Concern on the new guild outpost system.

[Wolfshear]

So having a bit of a read through of this post viewtopic.php?f=16&t=76720

I find myself very concerned. Even though, theoretically I could quite easily benefit from such a system..I am honestly not a fan.
It strikes me as an incredibly ooc gamey system that is horrendously exploitable. It shifts focus away from rping with others and weaving stories together to
this strange ooc points system that is more about bookkeeping than it is about actual rp cunning or shared stories.

I honestly am not even sure how to react to this sort of thing, it feels very anti-Rp as you could feasibly use this system without any real interaction with people or figures outside of whatever guild you are in...Just oocly racking up points for in game benefit. And I say all of this fully aware that I could tremendously benefit from it personally.

For me it has always been about the rp first and foremost, any victory is earned through trials and tribulations through a shared story as are the losses. Everything feels hard won and earned. Losses through mutual story more genuine. This kind of system really steps away from all of that to me.

I do not think this will add to rp or shared stories in any significant way and only encourage basically ooc point farming and even more isolation and hell, likely create more cliques than already exist.

To me this really only benefits a very narrow type of play, longterm story creations or cloak and dagger influence building on every side of the moral spectrum kind of becomes meaningless. I honestly do not play here to farm for points via ooc bookkeeping, i play for the story and creating history and memories. This is a very scary direction for the server to take in my opinion, even if I am fond of the intention behind it...I just think that surely this can't be the best way to accomplish the intent.

Just my two cents.

[AsuraKing]

I have to agree with Wolfshear's concerns 100%, this entire "Roleplay Points" system seems very OOC and forces a specific way of playing and document keeping that not everyone enjoys nor is good at. On top of that, this system has a real big chance of causing some serious "Favoritism" drama and accusations as some groups simply get more DM activity than others. Group A who happens to be in a heavy DM timezone shouldnt have a better chance due to getting these OOC points faster than Group B who is outside normal play times. If a group wants to establish an outpost or something elsewhere, they should work actively for that specifically through RP, not have to 'farm' some OOC points by performing unrelated activities in order to get enough points to start working on starting said outpost.

[Gaelan Thorne]

I can respect and appreciate the overall goal of the initiative. Unfortunately the issue is, this is far too open for abuse. If I am not mistake these screenshots and such would have to be posted publicly for transparency. Well now Group A: has posted they are making attempts to gain points in an area to set up an outpost. Now we have Group B: Who decides for whatever reason, they don't want that faction to gain that asset, or simply wishes to grief or troll them. Group B now knows where to hit Group A to stop their progress, they devote extra time to sabotaging them for various reasons, and succeed. What is to keep them from doing so repeatedly? And as the others have stated, all of this with zero interaction between groups, with zero RP backing up the efforts.

This may seem like a bleak view on it, but it's the reality. If a system is exploitable, there will be those who exploit it.

[JIŘÍ]

It gives players tools to expand their role play.


It gives players drive to take initiative.


Compaing something can be abused is pointless, anything can be abused. Not taking steps forward because of being so worried and lacking faith in fellow DMs or players is path to stagnation and no developtment.

Edit: and i like it does not force exactly only PVP but allows counter the other faction via role play, instead of just pvping.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Its welcome change.

Will it need adjusting down the road, maybe, but I'm just happy they're willing to try new things.

[Wolfshear]

Except nothing about it encourages roleplay. It encourages ooc bookkeeping and screenshots that can easily be gamed. While the easy exploitation of it is something i take issue with, what i take the most issue with is how far this skews things to a non ingame or rp bent. It encourages isolation and random posts that do nothing to create any kind of story or interaction.

It turns what used to take very real amounts of years of rp and work and turns it into an empty system of ooc point scoring with zero interaction with any playerside elements. Forum posts should be supplemental at best not the be all end all. And like I origionally said i came here for rp and stories not some ooc point gathering from arbitrary and ultimately shallow screenshots.

[JIŘÍ]

According to the requirments it requires still physical role play.

Just because one of ten players can try to swindle is not reason to cut fun down for nine others.


If you do not trust in the local playerbase, then why to play here even in first place? Because what you write here, sounds like you consider every other player to be a cheater and abuser.

[sweetlikesplenda]

I like the idea. I am against the point system part of it, personally.

Perhaps limit the number per guild to 1 at any time. Unless you take on over, I suppose? Since it seems they can be taken if enough effort is put in to it. But, also a certain amount of RP needs to be put in to it (Lumber and stone need to be acquired via NPC or PC merchants, builders need to be hired,etc?). If a take over is attempted, the current owner needs to be notified and given an opportunity to defend?

Seems like it can be a fun way to have a little more conflict that should also be looked at by everyone as fun, rather then a knee-jerk response to such thing happening. But, it does take the players all being willing to really be ready to win or lose and be happy with the fact there is activity and fun RP available... and plot revenge IC on the victors.

[Wolfshear]

Except you're missing the main point of what I am talking about, which is not the potential for exploitation...Which as I said while a concern is not what im really taking issue with.

Im taking issue with the fact that is this is purely skewed in an ooc points scoring direction that removes player interaction with the actual world and the others in it. It has nothing to do with "considering every other player to be a cheater and an abuser"

It has everything to do with an ooc points system that will only serve to isolate and clique up people more than they already are. Should the forums be used to supplement rp? Absolutely and it makes for a wonderful way to look back on stuff. But it shouldnt hold tangible rewards to it and imo we shouldnt have some kind of arbitrary points system based on it. Anything gained ingame should be just that, gained in game. Not because x posted weekly screenshots without ever speaking to another soul.

This is a very slippery slope to take the server down when we start ooc gamifying everything. Ingame interactions and stories should be the focus and should be what matters. And there shouldnt be a point system behind it, there should be a shared narrative. This does nothing to enhance peoples rp and only strips away from it. As I previously said it destroys any semblence of someone outwitting someone else and succeeding when all that can just be ignored to farm points. People on both sides of the IC morality spectrum will suffer here.

((This was a response to JIRI for clarification))


But to respond to splenda. I do not think we need any kind of ooc point mechanic for a win/lose rp as such things should be decided by rp. It does not even have to involve pvp at all but there already easily exists ways to win and lose via rp alone. There is always room for improvement and expanding player rp opportunities but that will only come from loosening the reigns, not ooc forum point farming.

[Klaggeddin1121]

Im not going to say much about this as a lot of points have already been made. Just that I have seen a lot of really bad ideas come through here, and im watching another one slip on in. This is ooc and anything ooc always ruins IG rp. No need for it at all.

[PaulImposteur]

The point system seems to purely exist so these don't become another empty guild hall that sits there for one player to log on to maintain. It requires people to stay active and RP to maintain these areas. While it does have an OOC factor in them, we already have enough wasted resources on ever permanent guild halls that are completely abandoned and because of no decay rules will never be removed because of ego/investment.

While I don't like the idea of outposts at all personally, I think requiring people to earn their keep and maintain them is the right direction. If anything I think once every 3 months is too infrequent for taxing them. I also think it should require consistent gold upkeep as a sink. It's a solid way to make sure they're kept for an active player-base, and something that disappears if people don't want to dedicate their time.

If anything this should be extended to current guild halls that clutter the server unused. I can see the concern for abuse and timezones are an issue. But implementation of a thing needs to happen first to get an idea of results before they can tinker and try to solve those kinds of issues. If the community implements nothing for fear of things not being able to be corrected, then we'll never have any new content.

Also I fail to see how running probably an average of 5 events across a 3 month period doesn't generate RP, if anything it should encourage it. People not particularly enjoying guild RP doesn't mean it is not RP. It will allow smaller guilds to make some temporary impact on the world, which would be nice to see. Even if I have no stakes in this race, since I don't RP in guilds.

[Steve]

Roleplay Points:

Roleplay points are points given out by DM's for activities done with the guild, and for the guild. In order to acquire these points, a guild can do any number of activities, such as:
Guild Patrols
Boss fights in the region as a guild
Recruitment in the area
Stores/trading in the area
Training in the area
Meetings in the area
This is not a comprehensive list. Any activity done with the guild, in order to promote guild interests, can be counted. In order for these activities to count towards RP totals, they must be documented and logged.

Above is quoted in regard to the “OOC” points.

First, these points don’t seem so OOC to me, in that a guild only gets them THROUGH ingame role-play.

Second, all these examples seem to place PCs in situations that are “out in the open” IG which is thus open to IC interaction with others.

Forum documentation is required, yes, but I’m sure if the guild RP was clandestine, one could keep the docu to private guild pages OR just send into the DMs by PM.

This entire game revolves around Points—Ability Score points, DCs, Skills, etc.—so having a form of point base recording see to me to just help make DMs maintenance of this system easier.


I will say that if anything is worrisome, and a Wolfy does point out, this Outpost System does put greater focus onto Guilds, and many players RP just as inch but do it in a more solo, non-organization way. These players won’t be able to make use of the Outpost System (as its written now).

Furthermore, as Wolfy also brings up, this System can easily become more beneficial to cliques that are more active, and are more active with DMs. What I’m hoping is that because the System relies on Forum documentation AFTER ingame RP happens, the so-called playing field will remain level in terms of how the DMs decide to grant whom what where.

Personally, I think Guilds should be supported more, in general amd specifically. BUT ALL GUILDS. It has to remain fair and even spread attention and support.

Lastly, I will give some free advice: this Outpost System will fail if two things fall apart. 1) it takes 3+ months for an Outpost to get IG after the RP and points are earned and spent. I hope the DMs and Builders are prepared to make smart and quick decisions + work here, because nothings makes a player quit faster than having their RP and “work” towards a System setup by Staff get ignored. 2) a better understanding of conflict RP, CvC play, etc. Because I can foresee that as soon as a Guild establishes an asset and another Guild moves to “steal” it, dear lord, will the complaints come rolling in.

Good luck!

[Hoihe]

Whether it's abstract OOC resources like "RP points", or abstract IC resources like "logistics points", "manpower points" or what have you...

Resources are the best way to handle guild on guild conflict. You can hinder another from achieving their goals by reducing their resources without removing their ability to play. This is an excellent thing, and gives me hope for good things in the future (like an abstract resource pool for plot lines that can be spent/gained/lost depending on player actions/failure).

[EasternCheesE]

To me, since things are described to be 3-month-long, there is enough time to settle arguments and find compromise. There is enough time to build Guilds patrols and stuff and enough time to undermine these efforts before things actually become real.
Efforts being public is pretty logical since if guild A makes patrols around certain area, everyone will see it. Some may be hidden from IC view, but that's up to DMs to handle these efforts.

[Wolfshear]

An arbitrary ooc mechanic that can be farmed should not dictate rp and the world we all play in. And that is all this will accomplish.

I genuinely fail to see how this will encourage rp or player interaction outside of your current clique in the slightest.
With this kind of system I can ignore everyone, theres no scheming or plotting or building up of influence...And still change the server entirely.
Anyone could do that technically and to me that is an issue. As it is now you cant get anything done without making deals and friends and creating a whole narrative with other players. This just kills that and turns it into some weird ooc grind and bookkeeping instead of a story explored. Nobody has to outwit anyone ever again or build up allies against one another or spend years fixating on a single goal to accomplish it and triumph...Now you can just do random things to score points and ignore everyone.