Monthly 100% RCR

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lum
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by lum »

Quite the discussion here, lol.

I've got two stories myself in which I show what could be a downside, and one that could show an advantage. Both are related to the rp side of a character in this.

Story one :
Briefly I tried another server and I've encountered there something that would be a concern after an rcr on BG. Albeit not as hard as on that other place, still...
On said server reaching 30 is out of the question. 10 is within reach and only the real veterans are 12th. Crazy huh? But I found out firsthand why that is. It took me days to figure out how to get from level 1 to level 2, and a couple of resets on quests too. Then,... when I finally hit 2nd level, which was important as I then got my first cleric level and I could initiate rp as my character was storywise set as an priest, something frustrating happened. A dm ran an invasion event in the middle of the city, where at that point only high level characters were present (vets). And well, me. My character died within 30 seconds, it was raised once, and then died again and I was sent to their death map. I lost so much xp that I dropped back to level 1 (yeah, that is possible there), and suddenly I was no cleric anymore. A bummer for rp. Though real diehards may like the challenge there.

But you see, I always like to actually have a character's feats and specialties to rp them. I will never rp a skill or talent a character may have that is connected to a feat or skill, until I have said feat or skill or class. For example, I'd never rp my tech-character having a gondsman until I have actually the techsmith level that gives me access to said companion. I won rp that my character can create bombs or elixirs or can use whatever skill until I actually got access build-wise.
Lol, I have even taken feats which mechanically (all crafting feats) dont mean anything on this server, but I taken them just to rp them and in case should a dm ever inquire if my character actually possesses such talent ;)

The above are reasons why it's for me important to get back to certain (class) levels again, asap.

Story two :
On the other hand, one time I have used the hit of the xp penalty as a chance to change an existing character during an ic plot. Kitty used to be a warlock but due ic stuff, story, plot and help from other toons, she got rid of that pact. It left her behind weakened (which is what lvl 30 -> 20 represents), and she had to try and learn and trust on herself again (which was the slight change of the build, adding another class and the process of getting back to 30). This is perhaps where said rcr penalty can be used as a benefit.

But yeah, I dont have the time anymore I used to have, and like I said, the road from 20 to 30 feels like the longest.

PS: no, not all my characters have to be level 30 asap. In these 8-9 years I been here I still only own 2 level 30's on this server. I got maybe 2 around level 27, and most are in the range of 10-21. Only a few are there because of rcr reasons, lol.
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realayer
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by realayer »

RP is not just about campfire chatters but also about playstyles and adventures. Players should be allowed to fix their builds without feeling the punishment of doing so and feel satisfied about adventuring with their PC.

IMO the demand of a regular 100% RCR implementation is accentuated by the slow progression beyond L20. While there is no rush to L30, character progression, either from RP or leveling, does contribute to player satisfaction. I, for example, return to this server around 5 months ago after leaving for 4 years. Back then I have a L24 character. Eager to try some new stuff and fear for a broken build after an absence of 4 years, I was willing to RCR'd it despite the loss of 50% exp and RCR'd one more time to fix my build between now and then. Now, I am just L26 after 5 months. Like Blackbird points out, I feel that investing a long time in my character but resulting in such a little progression amounts to disrespecting players' time.

I am not saying that 100% RCR should be a monthly thing, but a yearly one sounds like a reasonable implementation that would make many, if not all, players happy.
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Steve
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Steve »

How can something that is offered as a free tool, a gift, in whatever implementation, be considered “disrespecting player’s time?”

Is it also disrespecting player’s time that DMs do not stay online 24/7 to support player RP? Is it also disrespecting player’s time when a Dev doesn’t implement a new Feat or update an existing one to the players exact wishes?

Do you want a Server that is only full of epic level Characters? Do you want a Server filled with endgame Builds that can literally do nothing but campfire RP or rinse-repeat loot grinds, unless a DM gives attention? Do you want a Server where once a Player invests in a level 30 PC, they can infinitely make new Level 30 PCs, every month, or every year? That players once with a Level 30 no longer have to take any risks IG, can constantly “upgrade” to more powerful Feats, adjust the very innate nature of the Character on a whim because you’re given the regular ability to “wipe the Character Sheet clean?!?”

BGTSCC is a public, free to play Server. But it does have a single cost: real life time (investment). Without this “price,” what you get it of it wouldn’t have any value.

The current implementation of the RCR is a gift. All it takes is making a mental change in what you expect you are “owed,” and see what wonderful things you are given (do have at your disposal).
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Hoihe »

I feel easier RCR would exacerbate an already annoying issue I run into.

I find a character I haven't met before. I RP with them for a week or so and enjoy it.

Suddenly they don't show up at all anymore, and that player is now playing their 5th alt in a row.
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by realayer »

I am grateful that BGTSCC is a public and free to play server. I just tried to offer my views on RCR and on how players' experience can be improved. Not everyone have to agree with my views, but these are my opinions.

People who want to exploit will exploit regardless of any restrictions in place. People who want to have an instant L30 characters will exploit the 100% RCR implementation. However, for those who have legitimate needs (fixing builds, feats, etc) for it, there are reasons for 100% RCR to exist. As I mentioned, I am willing to RCR with xp loss to fix my build and character after 4 years of absence and numerous changes happened in this server. But I feel that there are better solution than just take the xp loss for the time I invested to regain that loss. Perhaps not everyone has the RL resources to be able to enjoy this server.

I am actually all for limiting PC level to just 15 or 20. The progression in L1-20 is much more manageable and fun than the epic levels.
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Steve »

However, for those who have legitimate needs (fixing builds, feats, etc) for it
Did you ever try petitioning to the DMs/Admins for a rebuild based on these legitimate needs? If an advertised, incorrect function of the Server was made and a player ended up with something broken or not working as advertised, there is a precedence for one-time help. But the reason REALLY has to be legitimate, and not just a mistake (because those we need to be responsible for ourselves).
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realayer
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by realayer »

Steve wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:16 am Did you ever try petitioning to the DMs/Admins for a rebuild based on these legitimate needs? If an advertised, incorrect function of the Server was made and a player ended up with something broken or not working as advertised, there is a precedence for one-time help. But the reason REALLY has to be legitimate, and not just a mistake (because those we need to be responsible for ourselves).
I have no obligation to answer your questions. TBH I feel uncomfortable to continue our exchanges as your questions and statements imply that I am/was exploiting the system and irresponsible for my mistakes (if there is/was any) and feel pointless to continue as my concerns are being neglected. I will just stop it here.
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Steve »

I’m honestly sorry you feel that way, but I never assumed or accused you of exploiting mechanics or being irresponsible. We all make build mistakes, and it sucks! But where a choice was made in building though mislead by misinformation on official sources—this Forum or the wiki—there then IS legitimate reason to speak with the DMs/Admins.

It’s just not a guarantee. But at least it exists as an option, yes?

The alternative of having 100% RCR monthly or with any regularity simply posses more problems than solutions, as I think is evident in the many responses in this thread, and many made BY Staff.

This is why if you or anyone does feel they were legitimately mislead, there IS the avenue to petition your particular case. And that is a good thing!
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Valefort
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Valefort »

If a mechanic doesn't work as described it needs to be mentioned, and bumped if no answer comes. Then you either wait for a fix or ask for a refund if the difference between reality and description is too big. If everything works as described but you want to change something then it's on you, changes are not fixes.

Another point here is using the RCR because you screwed up a build by picking the wrong feat last level, or in the last levels. Adding an NPC in the Nexus to dock exp from you (barring some class combinations and with some checks to limit frequency and shenaningans) is no problem and you won't have to wait for a DM.

@realayer Regarding "disrespecting player's time", in bold, I really do hope that was written hastily without much thinking.
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Ithilan
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Ithilan »

There has been so much added to the server over the years.

I find cosmetics or tweak of skills just as viable a RCR reason as a misclick while leveling up. Every one that wants to RCR usually has a legitimate reason and that primary factor is: Am I having fun?

And the answer is often that you could have more fun, that tinkering with builds and tweaking your characters is fun. That adapting to the server, both RP you engage in and the life your character takes, and enjoying many of the amazing updates from the art team. Well RCR serves that function, since the hairdresser in game sucks and we need to make a bio edit and additional character to tweak that part of our customization.

Truth is most games these days have options to alter your gameplay or cosmetics with out having to start all over. This game is old and clunky and RCR is very much something that has saved BG from having a near non existent player base.

So would it be so bad to give people a few days time window to embrace some of all these new changes? To get a chance to try the new class, finally get a more fitting head for your character, or reflecting that you spend a month learning Jotun or delving in to spellcrafting, thus wanting to reflect it on your sheet?

For me its a win win, since it would mean people that other wise would be leaving or find less value in returning to the game and server I should say, would now perhaps have a rekindled interest. Either in tweaking their main, rolling a new alt or what not.

Sitting on a lot of characters myself and more to come. I can say theres only so much I can stomach of 1-2 attacks per round gameplay in the gibberling, goblin, orc & xvart areas. Most builds start being really unique just pre-epics and most builds look the same from 1-10.

#FreeRCRorRiot :twisted: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Valefort »

I'd argue that the fact that newer games allow you to completely change a character is bonkers and a bad idea in an RP environment where you want to maintain some believability. On the other hand I certainly do agree that tweaking is fun and sometimes even needed to reflect some RP, but between the 50% RCR and the possibility to remove some exp (through DMs for now but eventually though an NPC) I think things are quite covered.

Overall I can't help but think that people wanting a 100% RCR do not like the PvE environment much, if at all, and want to skip it... but then why do you need a level 30 character for ?
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Blackbird »

Hoihe wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:27 am I feel easier RCR would exacerbate an already annoying issue I run into.

I find a character I haven't met before. I RP with them for a week or so and enjoy it.

Suddenly they don't show up at all anymore, and that player is now playing their 5th alt in a row.
Baldur's Gate is a major destination on the coast and part of an overland trading route. The number of adventurers that pass through it on a regular basis is probably pretty high; if I saw the same people all the time, it might be cause to worry that something has made the roads and shipping lanes dangerous. :?

We should also keep in mind that players are not captives of our desire to RP with them; they have their own motives and needs and if that means creating a new character, well, why not?
Valefort wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:39 pm Overall I can't help but think that people wanting a 100% RCR do not like the PvE environment much, if at all, and want to skip it... but then why do you need a level 30 character for ?
DM events, I would imagine. As lum noted, it's not a great feeling when you end up in an event with one of the multitude of level 30 or high-20s characters while considerably lower level and the DM is balancing the event around them. This is not a dig at the DMs, but just a fact of the server life given its age, the small team and the leveling system. I can see new players wanting to participate in large server plot events and being a bit put out by the fact that you can't reasonably do that without tripping over multiple level 20-30 players around which large portions of the event will likely be balanced.

I can't speak to PvE as I generally enjoy it so long as the locale changes reasonably often.
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Ithilan
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Ithilan »

Valefort wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:39 pm I'd argue that the fact that newer games allow you to completely change a character is bonkers and a bad idea in an RP environment where you want to maintain some believability. On the other hand I certainly do agree that tweaking is fun and sometimes even needed to reflect some RP, but between the 50% RCR and the possibility to remove some exp (through DMs for now but eventually though an NPC) I think things are quite covered.

Overall I can't help but think that people wanting a 100% RCR do not like the PvE environment much, if at all, and want to skip it... but then why do you need a level 30 character for ?
I can see that point of view as well and yes in some cases, the customization's are dumb and immersion breaking. But people also do this as a hobby and past time, so immersing yourself to the point of living another person and every pimple on their buttocks is a part of your identity, can become a bit stale :P

Besides we are not bound by the same limitations as our own world necessarily, magic exists and forces that can alter your appearance for good or worse. I have yet to meet any one with a skeletal arm in real life, or bird like talon hands, fiery hair and what not. Lets treat it for what it is, fantasy.

If developing your character is as time consuming as this game is, having to repeat the cycle of it on multiple occasions due to something that should be insignificant is a hell of a toll. If I want to change the type of shield I use, I will lose over half my epic levels and key defining features of my character, no longer allowing me to pertain its current identity, but likely rolling back on gameplay as well. Having to acquire XP anew to obtain your normal and established ability level, and make excuses for your faded prowess and sudden inadequacies in so many aspects.

I think theres a bit too much entitlement involved in this kind of debate perhaps, where we are talking about rules or limitations on other players. But they are are blurred. The only case where I see actual penalty on the XP regained making sense, is when you make a completely new character. For tweaking an existing one, I dont care particularly. Even if it means Freddy the Fighter becomes William the Wizard over night, if the RP is there and supports or.. otherwise it wont matter too much. People luckily have a lot of integrity on BG and id think after an extended test period, you would find the same amount of RCRs as now per player, but more players.
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by Snarfy »

Ithilan wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:51 pm I think theres a bit too much entitlement involved in this kind of debate...
This is the truest statement in this entire thread.
There are no level 30's, only level 20's with benefits...
realayer
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Re: Monthly 100% RCR

Unread post by realayer »

I will reiterate my points here if they were not clear in my previous posts.
1) It is fine to have loss xp for using RCR (as I have done that a couple of times already).
2) What is not fine is the slow progress of epic levels (to catch up with that xp loss), and this suggests that a yearly 100% RCR might have its place.

@Steve
Thank you for clarifying your stance. I know that contacting DMs is a viable option. But I am concern that contacting DMs for something that can be done mechanically will take away their time to cater to the larger server population.

@Valefort
I am sorry if my statement
"I feel that investing a long time in my character but resulting in such a little progression amounts to disrespecting players' time."
offended anyone. That is not my intention, and I just want to express my dissatifaction on the slow character progression.
If I do not enjoy playing on this server, I will just leave instead of investing time to comment and make suggestions to improve this server and player experience.
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