastic saves and could alternate between high damage and high AC as needed. However, if you want to go after WM and FB to get the uber highest numbers possible you don't also get to have the best defense, just like a Gish that wants to dip in too many non-caster or non-full caster progression classes to address their weaknesses has to accept less than full caster level. I tell ya, I sure wish there was a class that could easily fix the will/fortitude save deficiencies of Rogues like AK does for warriors, especially one that provides so much other great stuff (and for the cost of one feat that helps further address a weakness!)

FvS can solo like champions so long as they get to rest every ~15-20 minutes. If they have to ration their spells they are much less god like, this is even more the case with Bards who have a far more limited number of casts per day. Meanwhile F/FB/WM/X with a caster buddy shines in events and long duration grinding because they are always at top efficiency and wards only make them better.

EDIT: No, you don't have to be good... You can also go F12/WoD10/FB5/Auril Cleric 3 and go for EDM with good saves... Or you could go BG3, or you could mix in Divine Champion if you want... There are a bunch of classes that add defense to a fighter type with no spell casting required.

[Calodan]

FB/WM builds have virtually no willpower, reflex, or AC. They usually require SD levels for HiPS in order to survive. Not sure why people are claiming they are incredibly good without apparently any experience playing them. Also their DPS is roughly the same as a favored souls which means they have no real advantage and many drawbacks.

First off which amateur builder is going to build a HIGH DPS STR build for HIPS? Secondly this statement is a farce. It is false. A FB/WM with a Greatsword will do far more than a FvS with EDM could ever dream of in a round of hits. A GS FB/WM is going to be doing roughly 150 dmg on rolls of 16-20. That is an incredible amount of rolls that get that in a round actually. The amount of damage a FB/WM can visit on a foe is just insane in a short time span as compared to any build on the server. Only thing that competes like that for damage in truth is a warlock. Again I have a FB/WM and it is not the subpar build you are talking about at all. It can solo quite a bit of the server no issue at all and in groups these things are the best. A FB/WM in a group makes that group one hard group to bring down unless you are facing crit immunes but I stress again the FB does a lot to mitigate that with its improvements to PA and IPA.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

HiPS actually works out surprisingly well in that build. I had no problem playing a dex/str character. Also a FS can last longer then 10 minutes in combat unless they waste all their spells foolishly. Same goes for any caster.

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So you are saying that WM builds have higher DPS then FS which is sort of right however you are not connecting the dots. By tweaking the build for AC and saves your DPS quickly drops below that of a FS and yet you still end with lower defense capability and regardless of what you do your saves will at best be mediocre and struggle to succeed against checks.

So yes the build can have high DPS but will have everything else as a drawback. FS don't have any drawbacks at all hence why I suggest that all future EDM builds require at least a 5 level dip.

[chad878262]

But this would hurt non caster edm builds so it's not as simple as requiring a bigger dip.

[Vogar Eol]

A WM/FB and a FvS walk into a new room of the dungeon. Before entering, the FvS buffed them both with 24hrs, hour/level, and minute/level buffs. Once inside the room, they see three Nagas: A Spirit Naga, A Dark Naga, and a normal Naga.

The FvS casts extend Righteous Might for damage/defense, 6 seconds. He then casts extended Divine Power for offense, 6 seconds. After that he casts Divine Favor for AB/damage, 6 seconds. Lastly, he uses EDM, 6 seconds. On entering combat, he spent a total of 24 seconds casting short-term buffs. Call it 30 seconds, if he didn't perfectly queue the spells. Add Jaunt for safety? Add time.

Meanwhile, the WM/FB charges forward and starts smashing the EW button. He has at least a four round head start. How many does he kill before the FvS steps forward?

When the fight is over, it will be over very quickly with 3 dead Nagas. The EDM wears off in less than a couple rounds of the end of the fight... if it lasted the whole fight... if the FvS had anything left to kill after using EDM while the WM/FB simply attacked. The Divine Favor runs down in 2 minutes, or about the time it takes to walk to the next enemies.

They walk into the next room. The FvS recasts Divine Favor and EDM, 12 seconds. The merry WM/FB is smashing things those full 12 seconds.

Eventually the FvS gives up even trying to do damage. He follows behind the WM/FB and casts Regeneration, Heal, and Greater Restoration on the WM/FB, while following behind, kicking rocks.

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Just adding to show that even -IF- the damage both could do in a round was the same (it isn't), the WM/FB gets a very good head start. That head start is worth something in actual practice.

As someone once said in another topic. When the fight starts, a Gish spends 2 minutes buffing. When he is ready, the party tells him the fight is over... but thanks for trying.

[AC81]

FB/WM do just fine AND the only time a FvS has out-damaged me was against heavy DR where their divine damage sources shone through ... but isn't that kinda the point - every build has strengths/weaknesses, cooperation is the key. I love grouping with a mage or druid, and basically just getting let loose on the PvE world, sure I don't need the buffs but the numbers go big!

Draviir is a classic F14/FB5/WM7/WD4 split but I tweaked his stats to pump con, picked steadfast and lowered str a little. Just loaded the game up to look at his unbuffed stats with a shield and they are like this:

HP 476; AC 48; Fort 36; Reflex 32; Will 34
AB with IPA 45; Damage one-handed with IPA 1d6 + 1d4 + 31 = ~37 per hit x3 crit on 13-20. On full damage mode these numbers go pretty high, peaking at around 150-160 per crit and this guy was built with defence in mind. No favoured soul is beating that unless there is DR involved.

I can bump his AC by another 7 with IMA wand, Combat Expertise and a tower shield. He also has expose weakness if he needs help hitting or can use UMD for most other things (displacement, mirrors, etc). These things are, as Calodan said, easily capable of soloing 99% of the server. Easy. Also, as Calodan correctly says, while other builds are buffing for a fight, this guy is already amongst it, cutting things to pieces.

I didn't post these numbers to boast or anything, just to prove that ANY build, if built sensibly can comfortably navigate BG.