Polymorph/shapechange bugs

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DiceyCZ
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by DiceyCZ »

Well, with the same set of wards and gear some of the feats that I get from the wearables don't register in my feat list on character sheet. I'll take some pictures, likewise with the regen.
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DiceyCZ
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by DiceyCZ »

Image
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Btw there seems to be lot of differences here, feats from gear work on some forms and on some they don't, regeneration acts the same way and some forms get rid of pollyspellfix and some don't on returning to original form.
Niyressa Dawncrow (bio) - Steward, House Aldren
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DiceyCZ
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by DiceyCZ »

Hello,
So I went through every single form on Polymorph and Shapechange lists with my tiefling wizard. And this is the result - From all the forms avaliable to me, Planetar and Arboreal Elf only get Weapon stats and AC bonuses, they do not retain Atribute bonuses, Feats, Skill bonuses or Regeneration.

I tested it unbuffed and without switching gear.
Niyressa Dawncrow (bio) - Steward, House Aldren
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Endelyon
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by Endelyon »

This is by design because those item slots get replaced by different gear in those forms. No feats from items will be transferred to your new form because the new form is actually wearing items on those slots. You do retain the feats you actually learned as a character though, so the Arboreal Elf in particular seems most useful on a character who already knows Point Blank Shot. :)
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DiceyCZ
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by DiceyCZ »

Endelyon wrote:This is by design because those item slots get replaced by different gear in those forms. No feats from items will be transferred to your new form because the new form is actually wearing items on those slots. You do retain the feats you actually learned as a character though, so the Arboreal Elf in particular seems most useful on a character who already knows Point Blank Shot. :)
Except that all other forms do retain these bonuses. At least the feats according to feat list and all other forms do regenerate and get skills etc.

EDIT: BTW if this is truly intentional and all other forms are broken, then shapeshifting focus is truly useless on arcane character. For example we already need 3 feats just to replace +4 boots (which is item I find most regularly out of epic items) and you need another feat to make it at least medium BAB, and unlike gish mage you can't boost your physical stats to raise it so you are completely dependand on stats from forms. Of course it will never be a DC mage but you still need 30CL because if something dispells you and throws you out of shape...you are toast and you already can't combine more than one skill item so it will never be much of a sneaker. And you really can't add feats like point blank shot or dodge or toughnes (regularly found on items) on your build because it is incredibly feat starved. And you can't use GMW or Keen and I have yet to see weapon with 1d4 ele and keen spell. And unlike druids, mages get no ele dmg on weapon with spell and you can't take activable feats like other melee characters do, or any toggable feat of the custom feats, even if you could fit it.

So am I completely crazy or am I just missing something here...
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chad878262
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by chad878262 »

Items did not transfer to forms in the original shapechange either and it still wasn't so vastly underpowered as to be useless. The forms are balanced such that (especially with all the buffs you can cast before shapechange) the forms should be fine without bonuses from items.
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DiceyCZ
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by DiceyCZ »

chad878262 wrote:Items did not transfer to forms in the original shapechange either and it still wasn't so vastly underpowered as to be useless. The forms are balanced such that (especially with all the buffs you can cast before shapechange) the forms should be fine without bonuses from items.
I don't want to be rude here...but was anyone actually ever using Shapechange for combat on their level of dificulty or other than for RP? :) I did see one person and that might have been some 4 years ago when I had my brief visits on the server, in the last 2-3 years I have been here I haven't seen anyone. Quite frankly my CHA bard who was build mostly supportively was doing better in solo PVE on lower lvl without requiem.

But if this is really the decision then I'd like to report another bug and that is - ALL of the forms except from Planetar and Arboreal elf are broken and use feats and other bonuses from items.

Anyways, thank you for clarifying, I'll let the matter go now.
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by Nemni »

It does not make a whole lot of sense though, if the Arboreal elf does not get transferred bonuses while the Erinye does, given that they are basically just good/evil mirrors of each other stat-wise. Bonuses should transfer.
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by chad878262 »

I would say that the bug is if items are transferring to any forms. Nachti worked very hard to balance the forms around Druid/Wizard spellbooks with regard to AC buffs, Attack Bonus buffs and damage buffs. The idea is not to make Wizards better at combat in shapechange than a 30th level melee fighter with no casting. The forms are perfectly viable without items when you consider the spell list of buff like greater heroism, IMA, Deez, Shadow Shield, Superior Resistance, etc... If you're expecting the Wizard archer to be better at archery than some Manyshot Assassin you will be disappointed.
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DiceyCZ
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by DiceyCZ »

chad878262 wrote:I would say that the bug is if items are transferring to any forms. Nachti worked very hard to balance the forms around Druid/Wizard spellbooks with regard to AC buffs, Attack Bonus buffs and damage buffs. The idea is not to make Wizards better at combat in shapechange than a 30th level melee fighter with no casting. The forms are perfectly viable without items when you consider the spell list of buff like greater heroism, IMA, Deez, Shadow Shield, Superior Resistance, etc... If you're expecting the Wizard archer to be better at archery than some Manyshot Assassin you will be disappointed.
Of course I don't expect that, quite frankly I don't expect them to be better than fighters at melee. But I don't see how items with basic level feats (and never saw any more powerful) like dodge and point blank shot make that happen.
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by chad878262 »

There are items with toughness, sneak attack, power attack, use per day like ethereal and all sorts of other stuff.
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DiceyCZ
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by DiceyCZ »

Can't use activable items in forms...so really don't see how it's viable for this conversation.

Well, it's really shame to make gearing completely useless for shifters...is all I mean. Because if all we can get is AC which we get from spells and AC that we don't have on spells (dodge) we can't get from items either way...that doesn't leave whole lot to gear for except getting diplomacy gear for when you are out of form.
Niyressa Dawncrow (bio) - Steward, House Aldren
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by chad878262 »

Dev would have to comment, but best of my recollection you either allow items in form or you don't... I don't think you can allow feats, but not other benefits of the items.


Edit: I will try testing it tomorrow if I get some time
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Steve
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by Steve »

Item properties merge with new shape. Only best slot merges.
Natural, Deflection, and Armor AC from items merge, dodge AC does not merge.
Permanent weapon enchantments carries over to creatures who use weapons.
If one breaks down the Polymorphing description from the Wiki:

- Item Properties: it would seem then, as Endelyon pointed out, that Planatar and Arboreal Elf have BETTER items on the Shape than one could have on the Inventory of the PC. This would reflect the "best slot merges" principle. Is it actually working that way though?

- Gearing isn't useless, since Natural and Deflection and Armor AC bonuses transfer. Should Feats from gear transfer? I guess that Feats-on-gear is not considered "Item Properties," from the former line. Would Power Attack from an Item, transferring over to a shape, be unbalanced? But it has already been argued that Custom Combat feats are OP to transfer to Shapes...so why should ANY Feats transfer over then?

- If you get a very nice Weapon with lots of properties, those transfer over to the Planatar and the Arboreal elf (melee or ranged, natch). I've seen the benefit of that!!! So that these 2 shapes have other deficits in other departments, it would seem fair. Because otherwise the Planatar is like a wrecking ball of a form and from my empirical experience with the Forms from Shapechange, Planatar is usually the go-to form if my Character has a weapon (the other Forms are very situational).

What one also has to learn with Shapechange is, since you can shift/unshift multiple times during the spells duration, you return to Normal Form periodically to use Items (like Heal Kits, pots, etc.), then quickly again into Form and go bash the crap out of mobs. This shift/unshift aspect is key, and one of the best features of creating a Polymorphing caster, arcane or divine.
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Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs

Unread post by chad878262 »

I have been testing Polymorph and Shapechange in game and have posted several findings in QC. There do appear to be some inconsistencies which I won't repeat here, but if there are specific forms, abilities, etc. you want tested please post them or send me a PM. I'm not going to read through the whole thread to find them. So far I have tested Polymorph Troll form and Shapechange Hill Giant and Arboreal Elf form.

My testing consists of casting shapechange (or polymorph), then changing back and forth while equipping items one at a time, then casting spells one at a time to determine what is applying benefit in form and what is not. When necessary I also go in game to determine if the combat log matches up since at times the character sheet lies.
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