It very much summarizes my thought on how the Paladin has always been implemented on this server:
Atlas wrote:Hi.
Is the Faithful Warrior variant of the Paladin class still going to be implemented on BGTSCC?
And in that vein, were any of my suggestions for it ever looked at or considered?
Atlas wrote:Subject: BG Content Expansion (poll until Oct 7th)
Rasael wrote:Yes the Faithfull warrior class package is a work in progress.
I don't think the public testing version supports it (other than being view able). I am determining whether I can make it work as a multiplayer class package, or whether it needs to be a seperate base class for technical reasons.
Hi. I don't even know if all of your hard work is going to be implemented; although I dearly hope more than anything else in this place that it will be; for it will be like a new expansion pack to this aged game we still play.
In regards to the Faithful Warrior Paladin Package thing - I was hoping to pass my own ideas about it across to you, for whatever it is worth:
-Change- # Change the name to "The Faithful Companion"
-Change- # At level 1 receive the "Luck of Heroes" feat for free in addition to your normal feat selection.
Level 6 - Bless Weapon at will [This is good, but the spell really needs to be fixed so that it does Divine Damage, and not magical damage, and that it's duration does not expire before it should. It should last for 30 minutes at level thirty.]
-Change- # At level 9 receive the "Power Attack" Feat - In regards to this, it gives the player more options to receive the precursor feat to Divine Might; rather than just Divine Might without Power Attack. Not everyone wants to take Divine Might or Epic Divine Might after all. And they are a pain to use in-game due to them taking a full round to invoke.
-Change-# At level 11 receive the "Cleave" Feat
Level 13 - Receive the "Extra Smiting" Feat - This is definitely a good move, and ideally all Paladins should get this feat for free.
-Change-# At level 16, change this to any weapon wielded by the Paladin becomes a Holy Avenger (has the Holy Sword properties), while it is equipped. This really would flavour wise, as well as other reasons be a really good move, and give reason for people to progress in this class past the first four levels.
-Change-# At level 21 receive the feat "Epic Smiting I" - Again this would be great mechanically, as well as favour-wise. Just as long as in order to keep taking the Great Smiting feat line, from Great Smiting II onwards you need to have the proper charisma requirements. Also, I would lower those requirements from 25 Charisma to 23 or something. Just as other classes like the Barbarian have been helped out in this regard.
-Change-# At level 25 receive the "Epic Prowess" feat for free.
-Change-# At level 30 receive two extra used of Lay on Hands. So you can invoke Lay on Hands three times before resting, instead of only once per rest. - Flavour wise and both game mechanics wise this would again be a really good move.
What I am suggesting here, would make this alternative path for the Paladin class not only decently strong, but fun to play on Baldur's Gate: The Sword Coast Chronicles.
Looking at what has been done for the Man at Arms, and how far the Paladin now lags behind all the other Fighter Variant classes, with the Holy Sword duration nerf and Bless Weapon and Lawful sword not even doing divine damage, or giving their additional benefits, my new suggestion for the Paladin would be to simply make him a solid Fighter variant class with the same advantages given that have helped the Man at Arms:
- D12 Hit Dice
- The additional bonus feat every four or five levels?
- Heavy Armour Optimization 1 and 2 as bonus feats at the same levels the Man at Arms receives them.
- Tumble as a class skill.
The main thing that frustrates me to no end with my favourite class in this game is that it has always been pidgeoned holed into being this longsword and shield fighter with a slew of superficial buffs.
There is no option for any other or more heroic way to build a Paladin here. Ideally wielding a heroic two handed weapon should be just as viable for the class. It is supposed to be a heroic class. A great champion of order and good who slays great champions of evil on the battlefield, and through his valour inspires his allies to feats of courage and valour themselves.
In fact scrapping the spell book entirely, and adding these features:
- D12 Hit Dice.
- The additional bonus feat every four or five levels?
- Heavy Armour Optimization 1 and 2 as bonus feats at the same levels the Man at Arms receives them.
- Tumble as a class skill.
Onto this:
-Change- # At level 1 receive the "Luck of Heroes" feat for free in addition to your normal feat selection.
Level 6 - Bless Weapon at will [This is good, but the spell really needs to be fixed so that it does Divine Damage, and not magical damage, and that it's duration does not expire before it should. It should last for 30 minutes at level thirty.]
-Change- # At level 9 receive the "Power Attack" Feat - In regards to this, it gives the player more options to receive the precursor feat to Divine Might; rather than just Divine Might without Power Attack. Not everyone wants to take Divine Might or Epic Divine Might after all. And they are a pain to use in-game due to them taking a full round to invoke.
-Change-# At level 11 receive the "Cleave" Feat
Level 13 - Receive the "Extra Smiting" Feat - This is definitely a good move, and ideally all Paladins should get this feat for free.
-Change-# At level 16, change this to any weapon wielded by the Paladin becomes a Holy Avenger (has the Holy Sword properties), while it is equipped. This really would flavour wise, as well as other reasons be a really good move, and give reason for people to progress in this class past the first four levels.
-Change-# At level 21 receive the feat "Epic Smiting I" - Again this would be great mechanically, as well as favour-wise. Just as long as in order to keep taking the Great Smiting feat line, from Great Smiting II onwards you need to have the proper charisma requirements. Also, I would lower those requirements from 25 Charisma to 23 or something. Just as other classes like the Barbarian have been helped out in this regard.
-Change-# At level 25 receive the "Epic Prowess" feat for free.
-Change-# At level 30 receive two extra used of Lay on Hands. So you can invoke Lay on Hands three times before resting, instead of only once per rest. - Flavour wise and both game mechanics wise this would again be a really good move.
Would be far more in line with what the class is supposed to be in the lore, and how it was originally designed in DnD and Ad&D. A good representation of this being the Baldur's Gate games, and its amazing implementation there.
Bearing in mind that after all of this time nothing has changed. The only times the class has ever been empowered was through lopsided spell gimmicks and being made reliant on a spell book that was never the intended design model of the class.
Everyone I have talked to who used to play a Paladin for the role play and ideals it proposes, and has since given up, tells me the same thing that I hold to myself.
People want to play a Paladin who represents what the intended core design model of the class was supposed to be, and is attributed to in the lore of the setting.
In fact this quote I have taken directly from The Complete Paladins Handbook, an AD&D Second Edition Baldur's Gate Game Series era source book, regarding Anti-Paladins, actually tells you very succinctly what the Paladin's role in the setting is supposed to be:
Anti-Paladins
What better nemesis for a paladin than his direct opposite, an "anti paladin" that embodies the forces of evil? As the mirror image of a normal paladin, an anti paladin might be able to detect the presence of good, generate a aura of protection against good creatures, and wield an "unholy" sword.
Though DMs may experiment with any type of character they like, we discourage the use of anti-paladins. Good and evil are not merely mirror images of each other. Just as the forces of evil have their unique champions, the paladin is intended as a unique champion of good. The paladin originates from a tradition of dynamic balance, in which the forces of good are few and elite and in which forces of evil are numerous and of lesser quality. Allowing anti-paladins blurs this basic relationship.
Rasael wrote:You can already double them: with Extend Spell.
The real issue you are running into is that you probably feel like you can't justify taking that feat.
And I suspect you think you have too few spell slots.
Having to prioritize and assign spell slots is part of the class. It means planning ahead and strategizing. Which is very difficult, just as with Wizards and (caster) Clerics. And extend spell sounds like it fits your playstyle because you want longer durations.
The other posters are correct about casterlevel progression. It has already been doubled on BGTSCC.
The spell selection has also been vastly increased. I'd say doubled but I think it may have more than doubled.
Content wise I do not recall any pending changes for the Paladin.
We do have a number of kits in development.
Rasael,
The Paladin is not supposed to be some kind of Exalted Fighter/Wizard who rubs bat dung on his sword and is reliant on a spell book. A Wizard lives and dies by his spell book, and there is a plethora of Eldritch classes for him to combine such with physical fighting.
The Paladin is supposed to be an Exalted Medieval Fighting Man who has been empowered by a god of honour and righteousness to do battle with champions of evil and inspire mundane warriors of lesser quality to be better than what they are.
He is Godfrey of Boulion - the Proto-Templar and model for The Knights Templar as their secondary source of inspiration after being unable to emulate the pacifism of Jesus Christ, because their primary duty was the protect The Pilgrims Road to Jerusalum from brigands and other villainy.
He is the King Arthur and his Knights of Arthurian Mythology, and Roland and his Durandel and the other Companions of Charlemagne from medieval Frankish mythology and literature.
The Fisher King.
The Green Knight.
Saint George and the Dragon.
The fiction that romanticized Richard the Lionheart in Robin Hood and such English folklore.
Peter the Hermit and his crusade.
King John the Good of France.
Edward III and The Knights of the Garter.
Joan of Arc.
Edward of Woodstock (The Black Prince).
Louis the Righteous (King of France).
William Marshall of England and the myths and legends surrounding him.
Jaques deMolay, the last Grand Master of The Knights Templar, who was burned at the stake.
The Holy Avenger is based on mythical weapons of heroic medieval romances and sagas like Excalibur, Durdandal, The Sword of Jerusalem etc ...
The Paladins first Divine Power and feat 'Lay on Hands' is derived from Jesus Christ in the Bible and his healing the sick with his hands. In the middle ages this mythology was spread further by pious and devout Priests and physicians who would put themselves in harms way and often times sacrifice their lives trying to emulate his example with the victims of The Black Plague.
The following Paladin spell bugs have I believe been consciously ignored, and do not grant the divine damage and other benefits that is written in their very description in the game, and on Nwn2 Wiki, and inside the old Nwn2 instruction manual, and derived from the source books.
There is no precedent for any of the weapon damage buffs in the Paladin spell book giving magical damage. Holiness in DnD has always been attributed to the divine = Divine damage = link/conduit of a divine power.
The level one Paladin spell [Bless Weapon] still does magical damage, and not the divine damage it is meant to. Also it is still completely unknown as to whether your weapon transforms to be counted as good aligned for the purposed of overcoming damage reduction.
I don't know why you would say this as a member of the Quality Control Staff, when in December/January of last year and this year there was a LOT of fiddling around with Holy Sword, Bless Weapon and Lawful Sword.mrm3ntalist wrote:Constant tweaking? Wasnt only the Holy sword cahnged to not stay on the weapon after its duration expires? Was there something else?
The best scenario that there was for the class was the brief time I wasn't able to experience myself, where all three were fixed and did Divine Damage, surrounding a giant furore over what non Paladin players felt in regards to loosing their wands of Holy Sword and Bless Weapon [Practically the only thing the class has/had going for it], and their negative feelings when it was suggested that they shouldn't be able to exploit the Paladins only natural resource for their own gains and benefits; especially when their own classes are abundant with resources.
They were then all subsequently nerfed again. Lawful Sword and Bless Weapons were changed back to magical damage, and Lawful Sword having its duration increased to 10 rounds/level was the consolation prize.
Lawful Sword per its spell description should be doing Divine Damage, and it is supposed to cast Magic Circle against Evil on its caster at the same time, for the duration of the spell.
Holy Sword is by the source books meant to be 6 rounds/level. But then three minutes for thirty levels of a class that receives no real powerful feats, and otherwise plays like a Fighter bereft of about twenty feat choices, isn't much to write home about. And nor is it fair. It should be 10 rounds/level.
I have looked at the forums and websites of two other prominent servers and seen how those places have made the class better at least. Not really how I would do it, and I have put my thoughts into many words above this paragraph, but still a far-cry better than the situation the class faces on BGTSCC.
The point I am making here is that these servers saw a need to drastically improve the class, as I will gives examples of below:
Example #1
Sigil City of Doors:
Paladin and Ranger Spell ProgressionEdit
Paladins and Rangers cast with the same power as full casters (effectively 1 caster level per class level).
In addition they gain spells from level 1 and more castings per day.
They gain up to 6 spells of each level, with a new spell use gained every level. Bonus spells can add to this.
They gain access to level 1 spells at level 1, level 2 spells at level 5, level 3 at 9, and level 4 at 13.
Example #2
Realms of Trinity
Class Description
KPRC / ROT Customized
Paladin
Divine power protects the paladin and gives her special powers. It wards off harm, protects her from disease, lets her heal herself, and guards her heart against fear. A paladin can also direct this power to help others, healing their wounds or curing diseases. Finally, a paladin can use this power to destroy evil. Even a novice paladin can detect evil, and more experienced paladins can smite evil foes and turn away undead.
Class Features:
- Alignment Restrictions: Lawful good. Paladins must be lawful good, and they lose their divine powers if they deviate from that alignment.
- Hit Die: d10
- Base Attack Bonus: High.
- High Saves: Fortitude.
- Weapon Proficiencies: Simple and martial weapons.
- Armor Proficiencies: All types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
- Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier per level, x4 at first level.
- Class Skills: Concentration, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Diplomacy, Heal, Lore, Parry, and Tumble.
- Smite Evil: Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day. At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional times per day. At Level 15, 6 Uses / Day,
Level 20 8 Uses / Day, Level 25 10 Uses / Day, and at Level 30 - 12 Uses / Day.
- Divine Grace: At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
- Lay on Hands: Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level times her Charisma bonus. For example, a 7th-level paladin with a 16 Charisma (+3 bonus) can heal 21 points of damage per day.
- Aura of Courage: Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.
- Divine Health: At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).
- Turn Undead: When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the ability to rebuke or destroy undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.
- Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance. To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Wis 10 for 0-level spells, Wis 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth).
- Remove Disease: At 6th level, a paladin can remove disease once per day. At 9th level and every three levels after that, the paladin can cure disease one more time per day.
- Divine Spirit: At 5th level, a paladin is granted their alternate class feature instead of a mount: Divine Spirit.
Benefit: Upon reaching 5th level, you can call upon your deity for aid in the form of a celestial spirit. Using this ability is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Your paladin level determines which kinds of celestial spirits answer your summons. You can summon the spirit available at your current level as well as any that became available at lower levels.
Paladin Level
5th: Spirit of Healing
10th: Spirit of Combat 1/day
15th: Spirit of Heroism 1/day
20th: Spirit of the Fallen 1/day
25th: Spirit of Heroism 2/day
30th: Spirit of the Fallen 2/day
Each spirit available to you can be summoned once per day. A spirit remains for a number of rounds equal to your paladin level (except for Spirit of Healing which provides a passive benefit).
Spirit of Healing: This spirit increases your ability heal damage to you or your allies. This grants the Paladin the equivalent of two additional uses of Lay on Hands (healing version).
Spirit of Combat: This spirit enhances combat ability. You and your allies within 10' when the spirit is summoned gain holy fervor. Holy fervor grants a +1 sacred bonus on attack and damage rolls for every four paladin levels you possess (up to a maximum of +7 at 28th level). This is an instantly activated ability.
Spirit of Heroism: You gain DR 10/-. In addition, you gain bonus hit points equal to your character level. This is an instantly activated ability.
Spirit of the Fallen: You summon a celestial spirit to watch over you and your allies within 30 feet. You and your allies present when the spirit is summoned gain fast healing 10 and a ward against death. If those warded against death drop to 0 or fewer hps the spirit revives that character. The character revived heals an amount equal to twice your paladin level. This is an instantly activated ability.
You gain additional bonus feats at levels 18, 20, 29, and 30.
Changes to feat uses / Day:
Level 15 Smite Evil 4 - 6 Uses / Day
Level 20 Smite Evil 5 - 8 Uses / Day
Level 25 Smite Evil 6 - 10 Uses / Day
Level 30 Smite Evil 7 - 12 Uses / Day
Auto Granted Feats at following levels:
Level 20 - Paladin Purist. Epic Energy Immunity I - Cold, Acid, Fire, Electrical
Level 24 - Epic Energy Immunity II - Cold, Acid, Fire, Electrical
Level 30 - Epic Energy Immunity III - Cold, Acid, Fire, Electrical
And this website about Pathfinder has an amazing looking setup for the class too:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin
For the first two years I did try some combinations like Paladin/Ranger/Fighter/Divine Champion, and Paladin/Fighter/Divine Champion out of a sense being a lot less knowledgeable and familiar with the game mechanics all those years ago.
For the next six years after that my character had all of his levels in the Paladin class and nothing else.
These days my character sheet looks like this:
Six levels of Whirling Dervish gets me Whirlwind Attack, which is a combat animation in this game that actually looks good. I would rather have that then nothing in the current landscape.
I don't like the 2D6 Sneak Attack feat, but I highly doubt the staff would be willing to replace it for something equally useful but more appropriate.
My character has Evasion in heavy armour these days. Works wonders in dungeons, and last I checked I have never heard of anyone else calling out for this feat to be fixed so that it only works if you have no armour other than cloth equipped, or no armour at all.
In fact I have to say that it would have to be the most useful and powerful feat my character has ever had. The Paladin certainly has never had anything like it.
All those years of trying to get people to look at the class in its roots and pure origin, and trying to lobby the staff to forget the superfluous gimmicks and Wizard play and go back to the core design elements that the class is supposed to have, and then branch out from there, and nothing ever changed.
In the Baldur's Gate Games and AD&D the Paladin is wholly focused only as a mythical hero and crusader of law and good, and it is only in the last levels of the progression chart that they receive a small slew of Cleric spells to be representative of their long personal journey to holiness and right action and thought and word.
Almost like a symbolic gesture from Torm or Tyr or Helm to that specific Paladin who has survived to reach that point that he has made it. And lived up to the ideals of virtue and chivalry and overcoming evil not with evil but with good, as the only way to see Humanity and the other races progress as a community.
Their power has always supposed to come from their physical might, and purity of faith and ideals. And their legacy those whose lives are made better through their noble deeds and causes against the evils of the world.
*Edited for clarity ...*
