PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

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DM Golem
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PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by DM Golem »

The Friendly Arm Inn is a PvP enabled map as historically players have much desired the ability to scuffle on map. Yet it has never been a map that is excluded from the stipulations regarding PvP in front of NPCs.

Fights that are too close to Bentley's gates, and the guards stationed there, are considered godmoding and will result in disciplinary action.

Bentley maintains peace at his inn to allow it to be a neutral meeting spot for all. He has his guards intervene when fights impact the Friendly Arm Inn's business. This constitutes the following:

- Fights on the road before the drawbridge are too close.
- Fights in or near the wagons across the road are too close, those are Bentley's visitors
- Fights across the road behind the wagons or out of sight of the gate guards are far enough away.

As a rule of thumb if you are in the trees you are far enough away.

We are hopeful this provides clarity and will avoid the FAI map being turned No PvP in the future.
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by Steve »

It may be helpful then to clarify how our Level 30 toons contrast power-wise to X number of guards (assuming here that 1 NPC guard = 10 guards for “realism” sake).

Is it that, in general, all PCs need to be considered half their actual level, in regard to NPCs? And NPCs themselves can actually be Level 15+? That 1 NPC guard is 10 guards of Level 15 each, and thus that Epic Character achievement is really not so epic, because Guard NPCs always outnumber your Character?

I would ask if the DM Team to consider how if our Characters are killing Balors, Dracoliches, Frost Giant Kings...and yet our Characters should “fear” the actions of NPC guards, that is either given IC or OOC context.

The OOC context could even be: Levels don’t really make sense, but we all have to imagine that NPC forces are always going to be able to “reprimand” behavior not allowed by local(ity) Law.
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by Winterborne »

Levels absolutely should not be a consideration IMO. I always have treated guards as being able to respond. Heck, the existing Flaming Fist NPC's will stomp most level 30 characters currently. I personally think it's bad form to approach potential consequences from a "whatever I 'd just kill all the guards too" mindset.

Edit to add: in a world full of troublemaking powerful adventurers, I always acted like the guards were recruited with the ability to deal with such in mind. Maybe the guards are ex adventurers who retired after decades of adventure. Etc.
Last edited by Winterborne on Sat May 30, 2020 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by LazyTrain »

Winterborne wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 4:09 pm Levels absolutely should not be a consideration IMO. I always have treated guards as being able to respond. Heck, the existing Flaming Fist NPC's will stomp most level 30 characters currently. I personally think it's bad form to approach potential consequences from a "whatever I 'd just kill all the guards too" mindset.
I agree. The moment you start factoring in your OOC level is the moment everything goes sideways.
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by Habitu »

Fights that are too close to Bentley's gates, and the guards stationed there, are considered godmoding and will result in disciplinary action.
What is considered "too close" ? Is that edge of the drawbridge close or nothing on the road leading to the drawbridge, or nothing on the tradeway road at all close? I have read the FAI Laws which state
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The red saying at or before the gate is a little vague, that would include the drawbridge but how much farther than that? Sorry for the screens I am a visual person!
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So is it just the drawbridge and anything outside the walls is fair game or is it the secondary where the grass area circles FAI, though I am not sure how the area by Woods of Sharp Teeth would play something else to clarify if that is a free game area or just no pvp because the guards watch it heavily because of the Orcs? Or they just watch it heavily but dont care what ppl do near the Orcs, it's not at the front so it may not affect bentley's business?

Sorry diverged there, so yes would that 'protected area' be just anything before the Tradeway itself so grass areas, rock area, the small off shoot road that leads to the drawbridge of the FAI, everything walls and in of FAI obviously, and the darker green part leading to Sharp Tooth? Below screen shows the last part.
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Could I suggest maybe just putting up a fence to denote the line or guards? I know it may not be Lore based to have a fence but I think it may be some help with the issue? Though if people run behind the "protected area" I imagine that counts as a forfeit in the PvP rules like transitioning?
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by sweetlikesplenda »

Already answered in the initial post.
DM Golem wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 3:40 pm As a rule of thumb if you are in the trees you are far enough away.
If you aren't surrounded by trees somewhere on the map, you are close enough for a guard to pump a bolt through you for starting trouble.
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by Habitu »

sweetlikesplenda wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 5:28 pm Already answered in the initial post.
DM Golem wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 3:40 pm As a rule of thumb if you are in the trees you are far enough away.
If you aren't surrounded by trees somewhere on the map, you are close enough for a guard to pump a bolt through you for starting trouble.
There are numerous trees around FAI even up on it. Does the one by the Rocks count? Does the area off to the right count where that caravan is? Or is it just anything from the edge of the Tradeway by FAI and out past that is the only PvP area. Anything not in the archaic circle?
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by Steve »

Winterborne wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 4:09 pm Levels absolutely should not be a consideration IMO. I always have treated guards as being able to respond. Heck, the existing Flaming Fist NPC's will stomp most level 30 characters currently. I personally think it's bad form to approach potential consequences from a "whatever I 'd just kill all the guards too" mindset.
I'm not stating that the guards shouldn't be able to respond. It is whether their response would be likely—be seeing the power of their foe/the antagonist here—and effective (considering the actual powers such a being has). It requires some form of guideline that gives players insight to relate the "I just killed a Balor" with "Gee, those Friendly Arm Inn guards look like they'd kick my arse."

LT wrote:The moment you start factoring in your OOC level is the moment everything goes sideways.
Are levels completely OOC? I mean sure, one cannot generate an IC statement of "Hey guys, I'm a level 10 fighter, what are you?" But once reaching the highest form (Level) of a Prestige Class, is it not realistic and IC to contrast the Character's skillset and powers against another, say, mercenary guard?


If Levels, or, shall we say wielded power(s), is not to be taken into consideration when we Role=play our Characters in this World, then where lies the ability to make actual IC judgements, as in, for example a) should I do this?; b) am I risking my safety, my life, in this action?' c) I act as my will directs regardless of consequence? These are just some of the MANY questions that personas can and should be asking themselves in their "play."

But essentially RP does die if an OOC "understanding" is placed into the game that full stops IC actions (such as causing a fight in a public place with guards present...and dealing with the consequences), and worse, RP dies even faster when such OOC stops are in place, but Players are left unable to fully understand them, and agree to them, in the process of RP.

Another way to go about it would be to say, okay Whitewood Vanguard, you attacked (PvP'd) the Zhentarim (whatever result), but NOW BENTLEY AND HIS GUARDS ARE ATTACKING YOU for the disruption...and after THAT fight—obviously needing DM oversight and support—the Whitewood Vanguard has to accept the consequence of their actions.
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by Snarfy »

sweetlikesplenda wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 5:28 pm Already answered in the initial post.
DM Golem wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 3:40 pm As a rule of thumb if you are in the trees you are far enough away.
If you aren't surrounded by trees somewhere on the map, you are close enough for a guard to pump a bolt through you for starting trouble.
^ ... yep. If your character swings a weapon at someone within the guards sight-lines, chances are pretty good you're going to get thwapped by the archers.

I honestly don't know how, after all these years, players still have trouble understanding the FAI rules. But, at least there isn't near daily scuffles out front of it, like there used to be.

Is this a good time for me to re-recommend some script that will slap offenders with a super-high AB One-shot arrow(that does 100hp per hit) or three for toggling someone hostile while within a certain range of the towers? :dance:
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by Blackman D »

of course levels should matter, the comparison tho is more likely that 1 NPC does equal about 10 actual NPCs who are all also 30... or higher vs you

they are just retired from adventuring
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by Steve »

Blackman D wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 7:36 pm ... is more likely that 1 NPC does equal about 10 actual NPCs who are all also 30... or higher vs you

they are just retired from adventuring
Though I personally don’t like this idea that every guard, Flaming Fist and/or mercenary employed to “protect” some bit of civilization is a retired lvl 30 bad arse, AT LEAST if this was the Official Word on the matter, it would grant perspective and guideline to how we consider and thus RP our Characters in this game world.

Obviously, the amount of control and interaction that can be supported 24/7 on this Server is limited, and thus it requires a good deal of OOC “laws” that help keep the General situation from spiraling out of control. But what I see happening more often is the reliance of OOC guidelines to prevent consequence, and at worst, preempt actions of Characters, which simply shuts down RP.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the concept of godmodding and I think BGTSCC needs some guidelines against it. But at the same time, it should be possible and at times encouraged to act as your Character would, and, if they act against the Law of the Lands (IC), there should be the consequence—or the reward ( ;) )—that goes with it.

I mean, imagine the RP if the situation was instead that with the WV having attacked the Zhentarim at the FAI, Bentley and his guards surrounded and “captured” the WV through greater force or just threat of force, and placed the WV in shackles (which I’m assuming would be Bentley’s right to do). With this action, friends of the WV could advocate for their release (or not, letting them submit to punishment by Law). And maybe the WV lose reputation points because of their chaotic, unruly actions as “vigilantes.” Or, maybe the Zhentarim bid for “taking away” the WV to Darhold...LOL. Or, even a public court held by Bentley and his wife, to make example of the rampant vigilantism that continues to grow on the Sword Coast no matter the attempts by law abiding forces to steer the greater region to stability.

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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by YourMoveHolyMan »

Steve wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:06 am
I mean, imagine the RP if the situation was instead that with the WV having attacked the Zhentarim at the FAI, Bentley and his guards surrounded and “captured” the WV through greater force or just threat of force, and placed the WV in shackles (which I’m assuming would be Bentley’s right to do). With this action, friends of the WV could advocate for their release (or not, letting them submit to punishment by Law). And maybe the WV lose reputation points because of their chaotic, unruly actions as “vigilantes.” Or, maybe the Zhentarim bid for “taking away” the WV to Darhold...LOL. Or, even a public court held by Bentley and his wife, to make example of the rampant vigilantism that continues to grow on the Sword Coast no matter the attempts by law abiding forces to steer the greater region to stability.

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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by Korchas »

I will honestly say that it is not that hard to just adhere to the one, singular clear-cut PvP rule we have that has been consistently enforced and makes sense on an IC and OOC perspective. The way this looks to me, you broke the OOC-and-IC-rules, and to have that furthering the story seems like an encouragement to do so to me.

Much as Steve may dislike it, the reality of the Forgotten Realms is that everyone in every city is likely a retired adventurer unless specifically pointed out otherwise. While I agree that it is a bit silly to be hunting Dragons and Balors and what have you as a character, my solution to that would be to heavily reduce the power level of enemies we can face on a solo basis, because it is incredibly immersion-breaking. Also to actually clarify whether we are "Level 30 but assume 15" or not.

So the guards being fully equipped, and able, to take on a bunch of adventurers (especially assuming there are FAR MORE than are shown, as otherwise they could not keep a place in the middle of the wilderness as safe as they do) is completely sensible to me.

calling it "evading consequence" to have at least one hub that you can exist in without people harassing you and wanting to gut you like a fish is not something I feel is entirely fair, either. We do all want to play and enjoy our time on the server after all. As someone who is evil or even 'questionable in alignment' that is sometimes nigh-impossible, as you get bothered and, at times, PvP-baited no matter where you go and what you do. It is tiresome and now you are vouching, indirectly, for the one oasis that prevents at least the more severe cases of this to be removed.

Which is, in itself, an acceptable stance, but not one I can subscribe to, sorry.
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

It's a heavy misconception here. Anti-godmodding rules exist because you don't know how NPCs would react to your actions and you're not allowed to decide for them, it's not because guards are overpowered (they're not). They might indeed put all the agressors down, they might all die doing so, they might turn their eyes blind either because it's too far or too dangerous and so on. They might be indeed having demigod powers or might be not stronger than CR15 monsters. The point of the rule is that it's not up to players to define these constants but up to DMs, so players have to be considerate of their RP to not cross these lines, even if sometimes it results in their characters' reaction being not as natural as it could. It's a lesser evil compared to agressive PCs just doing what they want and where they want.

As for this particular incident, Golem's message doesn't allow as much of a room for interpretation as Habitu mentioned. All this road area in the line of sight of the gate guard falls under PvP-free zone. I of course have seen a lot of characters agreeing to duel / settle scores right outside of the walls, usually at this area (gonna steal Habitu's screenshot for this!):
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And I do think PvP'ing there is alright if both parties consented, they simply assume they're far enough from the guards. The important and fair line is that if one of the parties is not OOCly alright with that PvP, the anti-godmodding rule will be at their side.
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Re: PvP Near the Friendly Arm Inn

Unread post by AgentOrange »

Korchas wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 7:48 am I will honestly say that it is not that hard to just adhere to the one, singular clear-cut PvP rule we have that has been consistently enforced and makes sense on an IC and OOC perspective. The way this looks to me, you broke the OOC-and-IC-rules, and to have that furthering the story seems like an encouragement to do so to me.

Much as Steve may dislike it, the reality of the Forgotten Realms is that everyone in every city is likely a retired adventurer unless specifically pointed out otherwise. While I agree that it is a bit silly to be hunting Dragons and Balors and what have you as a character, my solution to that would be to heavily reduce the power level of enemies we can face on a solo basis, because it is incredibly immersion-breaking. Also to actually clarify whether we are "Level 30 but assume 15" or not.

So the guards being fully equipped, and able, to take on a bunch of adventurers (especially assuming there are FAR MORE than are shown, as otherwise they could not keep a place in the middle of the wilderness as safe as they do) is completely sensible to me.

calling it "evading consequence" to have at least one hub that you can exist in without people harassing you and wanting to gut you like a fish is not something I feel is entirely fair, either. We do all want to play and enjoy our time on the server after all. As someone who is evil or even 'questionable in alignment' that is sometimes nigh-impossible, as you get bothered and, at times, PvP-baited no matter where you go and what you do. It is tiresome and now you are vouching, indirectly, for the one oasis that prevents at least the more severe cases of this to be removed.

Which is, in itself, an acceptable stance, but not one I can subscribe to, sorry.
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We had just returned from.a semi-break to... this. Proximity aside, we really didn't want to deal with a PvP hassle or high-tension conflict on our first day back.

Then to just get ganged up on without any choice, right at the FAI bridge? Guess our characters will have to only go to places with more than one exit?
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