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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:22 pm 
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I have been testing Polymorph and Shapechange in game and have posted several findings in QC. There do appear to be some inconsistencies which I won't repeat here, but if there are specific forms, abilities, etc. you want tested please post them or send me a PM. I'm not going to read through the whole thread to find them. So far I have tested Polymorph Troll form and Shapechange Hill Giant and Arboreal Elf form.

My testing consists of casting shapechange (or polymorph), then changing back and forth while equipping items one at a time, then casting spells one at a time to determine what is applying benefit in form and what is not. When necessary I also go in game to determine if the combat log matches up since at times the character sheet lies.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Hey Chad,
I mentioned this to Valefort a number of days ago:

Quote:
...last night on my Spirit Shaman shapechanger, when I used his +4 heavy shield, I only witnessed a +1 bonus on AC over using no equipped shield at all (it should grant +2).


Shield spell grants +4 AC (shield type). An enchanted shield grants 1/2 total bonus, so a +4 Shield should be giving +2 AC (shield) when shaped.

But it isn't, unless the Character Sheet is lying (but doing so consistently through all shapes).

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Steve wrote:
Hey Chad,
I mentioned this to Valefort a number of days ago:

Quote:
...last night on my Spirit Shaman shapechanger, when I used his +4 heavy shield, I only witnessed a +1 bonus on AC over using no equipped shield at all (it should grant +2).


Shield spell grants +4 AC (shield type). An enchanted shield grants 1/2 total bonus, so a +4 Shield should be giving +2 AC (shield) when shaped.

But it isn't, unless the Character Sheet is lying (but doing so consistently through all shapes).


Bah, my QC Character is a Sorcerer and can't use a shield! Though I have noticed a strange issue where some forms do not benefit from the +4 AC when Deez is up, but do gain the AC when Shield is. Not sure if this is related, but will have to create a SS to test that. thanks Steve, I'll look in to it.

Edit: And that's why they gave us a tool for that. Tested and confirmed Steve.

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Last edited by chad878262 on Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:56 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
Bah, my QC Character is a Sorcerer and can't use a shield! Though I have noticed a strange issue where some forms do not benefit from the +4 AC when Deez is up, but do gain the AC when Shield is. Not sure if this is related, but will have to create a SS to test that. thanks Steve, I'll look in to it.


Yeah, I posted the bug with Deezes long time ago...didn't test it very carefully but I am yet to find forms that do benefit from Deeze's at all in terms of the shield AC. Might be good to test "Shades" if it provides the AC or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:58 pm 
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I did not have the issue with Deez when I tested Hill Giant form....The others did have the issue though. Shades also seemed to work, but I will make sure I'm more careful next time just to be sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Thank you, for doing the testing.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:37 pm 
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DiceyCZ wrote:
Thank you, for doing the testing.

Yes, thanks for looking into it Chad.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Done testing for today and will not be in game tomorrow at all to test. I will continue when I'm able, but can't promise this week. Here are a few findings that may help.

- With SF/GSF/ESF Transmutation AC in forms is anywhere between ~40-49 or so. Considering you still get the concealment from Deez (or displacement) and mirror images your defense is as good or better than most.

- With Augment Form your AB is anywhere from ~38-43 or so. Good enough considering the 38 AB forms tend to have better defenses or other benefits.

- Damage is solid on most forms. Not great, but serviceable. Much like a Dragon Druid you won't kill all that quickly, but you're pretty much immune to everything while you do it.

- Interestingly, Sorcerer has an edge with regard to Transmuter-Shifter over Wizard. 7 casts of Shapechange and plenty of casts to keep it buffed means you are about the longest lasting 'buff-and-bash' caster on the server. A bit feat starved, perhaps, which Wizard will be improved due to bonus feats, but a S7/EK10/PM10/DS3 will be a pretty strong combatant with decent AB and defenses. I tested today with S10/PM10/AS10 and could reach the AB listed above. +3 AB from taking EK/DS (as opposed to low BAB caster prc's) would move the form AB using shapechange to ~41-46 which is more than adequate.

- Dodge AC boots never apply in forms, other AC items are dependent on the form. For example, Troll form already has high Natural AC so amulet of Natural Armor +4 doesn't do anything. However, for most forms Steve's statement is correct that Natural/Deflection items are useful.

- Obviously this was based on an arcane shifter. Spirit Shaman is going to have different results. AB will be nice and Tortoise Shell will help most forms a great deal, but will need a wand of IMA and Shield (unless there is a fix for the shield issue Steve posted). AB will be roughly similar since they don't get Greater Heroism, but do have medium BAB and could potentially take some High BAB PRC's with caster progression. SS also has the benefit of not needing Augment Form feat.

- Overall, regardless of if any feats from items apply (this requires a DM to assist with testing and I was unable to be in game when one was present today) the forms allow a caster to have a LOT of staying power in comparison to a DC or especially a blaster who burns spells quickly. May not be as 'powerful' as a DC caster right after a rest, but especially when solo has the benefit of not needing to rest nearly as much. In addition, since you still want to max your casting stat, you can still have a decent DC 'flesh to stone' if you want to shift out of form and drop an enemy quickly.

- As an example, for my sorcerer PC in Fire Giant form... He had 41 AC, 42 AB, 1d12 + 16 + 5 + d6 Fire Damage (~31 damage per hit) along with Saves in the low 20's to mid 30's. 41 AC may seem low, but when you have concealment on mirror images that AC will last just fine...especially when you can drop out of form, re-cast, and re-enter form. Like a Fighter with IPA and ICE you can drop one form for another. When you need AC you just pick a form with ~47+ AC and accept that your damage will drop from ~30's down to low 20's or whatever.

In summary, I must say I see a lot of reasons why you would absolutely want to be a shapeshift focused caster. Not saying there aren't bugs to look at, but I am saying it is false to state that these builds can't handle content of their CR rating. All you have to do is look at the AB, AC, Saves, Immunities and Damage numbers to know that they will do just fine, if you are patient enough to take several rounds to kill each enemy. The Fire Giant above is likely to average ~108.5 damage per round (assuming 3-4 out of 5 attacks land each round) which will kill most epic mobs in 3-5 rounds.

Edit: also, you're welcome steve and dicey...

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:27 pm 
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Thanks for the extensive testing and reporting of results, Chad.

Just want to qualify the parts about sorcs though... Aasimar sorcs, even without spell bonus slots items, will still lose spells per day with every shift, due to their racial charisma bonus apparently.

My Aasimar sorc loses 3 spells (a level 1, 5 and 9!!) with every shift, making the shapechange spell pretty much a deadwood among the precious level 9 known spells.

It's a HUGE bummer for Aasimar sorcs and it doesn't look like it's going to be fixed.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:39 am 
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Mindflyer form rolls 5 times on the Kill on hit DC per hit, but only the first one, if fails, seems to actually count.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:55 am 
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DiceyCZ wrote:
Then I am losing it somewhere, I have lvl 20 so that's 4 spells on each circle +1 for school that's 5, I have 27 INT with items (that's being a tiefling and +2 headgear) and I have Spellcasting prodigy. Yet after shifting I end up with blank LVL1, LVL5 and LVL9 slot which is exactly the difference between 27 and 29 INT.

If it's not spellcasting prodigy, maybe the racial bonus INT and Gear bonus INT stated on polyspellfix doesn't stack?


@Flame_of_Anor... Is this the same issue with Aasimar Sorcs? Dedude said he changed something so the gear bonus and racial bonus would stack, but maybe he only changed for INT and not for CHA? If it is something quick and simple I would think Valefort or Chambordini could go in and just copy what dedude did for INT (hopefully).

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:05 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
DiceyCZ wrote:
Then I am losing it somewhere, I have lvl 20 so that's 4 spells on each circle +1 for school that's 5, I have 27 INT with items (that's being a tiefling and +2 headgear) and I have Spellcasting prodigy. Yet after shifting I end up with blank LVL1, LVL5 and LVL9 slot which is exactly the difference between 27 and 29 INT.

If it's not spellcasting prodigy, maybe the racial bonus INT and Gear bonus INT stated on polyspellfix doesn't stack?


@Flame_of_Anor... Is this the same issue with Aasimar Sorcs? Dedude said he changed something so the gear bonus and racial bonus would stack, but maybe he only changed for INT and not for CHA? If it is something quick and simple I would think Valefort or Chambordini could go in and just copy what dedude did for INT (hopefully).


I'm not sure if it's the same underlying bugs but outcome-wise, it looks similar (losing 1 of levels 1, 5 and 9 spells-per-day with each shift). For my toon, it's +3 Cha gear, +2 racial bonus, +2 dragon disciple bonus, and Spellcasting Prodigy.

I do hope as well it's something as simple as copying over the Int fix to Cha.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:07 am 
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I bet it's dragon disciple bonus. Being a new PRC it would have been easy to forget about that bonus.

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:22 am 
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You're getting my hopes up, but fingers crossed! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Polymorph/shapechange bugs
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:51 am 
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Polymorph or Shapechange still eats up spell slots. Here's the character specific info so you can try and replicate it:

Aasimar Shaman
15 Wisdom with a +4 amulet (gem of glitterpath) And at the time of casting I had Owl's Insight on me, bringing wisdom total to 27.
31 Charisma with a +3 ring (if it matters at all, I don't suppose it would.)

Only bonus slot items I have on is one for a level 2 sorcerer spell which I don't think it matters, since I don't have sorcerer spellcasting at all.

On shapeshift I lose:
1x 1st level spell
1x 5th level spell
1x 9th level spell

There may be 6th level spells lost as well, but while testing I had no more 6th level spells to cast for the day, so I'm not sure about those.

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