Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by metaquad4 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:50 pm

DM Golem wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:33 pm
My experience both last time around and this time around as a DM is that there isn't one character or alignment archetype that doesn't handle conflict well compared to others, or is more prone to OOC reactions over IC matters than others. I would ask you, Mallore, not to express such as its not helpful to this thread (Although I am not a forum moderator) and the purpose of it. It comes across a bit like playing to the crowd, unintentionally, and certainly comes across like a sideswipe to players of non-evil PCs.
The majority are on one side, and there are also a lot of people who can't handle player conflict very well. Those who can't, tend to gravitate to where there will be the lack player conflict perhaps (the one with the majority, or "team good"). The ones who do, or enjoy player conflict and the RP it generates tend to gravitate towards the minority opposing RP the majority or "team evil" (as this server is predominantly good aligned).

That is probably where that distinction comes in. It isn't that one side can't handle player conflict well. It is just that those who can't handle player conflict tend to flock to that side, as they perceive that there will be more of a lack of it there.
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Deathgrowl » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:01 pm

Because of IC developments, my character doesn't go to the Front Line anymore. However, the times I was there, I could easily point out 70% of the people frequenting there being very likely evil aligned or neutral-towards-evil.

Just two days ago, I wandered there with an alt I made recently at a completely different time of day than I usually play and found that there were maybe 15 people present, and only two of which could be considered even leaning good aligned.

So I guess this is a matter of grass being greener on the other side, as always.
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:07 pm

Hi Rain,

As you have chosen to not await me getting back to you privately about how to work the RP you started without speaking to me into this plot, and have posted here, I feel I have to respond to some of what you say.
Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:15 am

DM Golem wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:47 am

I think we are granting quite a lot of latitude as is! (note that the map to the north will be peopled with stronger devils soon and it will not be subject to laws etc)
Now this is where I need to speak on something from what you said here. If you were truely granting quite a latitude as you say then there would be three fronts to this event already. It already seems the more lawful players of the server have a place to go and contribute their time and resources into the plot (In both the front line and the soubar bridge). They have a base of operations and a front line to defend from the evil / chaotic forces of the fiends.

Now with that being said you guys have already confirmed that counter forces of this plot (the devils) are seeking people to fight for their front too. There is proof of that here.

Note:
DM Spartacus wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:15 am
A single Imp skitters to a halt at the imposing entrance to Kraak Helzak, a parlay stick waving in the breeze. A squawking voice callas across the divide. "Now is your chance. Surrender now...and you can join in service with the army of Yogi the Devil, or die, what'll be?. There is a brief disbelieving silence from within. Then another Dwarven voice replies "The Imp is right we should yield and share the treasure, ale and profit for it is better than dying and I should know. Open the gates to them!
So with the bit of information why is there nothing for the people who wished to fight on this side currently in place? There is no front-line for them no base of operations nor is there even a window of opportunity currently for PC's to even join this side when you guys clearly have shown DM rumor of being able too. Now of course it's fairly obvious the repercussions that would come for joining the axis forces but from what ive read above NPC's can come up with reasons to join the axis side be it survival or something to gain. PC's of course would have their own reasons as well if the opportunity from the team was there, but it's not and I find that in most cases when there is ally vs axis THERE NEVER IS!.

Why does no one take the initiative to make a -font-line- for the fiends?
I think this quoted section has a few core misunderstandings:
1 - That I am running the entire devil plot. I am not. I run the Winding Water only. My plot is Hellsteel v BG. What other fronts there are, or should be, are not relevant to how I run my section of the plot in deciding if I am granting latitude, likewise what Sparty is running in his plots is not relevant to mine in terms of what my devils will agree to. We each have different NPCs and different DMing styles.

2 - That latitude means complete freedom. It does not. I am not granting complete freedom of RP in IC terms on the Frontline. I am however being as accessible as I have time for, and trying to incorporate everyone's RP. However there are some things that have to happen to be true to the nature of the Flaming Fist

3 - That the fiends are chaotic. Fiends can be, demons. Devils are very lawful. If your PC is not lawful or close enough, you have very little chance of siding with Hellsteel tower. The fiends are not chaotic. If Soubar's front is defined as lawful, this is Law, vs Law, Vs Law.

4 - There's literally been no demand to be on a frontline for fiends until you.

5 - Finally, my plot at least is very much aimed as NPC v PC, even when there is conflict. So my DMing of those working with/allied to the Devils never revolves around PVP and direct conflict, rather different factions against NPCs. I would not support what amounts to an arena, with devils + their PCs on one end, and Baldurians and their PCs on the other, in my plot. I think that is what having a "devil" territory openly joinable by PCs would amount to. As I have no interest in adjudicating that at the pace it would need to be, I would need other DMs to help me and us be on 18 horus a day to adjudicate things.

The tl;dr is, I'm so busy already, I have no interest in PC v PC dominating much of my DMing time, so alot of your wider points about having open conflict just fall on deaf ears to me. I'm willing to work with it on a limited basis if something can be worked out, but if I'm ever asked to effectively become a referee to a PVP arena, I'd have to think about whether I wanted to DM it at all.

Such ideas could be discussed on a wider basis as pertains to the plot as a whole, in a thread addressed to the CC's, but please do not bring them here as a reaction to the IC situation on the Frontline. I'm not prepared to alter my plot or the setting so heavily, and possibly double my workload, to facilitate it.

Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:15 am
Why not instead of just making the central winding way a 2nd attempt at a CR 30 area (similar to the old baator portal in dragon spear) it is instead a place where the axis contribute against the ally and take down the stragglers and scouts of the bauldarians? Even if this is too much or there is some rhyme or reason you can't, still I find it strange that there are never mobs in place that are suppose to be "good" for the evil to fight / defend against. Which would probably answer alot of questions similar to the one thread where the person was questioning: "Why to even buff smite good in the first place?"
cosmic ray wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:23 am
The main problem would remain in the form of a complete, or nearly complete, lack of targets outside of PvP. :(
See above. This is a thread about my plot (which you have privately asked to RP with and I am in the process of discussing with the team), not about server mechanics.

On the warzone, I wanted it put in as I wanted a place where the actual "war" happened. I run events on it. Its meant to get spawns for when I am not around but there has been a communications fubar on them going in :oops:
Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:15 am
There is a fairly obvious imbalance of opportunity here.
There are, yes. I don't think the server caters to playing direct antagonists equally to other archetypes. I do not know a server that ever has. At least here there is no permadeath to make your time as an antagonist very short (I know Baibat has been killed at least once, for example).

However, I think this year we have spread the net of involvement as wide as ever as a team in recent months, and on my front I have done my best to be as inclusive as possible. As you know I am currently considering how to include your RP. But you ask a lot, in asking for your very particular RP to be catered for in my plot, on the baldurian frontline, that is the element catering to Team BG.
Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:15 am
Especially in an event where there should plenty of it to choose from instead of 2 ally sides vs 0 axis sides.
Again, this thread is about my plotline, not the metaplot as a whole.
Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:15 am
I find that only allowing the team and not the players to control what it is the axis does for chess moves is totally out of touch and overlooked by the many players who want to play that side on this server. And this answer you gave me only further proves my point more. If you truly were granted latitude on this topic then there would be more window of opportunity for all players to procure be that because of their alignment, god, goals, gains or sheer hatred against the forces of evil vs the forces of good. IE: Paladins vs Black guards mentality.
Latitude is not complete freedom, see above.

My plot is aimed at Baldurian allied people primarily, see above.

I have had a total of two requests to work with the devils and I answered one of them, while yours is in process. I am not seeing this huge hidden group of people who want to destroy the world. You are the only person I have known who has advocated for a direct conflict world of warcraft style approach though; I expect those who want that are a small minority. And it is not on offer in my plotline (certainly not without a PC doing the legwork to be useful to the devils) given my plotline's focus
Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:15 am
And of course this can all be done without PVP interaction at all! You guys have already nullified that by proceeding with this ruling. Thus IF the axis line was involved the ruling would still stand as vice versa while allowing the axis party to contribute to their plot with their own mobs to kill and challenges to overcome.
I can't see how this would not involve PVP interaction, without a strict set of OOC rules. I'm not sure how it would be avoided to be honest.

Lets say it was possible; then it would also not be the plot I am running on the Winding Water, so discussion of it does not belong in this thread.

(I am as I say, running another plotline that is aligned with the Devils)

In any event, I suggest you wait for the response from the team before opening a thread on a "team enslave the world, give us plot" arc as we are likely to be able to work with you in some capacity.

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:13 pm

metaquad4 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:50 pm
DM Golem wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:33 pm
My experience both last time around and this time around as a DM is that there isn't one character or alignment archetype that doesn't handle conflict well compared to others, or is more prone to OOC reactions over IC matters than others. I would ask you, Mallore, not to express such as its not helpful to this thread (Although I am not a forum moderator) and the purpose of it. It comes across a bit like playing to the crowd, unintentionally, and certainly comes across like a sideswipe to players of non-evil PCs.
The majority are on one side, and there are also a lot of people who can't handle player conflict very well. Those who can't, tend to gravitate to where there will be the lack player conflict perhaps (the one with the majority, or "team good"). The ones who do, or enjoy player conflict and the RP it generates tend to gravitate towards the minority opposing RP the majority or "team evil" (as this server is predominantly good aligned).

That is probably where that distinction comes in. It isn't that one side can't handle player conflict well. It is just that those who can't handle player conflict tend to flock to that side, as they perceive that there will be more of a lack of it there.
In my experience as a DM and a player here this is a myth. Of course its hard for me to say more without embarrassing people and/or breaching DM confidentiality, but there are IMO a ton of factors that lead to situations where conflict blows up into OOC matters and I see them equally in the die hard "team good" players and in the die hard "team evil" players.

I do see "team evil handles conflict better" rolled out a lot though; but as I say, its a myth.

It doesn't change the fact I don't want this discussion in my thread. Like with a discussion of the mechanics of smite evil, and Sparty's plots, and whether there should be more plot access generally for PCs that want to watch the world burn....that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about my plot.

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:16 pm

Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:49 pm
Steve wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:52 am
If a Player wants to really represent the Evil mindset and antagonize PCs on the Good end of the spectrum...hellz, even the Neutrals and the Evils too...then consider "playing" the Role of DM. You'll never have a shortage of Players that want to try their hand against your attentions! :twisted:
My point at the moment is why do you need to be a DM to do that? Why do PC's never get the chance? Or when they do it's something so small and meaningless that it comes across as a minor problem that is fixed in a weeks time to the protagonist?
The simple answer is because if its one PC vs several, it IS a minor problem compared to the NPC threats.

And as a player, you can't speak for/act as/ or ignore the NPCs

Its just a reality of the game.

So you can play an antagonist, but its easier within an NPC faction or in a more subtle way.

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Steve » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:18 pm

Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:49 pm
My point at the moment is why do you need to be a DM to do that? Why do PC's never get the chance? Or when they do it's something so small and meaningless that it comes across as a minor problem that is fixed in a weeks time to the protagonist?
You don't need to be a DM. Just as the recent encounter between your PC and my PC has shown, Players with PCs of opposing Alignments can easily have and enjoy conflict. Besides a technical/mechanical limitation of Factions between PCs and Mobs, there is a base difficulty to RPing Evil as a Player/PC vs. being a DM.

But to why do PCs never get the chance, that comes down to willingness to pursue the RP around Evil actions, Evil outcomes, and especially the end result on the Environment. Essentially, on the Sword Coast, in canon lore, Evil-natured Beings exist, and cause difficulty in the Lives of all...but they never win. There is no "Ten Years Darkness" coming our way, for example. BGTSCC lives in a canon, and it isn't a Homebrew environment.

Thus, as a Player, you an antagonize all you want, but it isn't going to be "Evil Wins" any time soon. It won't even be Evil Wins for X Limited Time, either.

The Story here, on a more meta level, is the experience of the story of engaging our PCs in the environment, and totally knowing OOC that there will be a recognizable and expected outcome. The fun is in the participation, even if you already know the ending.

Now, on a personal level, I would LOVE to know that in my gaming experience on BGTSCC, that the Dice would determine the outcome. But I just don't believe it. Surely, the Dice—chaos, opportunity, failure, etc.—will generate interesting asides and all, but this is a game and not RL, and essentially everything going on here is totally controlled, in one way or another. With near 99% reliability.

Thus, the one way I suggest that you could change the probability of the outcome, either for yourself or others, in their experience of the game, is to take on the Role where you have the most power, and the greatest ability to effect the outcome.

DM Golem even wrote it out: "Of course this war is bigger than the PCs; and its bigger than the one map that is in game. but of course the contribution of players matters." Our PCs are minor characters, really. They might be level 30 mechanical Godlings, but in "reality," they are contributors, not the dictators of what happens. I think, personally, it is important to realize this. DMs, on the other hand, are not just contributors, they are managers of the World that is moving along...and maybe that "moving along" whether or not or not our PCs "act" in the storyline, can seem frustrating OOC to the effort we put in, as Players.

So again, while certain instances like the Character vs Character encounter we had lately, Rain, can be super enjoyable RP and actually give a future possibility for storybuilding between us, there is a otherwise a very limited amount of what your PC, especially if they are Evil, can do in this Environment. DMing, on the other hand, does give one the chance to manipulate the environment, to a certain extent. But then again again again...the Lore of the Environment, the Timeline and the Canon of it all does and should limit the expectation.

But besides all that, DM Golem is trying to built an interesting story. You are entitled to questions about it—hellz, I bother Golem with questions-a-plenty ( :twisted: ), and I bet you actually want to help forward this Campaign in your way/particular RP. But unfortunately, no matter what side of the RP fence you're playing on, you just might not get what you want. Though you can try sometimes.... ;)

Cheers.
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by dolorof » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:02 pm

DM Golem wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:57 am
dolorof wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:13 pm
The Whistler wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:19 pm
There is strict protocol for entry to any militarized zone in the modern world and I assume the same goes for our make believe universe. Allowing anyone to come and go as they please is a surefire way to have your back lines sabotaged by malice and your front lines sabotaged by ineptitude. Not just orcs and obvious banites, but also well meaning individuals should keep that in mind when they're entering a battlefield. Take your time to introduce yourselves to the more veteran PCs there, ask them how your character may be of use to the war effort and follow their lead. I'm sure they'll be glad to point you in the right direction.
I think this is right, as long as those PCs agree to be inclusive and not exclusive for personal reasons.
I am all in favour of inclusive RP, but I do not want players to feel they have to break character in order to be inclusive, as this is also an RP world. Ideally one can be both, but the player whose paladin refuses to fight alongside a red wizard is entitled to RP that way without being considered a bad player, or assumed to be so by the player of the red wizard (insert any other combination of hostilities and apply the same logic).

I tend to take the view that the IC should lay where it does between players then I will compensate as a DM, when I am DMing

I am very deliberately rping the NPCs as taking a realistic IC view of the setting, various factions and actions, for good or ill - and rewarding RP that also takes account of that. That applies mostly in the Duchal Court RP I am doing but it also applies on the Front. I know a lot of the other DMs take a similar approach, to give some weight and purpose to the sort of political RP many players profess to like
It is bad for players to break character, yes, but what i am afraid of is when players use IC authority to remove players that their PC consider to be evil/antogonist from the frontline (a place where there is a common enemy for almost everyone). Let say if a paladin would not allow red wizards to come to the frontline, that would be in my opinion(occ), bad. Naturally known crimminals should not be allowed there by the PCs.

[/quote]

If you are proven to be an unregistered warlock to the Flaming Fist, you would be punished for that, yes. Baldur's Gate requires registration as a warlock.
[/quote]

I think this was meant for someone else, no?
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Mallore » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:53 pm

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Last edited by Mallore on Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Rain » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:56 pm

Steve wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:18 pm
Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:49 pm
My point at the moment is why do you need to be a DM to do that? Why do PC's never get the chance? Or when they do it's something so small and meaningless that it comes across as a minor problem that is fixed in a weeks time to the protagonist?
You don't need to be a DM. Just as the recent encounter between your PC and my PC has shown, Players with PCs of opposing Alignments can easily have and enjoy conflict. Besides a technical/mechanical limitation of Factions between PCs and Mobs, there is a base difficulty to RPing Evil as a Player/PC vs. being a DM.

But to why do PCs never get the chance, that comes down to willingness to pursue the RP around Evil actions, Evil outcomes, and especially the end result on the Environment. Essentially, on the Sword Coast, in canon lore, Evil-natured Beings exist, and cause difficulty in the Lives of all...but they never win. There is no "Ten Years Darkness" coming our way, for example. BGTSCC lives in a canon, and it isn't a Homebrew environment.

Thus, as a Player, you an antagonize all you want, but it isn't going to be "Evil Wins" any time soon. It won't even be Evil Wins for X Limited Time, either.

The Story here, on a more meta level, is the experience of the story of engaging our PCs in the environment, and totally knowing OOC that there will be a recognizable and expected outcome. The fun is in the participation, even if you already know the ending.

Now, on a personal level, I would LOVE to know that in my gaming experience on BGTSCC, that the Dice would determine the outcome. But I just don't believe it. Surely, the Dice—chaos, opportunity, failure, etc.—will generate interesting asides and all, but this is a game and not RL, and essentially everything going on here is totally controlled, in one way or another. With near 99% reliability.

Thus, the one way I suggest that you could change the probability of the outcome, either for yourself or others, in their experience of the game, is to take on the Role where you have the most power, and the greatest ability to effect the outcome.

DM Golem even wrote it out: "Of course this war is bigger than the PCs; and its bigger than the one map that is in game. but of course the contribution of players matters." Our PCs are minor characters, really. They might be level 30 mechanical Godlings, but in "reality," they are contributors, not the dictators of what happens. I think, personally, it is important to realize this. DMs, on the other hand, are not just contributors, they are managers of the World that is moving along...and maybe that "moving along" whether or not or not our PCs "act" in the storyline, can seem frustrating OOC to the effort we put in, as Players.

So again, while certain instances like the Character vs Character encounter we had lately, Rain, can be super enjoyable RP and actually give a future possibility for storybuilding between us, there is a otherwise a very limited amount of what your PC, especially if they are Evil, can do in this Environment. DMing, on the other hand, does give one the chance to manipulate the environment, to a certain extent. But then again again again...the Lore of the Environment, the Timeline and the Canon of it all does and should limit the expectation.

But besides all that, DM Golem is trying to built an interesting story. You are entitled to questions about it—hellz, I bother Golem with questions-a-plenty ( :twisted: ), and I bet you actually want to help forward this Campaign in your way/particular RP. But unfortunately, no matter what side of the RP fence you're playing on, you just might not get what you want. Though you can try sometimes.... ;)

Cheers.
Interesting way of thinking on the subject Steve. I would love to talk to you more about this but let's do so later on between ourselves as Golem has already voiced his frustrations on the topic at hand already. Thus allowing him and the others to get back on subject.

Ill message you later!
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Edelran » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:46 pm

I'm just dropping a few words, as a players that stays away from the frontlines since my character has no reason or power to fight the devils head on.

I must say, I hoped for a post like this to happen because it was just silly to me that the Fist wasn't trying to enforce any kind of order in the area considering they have a fort there. I mean, it's their front, not our front.

I mean, we can discuss the laws and rules but it was just silly that a warfront had no organization whatsoever or rules. Yes, I can imagine the situation being chaotic, but there is a fort there and the strong menace of further problems from the inside like for example, devil collaborators, they can't just let everything happen like it's no man's land.

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:34 pm

dolorof wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:02 pm
DM Golem wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:57 am
dolorof wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:13 pm


I think this is right, as long as those PCs agree to be inclusive and not exclusive for personal reasons.
I am all in favour of inclusive RP, but I do not want players to feel they have to break character in order to be inclusive, as this is also an RP world. Ideally one can be both, but the player whose paladin refuses to fight alongside a red wizard is entitled to RP that way without being considered a bad player, or assumed to be so by the player of the red wizard (insert any other combination of hostilities and apply the same logic).

I tend to take the view that the IC should lay where it does between players then I will compensate as a DM, when I am DMing

I am very deliberately rping the NPCs as taking a realistic IC view of the setting, various factions and actions, for good or ill - and rewarding RP that also takes account of that. That applies mostly in the Duchal Court RP I am doing but it also applies on the Front. I know a lot of the other DMs take a similar approach, to give some weight and purpose to the sort of political RP many players profess to like
It is bad for players to break character, yes, but what i am afraid of is when players use IC authority to remove players that their PC consider to be evil/antogonist from the frontline (a place where there is a common enemy for almost everyone). Let say if a paladin would not allow red wizards to come to the frontline, that would be in my opinion(occ), bad. Naturally known crimminals should not be allowed there by the PCs.
I consider that sort of dispute should be handled IC mostly, but I would not expect the paladin's to godmode the NPCs by claiming the right to drive non-outlaws off and enforcing it with violence. Even if it got part way that far (threats to make someone leave) I would be happy to RP fist reactions if its called to my attention, and it would be well known that Red Wizards are permitted at the Frontline (and Zhentarim too, as well as other factions). The only faction I can think of that isn't permitted is the Hellstorms!

Tl;DR - paladins don't have that IC authority, so that RP would be godmoding the Fist reaction. That logic should apply to most of the frontline interactions, there's a hard LN faction with a TN commanding officer on site that is running the war effort.

Basically, everyone should RP with a view that the flaming fist are 5 minutes away max.
dolorof wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:02 pm
If you are proven to be an unregistered warlock to the Flaming Fist, you would be punished for that, yes. Baldur's Gate requires registration as a warlock.
I think this was meant for someone else, no?
I think so!

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:39 pm

Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:56 pm
Steve wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:18 pm
Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:49 pm
My point at the moment is why do you need to be a DM to do that? Why do PC's never get the chance? Or when they do it's something so small and meaningless that it comes across as a minor problem that is fixed in a weeks time to the protagonist?
You don't need to be a DM. Just as the recent encounter between your PC and my PC has shown, Players with PCs of opposing Alignments can easily have and enjoy conflict. Besides a technical/mechanical limitation of Factions between PCs and Mobs, there is a base difficulty to RPing Evil as a Player/PC vs. being a DM.

But to why do PCs never get the chance, that comes down to willingness to pursue the RP around Evil actions, Evil outcomes, and especially the end result on the Environment. Essentially, on the Sword Coast, in canon lore, Evil-natured Beings exist, and cause difficulty in the Lives of all...but they never win. There is no "Ten Years Darkness" coming our way, for example. BGTSCC lives in a canon, and it isn't a Homebrew environment.

Thus, as a Player, you an antagonize all you want, but it isn't going to be "Evil Wins" any time soon. It won't even be Evil Wins for X Limited Time, either.

The Story here, on a more meta level, is the experience of the story of engaging our PCs in the environment, and totally knowing OOC that there will be a recognizable and expected outcome. The fun is in the participation, even if you already know the ending.

Now, on a personal level, I would LOVE to know that in my gaming experience on BGTSCC, that the Dice would determine the outcome. But I just don't believe it. Surely, the Dice—chaos, opportunity, failure, etc.—will generate interesting asides and all, but this is a game and not RL, and essentially everything going on here is totally controlled, in one way or another. With near 99% reliability.

Thus, the one way I suggest that you could change the probability of the outcome, either for yourself or others, in their experience of the game, is to take on the Role where you have the most power, and the greatest ability to effect the outcome.

DM Golem even wrote it out: "Of course this war is bigger than the PCs; and its bigger than the one map that is in game. but of course the contribution of players matters." Our PCs are minor characters, really. They might be level 30 mechanical Godlings, but in "reality," they are contributors, not the dictators of what happens. I think, personally, it is important to realize this. DMs, on the other hand, are not just contributors, they are managers of the World that is moving along...and maybe that "moving along" whether or not or not our PCs "act" in the storyline, can seem frustrating OOC to the effort we put in, as Players.

So again, while certain instances like the Character vs Character encounter we had lately, Rain, can be super enjoyable RP and actually give a future possibility for storybuilding between us, there is a otherwise a very limited amount of what your PC, especially if they are Evil, can do in this Environment. DMing, on the other hand, does give one the chance to manipulate the environment, to a certain extent. But then again again again...the Lore of the Environment, the Timeline and the Canon of it all does and should limit the expectation.

But besides all that, DM Golem is trying to built an interesting story. You are entitled to questions about it—hellz, I bother Golem with questions-a-plenty ( :twisted: ), and I bet you actually want to help forward this Campaign in your way/particular RP. But unfortunately, no matter what side of the RP fence you're playing on, you just might not get what you want. Though you can try sometimes.... ;)

Cheers.
Interesting way of thinking on the subject Steve. I would love to talk to you more about this but let's do so later on between ourselves as Golem has already voiced his frustrations on the topic at hand already. Thus allowing him and the others to get back on subject.

Ill message you later!
It might be worth a thread of its own, either now or when you've had a response from us!

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DM Golem
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:26 pm

Steve wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:18 pm

But besides all that, DM Golem is trying to built an interesting story.
Emphasis on trying :lol:

I ask for player patience with my work impacting my ability to respond, and for the thin spread of time between the invested players I have currently

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Rain » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:32 pm

DM Golem wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:39 pm
Rain wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:56 pm
Steve wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:18 pm


You don't need to be a DM. Just as the recent encounter between your PC and my PC has shown, Players with PCs of opposing Alignments can easily have and enjoy conflict. Besides a technical/mechanical limitation of Factions between PCs and Mobs, there is a base difficulty to RPing Evil as a Player/PC vs. being a DM.

But to why do PCs never get the chance, that comes down to willingness to pursue the RP around Evil actions, Evil outcomes, and especially the end result on the Environment. Essentially, on the Sword Coast, in canon lore, Evil-natured Beings exist, and cause difficulty in the Lives of all...but they never win. There is no "Ten Years Darkness" coming our way, for example. BGTSCC lives in a canon, and it isn't a Homebrew environment.

Thus, as a Player, you an antagonize all you want, but it isn't going to be "Evil Wins" any time soon. It won't even be Evil Wins for X Limited Time, either.

The Story here, on a more meta level, is the experience of the story of engaging our PCs in the environment, and totally knowing OOC that there will be a recognizable and expected outcome. The fun is in the participation, even if you already know the ending.

Now, on a personal level, I would LOVE to know that in my gaming experience on BGTSCC, that the Dice would determine the outcome. But I just don't believe it. Surely, the Dice—chaos, opportunity, failure, etc.—will generate interesting asides and all, but this is a game and not RL, and essentially everything going on here is totally controlled, in one way or another. With near 99% reliability.

Thus, the one way I suggest that you could change the probability of the outcome, either for yourself or others, in their experience of the game, is to take on the Role where you have the most power, and the greatest ability to effect the outcome.

DM Golem even wrote it out: "Of course this war is bigger than the PCs; and its bigger than the one map that is in game. but of course the contribution of players matters." Our PCs are minor characters, really. They might be level 30 mechanical Godlings, but in "reality," they are contributors, not the dictators of what happens. I think, personally, it is important to realize this. DMs, on the other hand, are not just contributors, they are managers of the World that is moving along...and maybe that "moving along" whether or not or not our PCs "act" in the storyline, can seem frustrating OOC to the effort we put in, as Players.

So again, while certain instances like the Character vs Character encounter we had lately, Rain, can be super enjoyable RP and actually give a future possibility for storybuilding between us, there is a otherwise a very limited amount of what your PC, especially if they are Evil, can do in this Environment. DMing, on the other hand, does give one the chance to manipulate the environment, to a certain extent. But then again again again...the Lore of the Environment, the Timeline and the Canon of it all does and should limit the expectation.

But besides all that, DM Golem is trying to built an interesting story. You are entitled to questions about it—hellz, I bother Golem with questions-a-plenty ( :twisted: ), and I bet you actually want to help forward this Campaign in your way/particular RP. But unfortunately, no matter what side of the RP fence you're playing on, you just might not get what you want. Though you can try sometimes.... ;)

Cheers.
Interesting way of thinking on the subject Steve. I would love to talk to you more about this but let's do so later on between ourselves as Golem has already voiced his frustrations on the topic at hand already. Thus allowing him and the others to get back on subject.

Ill message you later!
It might be worth a thread of its own, either now or when you've had a response from us!
Noted. *Thumbs up*
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