On Server Management

[Maecius]

Posting this here for any comments or feedback, as desired, to prevent me from derailing the original thread:

If you want to blame the lack of implementation on something, it is nothing more than the good old BGTSCC bureaucracy in action, coupled with how everything is actually done with triple layer of secrecy so that the left hand doesn't even know where to look for the right hand.

Honestly... If you need help with something, just ask for it. You do not have to wait in silence and hope that the right kind of help gets magically offered.

I personally wouldn't call it secrecy, or even bureaucracy, really. Most of us do this as a hobby, with "real life" professions entirely unrelated to computer technology or game design. Naturally, we do the best we can with what we have, but we're not going to put out a game with all the polish of a full-time gaming studio. Projects are going to fall through the cracks, particularly as the people who were carrying those projects leave the community or take interest in something else.

The word "bureaucracy," in particular, suggests a level of professionalism we simply lack. After my years of effort here, I'd love it if we had a working bureaucracy.

Maybe if this was a full-time job with compensation you could reasonably hold the staff to a higher standard, but nobody here is getting paid for their work. They're doing it out of love for the game and the community.

Of course, some might argue that even lacking the polish of a triple A studio, we still have here a server that's more fun (and certainly more lasting) than a lot of the games put out to market these days! After all, sometimes amateurs can produce something out of love that pros can't produce for profit. And no writer in the world can write the realistic, unpredictable, and engaging dialogue and roleplay that you guys all write with each other.

Nevertheless, I would also argue that we do ask for help when we need it. I agree that doing so is of critical importance to any volunteer-based community, and it has served us well this last year in dramatically growing our staff and the amount of expertise we have on hand.

I appreciate that you're trying to be helpful, yourself, and you have some pretty sound advice couched in the somewhat hostile language, but it hurts me to see my comments used in "support" of the narrative that there is malice or malfeasance in the staff. I know it was probably just an off-handed expression, not meant to be taken very seriously, but it's a continuation of the narrative that the server's staff is secretive and manipulative, and I just don't feel that narrative has the evidence to support it without challenge.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a technical expert, and if I misspoke on something, that's only my own ignorance and failings showing. And I apologize for that. I hope it's understood that I was simply giving my historical insight into something that related to the question being posed in this post, and that I was not trying to mislead anyone or disperse "the blame" for not implementing new deities "earlier." I certainly wouldn't have openly disclosed that we'd dropped the ball two years ago on this very subject if I was embarrassed by it. But I'm not. If we were perfect, I wouldn't be here. (It'd be a little too boring for me. )

I also apologize for publishing this in a public manner, and I sincerely, sincerely, hope that you don't take it as me trying to bully you or anything Comments Only. I promise you that I don't mean it like that, and I will apologize a hundred times more if you do feel this is hostile or upsetting in any way. This is more of a public, general address that you've simply given me the opportunity to make. Indeed, I would thank you for bringing it up in the first place, even offhand, as it does afford me an opportunity to address an ongoing narrative that continues to bother me: Not a narrative you have specifically invented, but something you've alluded to, as it's been going on for a long time (as far back as I can remember) -- and some people seem to have some continuing trust issues with regards to the server's staff even after multiple changes in leaderships. While we're not perfect, I also hope nobody truly thinks we're out to cause issues for our players. We obviously can't exist for very long without our players. And I'd want to address any concerns people have with either the server's staff, our way of doing things, or me personally (as I'm one of only a handful of staff members who have been on staff for pretty much all of the leadership changes over the years), rather than let misunderstandings fester unanswered. Plenty of people have left BG with a sour taste in their mouths, and while I know there's no such thing as pleasing everyone, I also don't want that for anyone if it can at all be prevented. I love this place too much to enjoy the idea of some people hating it. And I certainly don't want my post above to be taken as a reason for anyone to mistrust the server's staff.

If there are problems, and they're brought to my attention, I'm going to try to resolve them. But I'm also not going to be able to fix everything. With regards to content in particular, I'm an admin who doesn't even know how to stage an update. I'd be lost if I tried. So everyone also has to keep realistic expectations of what we can accomplish, as individuals and as a collective "staff" group, because we're never going to be a gaming utopia. Indeed, what's "a great idea" for one person might be "the worst idea in the world" for others, as has been born out by some of the more controversial content changes we've had over the last year (several of which have had both avid advocates and outspoken detractors, neither wrong or right, but both equally believing in their position).

Anyway, the long and the short of it is that I'd ask anyone with issues with the way the server's run to please bring them to me so that I can be aware of them, and, if I agree that it is an issue, try to resolve them. If I don't agree that the problem you see is a problem, I will tell you so without judgement, but at least you'll have tried to make things better for yourself or your friends (and then you can blame me for not listening instead of yourself for not saying anything). Naturally, I'd prefer specifics and examples to vague "you're doing it wrong" PMs, because "you're doing it wrong" doesn't really give me a place to start doing it right!

[7threalm]

I dont even know why your apoliising but oh well i guess some people...zzzz

is this cause you said you like to see something in game....hell i would like to see 1000 different things..

it was just a suggestion and there nothing wrong with that..

hell talk to tfunke and the land of dead projects

the qc team is just meanies, but they do their unpaid jobs

[chad878262]

the qc team is just meanies, but they do their unpaid jobs

Sticks and stones man...

[NegInfinity]

Posting this here for any comments or feedback, as desired, to prevent me from derailing the original thread:

//opinion
Response:
While DM team is incredibly responsive, on bgtscc, getting anything on a script-wise implemented is nigh impossible, same applies to getting source code access. For example, to submit a fix, one needs to become a "developer", which implies certain responsibilities, and this is bureaucracy.

So whoever "comments only" was, he or she is right.

Also, in my opinion "but they're unpaid volunteers" is not a good argument. "Unpaid volunteers" means people are doing this for fun. And that's it. It is not really a good excuse for a feature taking 5 years to be implemented, or for development process not being streamlined and not working as well-oiled machine.

Unpaid or not, the right idea is to aim at "triple a" studio workflow, or at least at efficient studio workflow.

Nothing personal and no offense intended.

[Valefort]

The explanation is simple, there were people willing to do parts of the work but no one to do it entirely, thus it stalled. No ill will involved anywhere.

[NegInfinity]

The explanation is simple, there were people willing to do parts of the work but no one to do it entirely, thus it stalled. No ill will involved anywhere.

You guys need a bugtracker + git repository. You know, the usual thing where there's a list of tasks to be done, people who are assigned to them, etc. Basically, the way opensource projects do this.

That's because like it or not, "unpaid volunteers" or not, you're dealing with a coding project. So might as well streamline process of making something happen.

[mrm3ntalist]

The explanation is simple, there were people willing to do parts of the work but no one to do it entirely, thus it stalled. No ill will involved anywhere.

You guys need a bugtracker + git repository ( done ). You know, the usual thing where there's a list of tasks to be done, people who are assigned to them, etc. Basically, the way opensource projects do this.

That's because like it or not, "unpaid volunteers" or not, you're dealing with a coding project. So might as well streamline process of making something happen.

Things are not the way you describe them. Its actually what Valefort described. I ll quote it again with underlined words for emphasis

The explanation is simple, there were people willing to do parts of the work but no one to do it entirely, thus it stalled. No ill will involved anywhere.

[Maecius]

Posting this here for any comments or feedback, as desired, to prevent me from derailing the original thread:

//opinion
Response:
While DM team is incredibly responsive, on bgtscc, getting anything on a script-wise implemented is nigh impossible, same applies to getting source code access. For example, to submit a fix, one needs to become a "developer", which implies certain responsibilities, and this is bureaucracy.

So whoever "comments only" was, he or she is right.

Also, in my opinion "but they're unpaid volunteers" is not a good argument. "Unpaid volunteers" means people are doing this for fun. And that's it. It is not really a good excuse for a feature taking 5 years to be implemented, or for development process not being streamlined and not working as well-oiled machine.

Unpaid or not, the right idea is to aim at "triple a" studio workflow, or at least at efficient studio workflow.

Nothing personal and no offense intended.

Thanks Neg. No offense taken. This conversation isn't meant to be a defense of our management of the server. More of an inquiry to the public about what could (reasonably) be improved, as well as an invitation to ask questions about things that might bother people so that I can be open about how we manage things.

It's true that development is slower than DMing, but that's in large part because implementation is a one-man deep project. Only Endelyon stages the updates. We could have ten thousand devs and the work they upload wouldn't go live any faster than it is.

We tried to have two people doing it for a time (Endelyon and Duster47), but the issue we ran into was that they would unintentionally overwrite each other's work or reverse a previous update because they didn't have exactly the same working module, etc.

I think we're still putting updates out at a faster rate than we've ever done before of course.

The old process was that the devs simply threw their work up and Luna sewed it in when and where he could. Over the summer, Endelyon moved us over to an SVN commit system to keep all the devs in better alignment with each other, and working from the same canvas.

While it's true that to do dev work on BG you do mostly have to volunteer to join the actual dev team, unless you just throw code at us and let us use it as we will like ComeAndSee sometimes does, and that's largely (the way I understand it) to protect the integrity of the module.

I'll admit some of my answers here may be opaque, because server technical maintenance is something I've only ready made an effort at learning this last spring, when Luna disappeared, and it's all still very new to me.

Anyway, thank you for the food for thought. We'll consider ways we can continue to streamline the process (without making it feel like "work" work for everyone who puts in the blood, sweat, and tears to keep the server updating).

[NegInfinity]

We tried to have two people doing it for a time (Endelyon and Duster47), but the issue we ran into was that they would unintentionally overwrite each other's work or reverse a previous update because they didn't have exactly the same working module, etc.

And this is what git repository is for. It allows branching and experimenting without overwriting each other's work.

https://www.atlassian.com/git/tutorials ... git-branch

[Valefort]

There is a SVN repository so the overwriting issues are mostly behind now, save the occasional mistakes, that part of the process is streamlined enough I think

However from what I observed from QC point of view and now from dev side, developers on BG pick what they want to work on. Volunteering is not compatible with assigning bugs/tasks to people all the time, especially since no one has the authority to do that there is no way to streamline that part of the process. It relies on good will.

It has obvious flaws, some projects can be stalled forever because no one wants to do it ! Fortunately the occasional critical tasks are still done because no one enjoys big issues on the server they play on, or unhappy people.

[NegInfinity]

Things are not the way you describe them. Its actually what

Sigh....

SVN is not Git, and has inferior branching support.

The repository is not visible, there are no mentions of it anywhere online, and no guidelines to gaining access, no submission guidelines, nothing. I did find my own thread where I asked to put the code under version control.

My opinion is based on past attempts to interact with dev side of things, which were mostly a negative experience. If you don't like the opinion, do something about the process.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

We only recently have had the team wholly working in SVN, a tool that save for a few was not previously used, and while we can support branching (which we will under a different workflow regarding area and scripting efforts), the additional features of SVN has been backburnered in the current workflow in favor of ensuring that everyone is on the same page, at least at the current state. Git would be a good alternative, though we've started down this path, and I'm in the middle of writing our official toolset plugin that hooks to our workflow, we're not likely to diverge from SVN for the foreseeable future.

With Endelyon's SVN implementation, as Valefort pointed out, conflicts in updates and moving up and down implementation paths is easier. This helps tremendously, and was given the go-ahead toward a server side tool that is tailored to BGTSCC's environment and can permit a few of the development team that have tested the commits to roll the server up or down on the chain in a matter of seconds, backups included. That way new updates that we know are fit for the module can be integrated in the middle of a reset, and only three clicks of a mouse.

TRAC/Redmine was already brought up for discussion, but as it stands, the forum has a historical backlog of issue tracking that we won't likely spend the time trying to migrate, as the effort is better invested as is on the game module.

The repository is not a public one. The NWN community is rife with history of forked projects because of heated emotions, splintering communities for little gain. We don't have an interest in repeating that. Before I rejoined the team, I had spent a good deal of time assisting various members on the staff and submitting up fixes, some which made it in, some did not.

[Ariella]

While it's true that to do dev work on BG you do mostly have to volunteer to join the actual dev team, unless you just throw code at us and let us use it as we will like ComeAndSee sometimes does, and that's largely (the way I understand it) to protect the integrity of the module.

I think this is something BG should work on changing, A regularly released builders mod goes a long way for having the community contribute content. From my own experience over on Sigil players are often happy to help contribute, Most of the time its relatively well done. It does require a builder to check over the work, However its still less overall work then a dev developing it first hand. Further a lot of people who are not confident to jump right into a dev role are more inclined after they have contributed a few pieces.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I think this is something BG should work on changing, A regularly released builders mod goes a long way for having the community contribute content. From my own experience over on Sigil players are often happy to help contribute, Most of the time its relatively well done. It does require a builder to check over the work, However its still less overall work then a dev developing it first hand. Further a lot of people who are not confident to jump right into a dev role are more inclined after they have contributed a few pieces.

Something we have trouble with internally is non performant code. BGTSCC has a considerably large scriptbase that has had a varying degree of habits come and go that conflict, or have less than ideal outputs. One of the attempts we've had was to run the script accelerator as a quick ditch solution, and even that crashes out. We're not against community submissions, every one of them are considered especially if the code is authored, it saves us time, but having to constantly refactor, train to our standards, and expect contributions to know the nuances of the NVM isn't ideal, at least to me. I didn't do it for my employees, I don't think I could spend the time doing it outside of a work environment either but that's just me.

[Martius]

The staff works on everything in their freetime. As long as these people don't get paid, nobody can ever demand anything from them. NWN 1, 2 servers were always based on the good will of the Admins, WBs, DMs and players of course, who wanted to create their own module as a place, where they spent some funny moments after the school and work. Thanks to this conception, many great modules could even be created and keep functional.

As far as I know, the number of WBs and DMs isn't limited, so anyone who meet the requirements can apply for these posts. Last but not least, you don't need to be the WB to make some cool location for the module.

In my own opinion it is just unfair to complain, that something is not done and it should be done, something takes too long etc. These complaints can only annoy their recipients.