Monthly 100% RCR

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Alexander Holgart
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Alexander Holgart »

Easy to say when you don't have wasted feats to remove in a server that throws boosted enemies on your face.

I agree on the fact that it will be abused to some degree, but what of people like me that have genuine small fixes to deal with?

I'm here to rp, not to grind 10 levels back again to change one feat.

I am sure that a way in between can be found. Like one free RCR per character or something.

Edit: I should have avoided that mistake, yes, but there is so much stuff to learn in this server even in terms of items you can buy that can literally change your build entirely and I don't have that much experience to know every little thing. Should have I asked? Yes, perhaps, but I can't really ask people to make me a full build.
If you mess up your build it's your fault. I never seen a mechanic like this in pnp and I don't think it should be here because the integrity of a PC is put at risk.
I've never been and I've never played with a DM that would not allow me to tweak a mistake on a build.

But I guess it's my fault and I have no right to complain, using that logic.
Last edited by Alexander Holgart on Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Hoihe
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Hoihe »

yyj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:12 am Having this would eliminate any sense of progression and work that makes RPGs feel good.

I feel this will just kill a fun aspect of the game in favor to cathering todays expectancy of people that want everything now and instant gratification.

Of course it will be abused, and people are going to find out new ways of exploiting this like RCRing to certain build and then changing it depending on what event they are on or who they are fighting, some builds maybe just change skills , one week focus on disguise, then next week on hide/ms then next week on spot and detection.

Having 100% rcr always on would kill a big portion of the roleplaying and what makes an rpg game good.

If you mess up your build it's your fault. I never seen a mechanic like this in pnp and I don't think it should be here because the integrity of a PC is put at risk.

I know some social servers have been used as an example but remember that this is an RPG server.
PhB II for 3.5E has systems very similar to RCR.
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Planehopper
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Planehopper »

Dragonslayer wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:37 am
I'd have to agree with the above. I have too little faith in players to not abuse a monthly RCR, or even a quarterly RCR. I can imagine players optimizing for stealth one period, then going full PvP the next, or going social skills for DM plotlines. Internal consistency is what's needed for a RP server, and RCR even as it is can be jarring and game breaking that internal consistency.

Could people not abuse it, and use it to fix their little build problems? Sure, it's possible. But give people an inch, and they'll ask for a mile; as is apparent by offering a limited RCR meant for retired characters and then having players ask for a monthly RCR for unretired characters instead. It's the literal definition of a slippery slope.
Wow. That's a pretty cynical look at our playerbase. I am certainly glad that staff as a whole doesn't share your poor opinion of those that play here.

This server has long been touted as one that "caters to all play styles", and while I've certainly lamented the fact over the years, it is always curious how the sentiment is thrown out the window when convenient.

You want a greater challenge? You have the tools to make it so. You want to re-level your epic character when you messed up a build? You have tools to use to do that.

But arguing against something because you want others to struggle or enjoy things "your way" isn't really what this place is about. Nor has it ever been.
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Steve
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Steve »

As this conversation has been going on, I have come to a single option that might just make everyone happy:

One single 100% RCR, per PC “lifetime.”

I could envision it that at creation, each toon is granted a non-trade-able 100% RCR Token (they already exist). If you spend it, you spend it. One time only. If you (do-me) up your one time use to repair mistakes, then you are stuck with the 50% after 20 RCR option (as it is now).

Additionally, if you goof AT ALL with this system, no DM/Admin help should be asked not excepted. This frees up staff from dealing with our dumb asses.
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by yyj »

Alexander Holgart wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:18 am Easy to say when you don't have wasted feats to remove in a server that throws boosted enemies on your face.

I agree on the fact that it will be abused to some degree, but what of people like me that have genuine small fixes to deal with?

I'm here to rp, not to grind 10 levels back again to change one feat.

I am sure that a way in between can be found. Like one free RCR per character or something.

Edit: I should have avoided that mistake, yes, but there is so much stuff to learn in this server even in terms of items you can buy that can literally change your build entirely and I don't have that much experience to know every little thing. Should have I asked? Yes, perhaps, but I can't really ask people to make me a full build.
If you mess up your build it's your fault. I never seen a mechanic like this in pnp and I don't think it should be here because the integrity of a PC is put at risk.
I've never been and I've never played with a DM that would not allow me to tweak a mistake on a build.

But I guess it's my fault and I have no right to complain, using that logic.
Well it depends, my DM for 16 years always checked our sheets before starting playing and always helped us out if we messed up on our builds, same thing while leveling up. He always wanted us to deal with the consequences of our choices but was flexible in it that he always gave us enough resources that we were fully informed of how everything works, he then always took our player sheets with him and wouldn't allow any changes at all during game.

Surely some tables allow you to RCR characters over and over and over, and that is fine. But officially, the way to rebuild, in DnD was by sacrificing experience, I think Runa Hoihe quoted that somewhere so maybe she can point it out in one of the sourcebooks. But that kind of thing was basically deleveling and sacrificing EXP.

If you are here to RP, then why do levels even matter? :D
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matelener
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by matelener »

That's a cool idea for a gold sink. 1 000 000 for an RCR token :D
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Alexander Holgart
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Alexander Holgart »

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yyj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:23 pm
Alexander Holgart wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:18 am Easy to say when you don't have wasted feats to remove in a server that throws boosted enemies on your face.

I agree on the fact that it will be abused to some degree, but what of people like me that have genuine small fixes to deal with?

I'm here to rp, not to grind 10 levels back again to change one feat.

I am sure that a way in between can be found. Like one free RCR per character or something.

Edit: I should have avoided that mistake, yes, but there is so much stuff to learn in this server even in terms of items you can buy that can literally change your build entirely and I don't have that much experience to know every little thing. Should have I asked? Yes, perhaps, but I can't really ask people to make me a full build.
If you mess up your build it's your fault. I never seen a mechanic like this in pnp and I don't think it should be here because the integrity of a PC is put at risk.
I've never been and I've never played with a DM that would not allow me to tweak a mistake on a build.

But I guess it's my fault and I have no right to complain, using that logic.
Well it depends, my DM for 16 years always checked our sheets before starting playing and always helped us out if we messed up on our builds, same thing while leveling up. He always wanted us to deal with the consequences of our choices but was flexible in it that he always gave us enough resources that we were fully informed of how everything works, he then always took our player sheets with him and wouldn't allow any changes at all during game.

Surely some tables allow you to RCR characters over and over and over, and that is fine. But officially, the way to rebuild, in DnD was by sacrificing experience, I think Runa Hoihe quoted that somewhere so maybe she can point it out in one of the sourcebooks. But that kind of thing was basically deleveling and sacrificing EXP.

If you are here to RP, then why do levels even matter? :D
I'll assume that you know the answer to that question, and the question was just a bait attempt.
As this conversation has been going on, I have come to a single option that might just make everyone happy:

One single 100% RCR, per PC “lifetime.”
Yes please.
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FallingStar
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by FallingStar »

yyj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:12 am Having this would eliminate any sense of progression and work that makes RPGs feel good.

I feel this will just kill a fun aspect of the game in favor to cathering todays expectancy of people that want everything now and instant gratification.

Of course it will be abused, and people are going to find out new ways of exploiting this like RCRing to certain build and then changing it depending on what event they are on or who they are fighting, some builds maybe just change skills , one week focus on disguise, then next week on hide/ms then next week on spot and detection.

Having 100% rcr always on would kill a big portion of the roleplaying and what makes an rpg game good.

If you mess up your build it's your fault. I never seen a mechanic like this in pnp and I don't think it should be here because the integrity of a PC is put at risk.

I know some social servers have been used as an example but remember that this is an RPG server.
...what integrity? We have some of the heavyweight RPers here pushing for a monthly 100% RcR, so it wouldn't erode RP quality or storytelling. Limiting the system to a monthly basis would prevent anyone from using it for specific events. There's nothing wrong with allowing players to experiment with different builds for the same concept, and the fact that pnp fails horribly in this area is a glaring flaw in its lack of flexibility.

That's why I've literally never played with a DM who disallowed such, and it's generally the DM's call. They did let us tweak our builds within reason, especially if there was an issue. Because being rigid is (p00pie).

As for the people who would abuse the system, who cares? They already didn't take immersion seriously if they go from rogue to sorcerer in a day without any sort of RP arc, so it affects nothing.

The belief that if you mess up your build it's your fault, well, that's as elitist and snobby as it comes. There is inconsistent information on the sources, and not everyone is an expert or even good at it.
Last edited by FallingStar on Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Hoihe
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Hoihe »

Dragonslayer wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:37 am
yyj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:12 am Having this would eliminate any sense of progression and work that makes RPGs feel good.

I feel this will just kill a fun aspect of the game in favor to cathering todays expectancy of people that want everything now and instant gratification.

Of course it will be abused, and people are going to find out new ways of exploiting this like RCRing to certain build and then changing it depending on what event they are on or who they are fighting, some builds maybe just change skills , one week focus on disguise, then next week on hide/ms then next week on spot and detection.

Having 100% rcr always on would kill a big portion of the roleplaying and what makes an rpg game good.

If you mess up your build it's your fault. I never seen a mechanic like this in pnp and I don't think it should be here because the integrity of a PC is put at risk.

I know some social servers have been used as an example but remember that this is an RPG server.
I'd have to agree with the above. I have too little faith in players to not abuse a monthly RCR, or even a quarterly RCR. I can imagine players optimizing for stealth one period, then going full PvP the next, or going social skills for DM plotlines. Internal consistency is what's needed for a RP server, and RCR even as it is can be jarring and game breaking that internal consistency.

Could people not abuse it, and use it to fix their little build problems? Sure, it's possible. But give people an inch, and they'll ask for a mile; as is apparent by offering a limited RCR meant for retired characters and then having players ask for a monthly RCR for unretired characters instead. It's the literal definition of a slippery slope.

Do the work, use the test module offered here on the site for building. If you have a question about a feat, ask someone who's taken it. Heck, we have an entire QC team, don't we? PM one of them and see if they can answer it.


W.R.T "Just use test modules" - doesn't work. What might work in test modules won't work on the server. One of the primary reasons can be endurance - will you use the test module to simulate a hour long or two dungeon run without chance to rest?

FallingStar wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:01 pm
yyj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:12 am Having this would eliminate any sense of progression and work that makes RPGs feel good.

I feel this will just kill a fun aspect of the game in favor to cathering todays expectancy of people that want everything now and instant gratification.

Of course it will be abused, and people are going to find out new ways of exploiting this like RCRing to certain build and then changing it depending on what event they are on or who they are fighting, some builds maybe just change skills , one week focus on disguise, then next week on hide/ms then next week on spot and detection.

Having 100% rcr always on would kill a big portion of the roleplaying and what makes an rpg game good.

If you mess up your build it's your fault. I never seen a mechanic like this in pnp and I don't think it should be here because the integrity of a PC is put at risk.

I know some social servers have been used as an example but remember that this is an RPG server.
...what integrity? We have some of the heavyweight RPers here pushing for a monthly 100% RcR, so it wouldn't erode RP quality or storytelling. Limiting the system to a monthly basis would prevent anyone from using it for specific events. There's nothing wrong with allowing players to experiment with different builds for the same concept, and the fact that pnp fails horribly in this area is a glaring flaw in its lack of flexibility.

The belief that if you mess up your build it's your fault, well, that's as elitist and snobby as it comes. There is inconsistent information on the sources, and not everyone is an expert or even good at it.
W.R.T build concept - that's another thing: you might have a specific theme/idea in mind, but you can get that same concept running with wildly different class set ups - some viable for our endurance-favouring server, some completely unplayable. Both RP the same, both have essentially the same lore - one is playable, the other isn't. If both class-setups support the person's RP, is it truly a drastic change to maybe potentially pick different base classes to convey the same idea? (One super simple case is Swash vs Fighter vs Rogue. All 3 can support the same RP)
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by TravelingVagrant »

I've read through some things here and I honestly I still maintain that a stiff cost of entry would be enough to deter 90% of players from abusing this system.

Let's say you're level 26, and want to RCR. You're 16 levels above the free RCR period, and realize that you can't pick the feat you want - thus making your entire build not work. Yes, you could have asked, but I think it is incredibly short-sighted to think that every player has friends they are close enough with to feel comfortable sharing the details of their build with.

The base cost for an RCR token is, say 100k. The system detects that you are 16 levels above ten, thus charges you an additional say.. 5% per level. Thus, you now pay 180k total.

With the recent reduction in easy, farmable loot, it will take most players a considerable amount of time to accumulate this amount of gold. And to the players that have stockpiled millions - RCRing was probably never an issue for them, given how long they have been playing on the server for.

A gold sink is needed to help balance the economy, and not only that, will provide a barrier of entry to prevent abuse. And as has been mentioned - if someone wants to go from ROG30 to SOR30, they probably weren't that invested in RP anyway. And if they were, the few and far between cases of abuse can be dealt with as they arise.

At the end of the day - lots of MMOs have this issue of 'I suffered like this, you should have to too!' that is inherently toxic to modernizing a game and providing player character customization.

You used to have to RCR to get new faces. Is there anyone complaining that you don't have to do that anymore?
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Steve
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Steve »

I personally don’t think making 100% RCR have a cost is a good thing.

I’ve been on this Server for over 10 years. The ONLY time I’ve had more than 500k coin IN TOTAL across all my active toons was when many years ago the player AC81 temporarily quit the Server and blindsided me with a gift of 1 million coin before he left.

I absolutely abhor the grind lootz mindset of this Server for any sort of progression, and creating a “beneficial” system only accessed by a bullshit OOC activity, doesn’t help this Server maintain its “RP” signature one single bit.

Nonetheless, we can offer ideas and debate the situation as much as we want, but until Zanniej, Boo and or Dialectic get involved in this issue, we’re all just whistling dixie.
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by yyj »

Alexander Holgart wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:49 pm
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yyj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:23 pm
Alexander Holgart wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:18 am Easy to say when you don't have wasted feats to remove in a server that throws boosted enemies on your face.

I agree on the fact that it will be abused to some degree, but what of people like me that have genuine small fixes to deal with?

I'm here to rp, not to grind 10 levels back again to change one feat.

I am sure that a way in between can be found. Like one free RCR per character or something.

Edit: I should have avoided that mistake, yes, but there is so much stuff to learn in this server even in terms of items you can buy that can literally change your build entirely and I don't have that much experience to know every little thing. Should have I asked? Yes, perhaps, but I can't really ask people to make me a full build.



I've never been and I've never played with a DM that would not allow me to tweak a mistake on a build.

But I guess it's my fault and I have no right to complain, using that logic.
Well it depends, my DM for 16 years always checked our sheets before starting playing and always helped us out if we messed up on our builds, same thing while leveling up. He always wanted us to deal with the consequences of our choices but was flexible in it that he always gave us enough resources that we were fully informed of how everything works, he then always took our player sheets with him and wouldn't allow any changes at all during game.

Surely some tables allow you to RCR characters over and over and over, and that is fine. But officially, the way to rebuild, in DnD was by sacrificing experience, I think Runa Hoihe quoted that somewhere so maybe she can point it out in one of the sourcebooks. But that kind of thing was basically deleveling and sacrificing EXP.

If you are here to RP, then why do levels even matter? :D
I'll assume that you know the answer to that question, and the question was just a bait attempt.
As this conversation has been going on, I have come to a single option that might just make everyone happy:

One single 100% RCR, per PC “lifetime.”
Yes please.
No clue what you mean by "baiting" but my point still stands.

It took me around 7 or 8 months to get my first character to level 30 while playing sporadically. Later I rerolled it again and ended up with a new level 20 character (since rcr means retired character reroll, not fix my build) and took me around 3 or 4 months to get back to 30.

Never worrier by my level because all I wanted was to rp, you want to be 30 to survive a DM event? You don't need to because DMs balance encounters, this is a roleplaying server so you know your character isn't supposed to win every battle and kill every monster like in some other action rpg, etc.

Leveling a character is investment and time, grow and evolve, feats and skills sometimes represent years of training or knowledge or a certain class feature.

Again, I have no clue why this is such a heated debate, just agree to disagree rather than "baiting" whatever that is supposed to mean.
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Ibnshaitan1 »

Over 2 months ago it was announced that we will have a 100% RCR. While that is starting to feel a bit like fake news at this point I am sure it will roll around eventually. Several of us made the point that the DMs should do it now while the server is stable rather than after the split. That was apparently not thought well of. This may be a blessing to everyone on this thread. Rather than lamenting the lack of frequent RCRs do a little planning. Work with the NWN2 Character builder (google it to find it if you are unfamiliar) and build variations. Get your build where you think it should be. Plan how it will fit in with your RP. Many of my characters have one name, and will now have a second after RCR, but their story can continue if I choose. Use the time productively.

The DMs have talked about implementing a crafting system. maybe a year...maybe two...maybe more. It has been 2 years since the last 100 RCR. So get your toons set and play on. Another will come eventually and mistakes can once again be corrected and the story lines continue. In the end nothing is going to be forever so enjoy the ride.
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