Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

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MaskedOne1
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Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by MaskedOne1 »

elloes,

is the epic skill focus; bluff feat implementet on the server?

if yes, i do not seem to be able to find it?
if no, how come?

cheers
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Theodore01
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by Theodore01 »

Only these 3 epic skill focus feats are available: diplomacy, intimidate and heal.

Bluff was considered too powerful, as one can spam feint all day.
MaskedOne1
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by MaskedOne1 »

elloes,

already have skill focus bluff, picking the epic version would increase the skill by 7 more ranks total, this is too powerful?

"shrug" i dont get it, all the nerfs, i dont understand it, balance is an illusion in D&D 3.5 imo.

cheers
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Blackman D
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by Blackman D »

epic skill focuses are +10, and bluff has a strong mechanical benefit because of feint

heal is also pretty strong but its something anyone and everyone can use which offsets itself, as opposed to feint that needs spot to counter
everyone is evil till proven otherwise
MaskedOne1
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by MaskedOne1 »

elloes,

the same could be said about the spell blindness/deafness or the even more powerful spell mass blindness/deafness, the monks stunning fist, the assassins death attack etc (im sure i could go on forever). im sorry, im just having real difficulty figuring out how you make these distinctions / decisions, what is too powerful and what is not, i dont any see any logic behind it, except a subjective wish to nerf some classes, abilities and feats, but not others.

as far as i can tell all you are doing is shifting around what classes and builds power players prefer.

is there a thread on the forum where these things are discussed / explained? i would love to see that.

cheers
EasternCheesE
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

But, none of things you listed are tied to skill checks, but to class level/ability modifier and those can't get such a huge bump with single feat.
Stunning fist is (DC 10 + 1/2 the attacker's level + the attacker's Wisdom modifier).
Death attack is assassin level + int mod. Having 22 int and assassin 10 means you will have dc 26 on death attack which is low. Not mentioning its related to both mind magic and paralizis immunities (as of combat log) and many epic mobs have either one or even both.
As of spells, you don't get +10 DC with epic school specialization either and you also have to invest 3 feats to get +3 DC in total, so it's 1/10 of DC one can achieve without focus feats.
With adding +10 focus, it means you get 1/3 of your max natural bluff for just 1 feat.

So far, mobs are tuned in respect with currenly possible foci and gear (more or less), so one has to invest to make those work. Getting +10 bluff only means mobs will get +10 spot to balance it, which will make everyone who don't take that feat in worse situation.
Or, it will mean you will have 50% more chance to feint an enemy compared to those who didn't take the feat if mobs remain as they are.
MaskedOne1
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by MaskedOne1 »

but, to be able to use the feint skill the way you describe it, you have to invest in two feats; Combat Expertise and Feint.

In addition, mechanics-wise, im quite certain you guys are wrong, if you already have Skill Focus: Bluff (+3), taking Epic Skill Focus: Bluff nets you +7 more, for a total of +10, not a total of +13.

So i invest in three to four feats to be able to bluff well and feint (in addition to this, my charisma score must also be decent, meaning i have to invest attribute points here as well, and also custom all my gear towards Feinting, if i want to have any chance at success at epic levels), so i dont think the premises in your post holds water, a bump of +7 isnt that big, and if you want you could even make taking Skill Focus: Bluff a prerequiste of Epic Skill Focus: Bluff.

Stunning fist can be increased by selecting epic feats, or if you have access to Owls Wisdom spell, you can have an insane DC on your stunning fists.

the point i am trying to make is, the system of NWN2 3.5 rules is complicated, and the machinations done trying to balance the server are (sorry) obviously futile, since some classes simple are more powerful than others, no matter what you do.

i would argue that "you" are tryig to balance the server against power builders (or those that just build really well), leaving other players in the dust.

this is not an attack btw, i really am wondering about why/how the decisions are made, so thank you for giving me some insight EasterncheesE, it is appreciated

cheers
EasternCheesE
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

MaskedOne1 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:00 pm but, to be able to use the feint skill the way you describe it, you have to invest in two feats; Combat Expertise and Feint.

In addition, mechanics-wise, im quite certain you guys are wrong, if you already have Skill Focus: Bluff (+3), taking Epic Skill Focus: Bluff nets you +7 more, for a total of +10, not a total of +13.

So i invest in three to four feats to be able to bluff well and feint (in addition to this, my charisma score must also be decent, meaning i have to invest attribute points here as well, and also custom all my gear towards Feinting, if i want to have any chance at success at epic levels), so i dont think the premises in your post holds water, a bump of +7 isnt that big, and if you want you could even make taking Skill Focus: Bluff a prerequiste of Epic Skill Focus: Bluff.

Stunning fist can be increased by selecting epic feats, or if you have access to Owls Wisdom spell, you can have an insane DC on your stunning fists.

the point i am trying to make is, the system of NWN2 3.5 rules is complicated, and the machinations done trying to balance the server are (sorry) obviously futile, since some classes simple are more powerful than others, no matter what you do.

i would argue that "you" are tryig to balance the server against power builders (or those that just build really well), leaving other players in the dust.

this is not an attack btw, i really am wondering about why/how the decisions are made, so thank you for giving me some insight EasterncheesE, it is appreciated

cheers
1) Owl's insight is +6 to stunning fists DC at cost of ~12k per 1 elixir. One would get poor pretty fast using them on regular basis. And stunning fists are not infinite, thus, monk will have to rest sooner or later, especially since ki abilities consume those usages too (not everyone wait those 2 min for free ki-step).

2) Even if we consider it's only +7 (but why would you take regular focus when you can take epic one anyway if that was available since they don't stack, so it is still +10).
As of bump not that big. d20 + Base Attack Bonus + Total Spot skill + Other bonuses.
You literally deduct 10 from that d20 with epic skill focus: bluff compared SF bluff, which deducts 3. 35% more chance to feint enemy compared not having this feat for same 1 feat. It's not "small" thing in my view.
For feinter build, featwise, you basically just need CE and feint, if you add epic bluff, it's 3 feats (because why would you want regular one that doesn't stack with epic one?). Having good CHA nets you same bonus as 1-2 feint items (i doubt one would invest over 16 CHA and weaken their other attributes severely) and +5 you can get from it is huge investment since it makes you weaker in other aspects.

Combat expertise is not useless feat at all while some classes require to take way more useless things as requirement, so counting it as "take another feat to get access to feint" is not so correct when we compare to Epic spell focus which gives 3 dc and requires 3 feats (which could be translated into 3 epic feats for attribute score for more spells and still having more DC). Not mentioning Reili's belt which gives you feint for free.

3) Giving up and not trying to balance things that can be balanced is not a thing i'd consider good for healthy server. While we can't make it excellent, we still can make it better and more balanced that it is in it's original view. While certain classes are obviously better than others, adding epic bluff will just make another "mandatory feat" for feinter builds and add more class disparity since there are no other combat-related skill changes you proposed that get such bump from epic focus.
MaskedOne1
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by MaskedOne1 »

elloes,

i whole heartedly disagree. thanks for the debate though!

1. cast Owls Insigt on yourself if you have spirit shaman levels. my spirit monk does this routinely, or alternatively get a little help from a friend :)

2. all i can say here is, i would select skill focus bluff and then the epic version later, this was my plan, as my char evolves as i gain levels and i would need each feat to increase the bluff to meet the opponents i face along the way, you dont start as level 30 :) i also suggested you could make the normal Skill Focus feat a prerequisite to take the epic one :) (that would make it four feat selections then, instead of three).

the Epic Spell Focus feats do more than add DC to spells of that school only, at least currently for six or seven schools of magic out of eight, all except Abjuration (possibly) and Enchantment. there are also plans to add "special stuff" to those as well, as i understand it, but it has not been implementet yet. so these feats are also not "useless", just as you write combat expertise isnt useless (of course it is not, never suggested anything like that), it all depends on what type of character you want to make yes? your analogy fails here, it is the same, incremental feat selection to gain access to more stuff.

i was not aware of the belt you mentioned, and i have been on the server for 3+ years, but ill def take a look at that!
i was also not aware that i had to propose skill changes, or a fix if you will, but i would suggest allowing all the other Epic Skill Focus feats back in the game, including spot to counter bluff.

3. you wrote:
Giving up and not trying to balance things that can be balanced is not a thing i'd consider good for healthy server. While we can't make it excellent, we still can make it better and more balanced that it is in it's original view. While certain classes are obviously better than others, adding epic bluff will just make another "mandatory feat" for feinter builds and add more class disparity since there are no other combat-related skill changes you proposed that get such bump from epic focus.


i guess this is my point. it cannot be balanced, and making it "better" is just a subjective point of view, of what is to be prioritised and made "most powerful" instead, the disparity you avoid by taking out one feat, just makes another more advantageous. my suggestion would be leave it all in and let us have fun with it :)

i look forward to your reply.

i appreciate the dialog, i have nothing more to add on the matter, i try to offer food for thought, thanks

cheers
EasternCheesE
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

1) Monk/spirit shaman is not a common way to build monk, don't you agree? Since you have to invest into CHA for DCs (if you care about them), also weakening monk feats since minks are good at 30.

Well, instead of counterargumenting, i'd just say that we have different points of view on this topic. While i support the way there is no access epic SF: many of them (and it was implemented way before i joined Bgtscc community) and find it bringing more balance to server, while you don't. And it's totally good since there is no straight one answer to server balance.

I just hope you got my idea that there are some reasons behind this (as i believe mobs are tuned with the lack of this skill available for players), thus, while you disagree with this approach, you get view from the other side that it's not unthough decision and has some brain work behind it.

Thank you for keeping it civilized while we have opposite opinions about it.
As for me, your proposition could have better chances (i don't speak for administration, it's just my point of view) to be implemented if you accounted more factors to ESF: many change and proposed them as one pack, including other possible needed changes to reintegrate them as seamless as possible.
To my view, implementing it as described would just give a huge bump to feinters (since you can get high enough bluff for RP even without it), while everyone else would get nothing.
For example, if this is added, that'd require area builders to make mobs a bit stronger so one can't feint cr 28 mobs 4/5 times trying. Which means increased spot which means sneak-based PCs will have harder times sneaking around (and it's already quite time and gold consuming since you have to get almost a full set of hide/ms gear for it to work).
Thaelis
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Re: Epic Skill Focus: Bluff

Unread post by Thaelis »

Imo the whole balancing of Sneak attack was done in consideration that you can only use it in certain circumstances. If you could use it every round with 100% chance of success then it would become pretty unbalanced.

There's no comparison between Stunning Fist and Feint. No monk build could possibly have a 100% stun chance (a 30th level character's saves range between +25 and +50, they'd need a DC of 45-70) but 100% Bluff/Feint chance would be easily achievable with Epic Skill Focus (it's probably already achievable without it).

Your character is always going to be weak against some kind of opponent. High level Druids and Rangers (read: Vanira) used to **** me off no end when I was a stealther as they'd easily see through my +80 Hide/MS. Look on the bright side though your superpower still works on 90% of players! :D
Thalanis Silverleaf - Moon Elf Woodsman Deceased

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