Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

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Syracuse
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Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by Syracuse »

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=72&p=665971#p665971

Sorry for taking this directly to the rulings discussion forum, however waiting for each post of mine to be okay'ed is rather frustrating at times. So, I've elected to carry the discussion portion to here.

I would like to say I get where the DM team is coming from when they declare polymorphed druids in elemental shape to be incapable of communication vocal in all forms save for elemental languages fitting said elemental type, but I don't. Here's why.

For one, the monster manual holds absolutely no stipulations regarding their understand and means of communication other than 'rarely does so'. These are complex creatures at a intelligence of 4, which is by the rule book above that of animal intelligence, and capable of complex thought, that speak languages that are shared by things which are not elementals.

The arguments given in favor of this ruling don't seem to be based upon any source material, but rather on personal opinions of how things 'should' work. Again, while I applaud that the matter was thoroughly discussed, it seems a attempt to establish reasoning behind a otherwise completely unreasonable being has steered the conversation astray. These are not 'reasonable' creatures. There physiology states more than they shouldn't be capable of communication - it states they outright shouldn't exist, and yet here they are. If these are languages that can only be conveyed via noises that a elemental could produce, then there's absolutely no reason what so ever that humans, elves, so forth, could also share this language.

To compound this, these languages have alphabets assigned to them. Reference here; http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm. If I wanted to, I could write a book utilizing the ignan language, albeit with the use of draconic runes. I can give a compelling lecture, I could write a poem, I could read a dire warning on a sign post in the middle of the city of brass that doesn't say 'burn burn, ignite, more burn noises'. Can a elemental do this? Well, arguably. They're not very smart at 4 intelligence, and they certainly don't concern themselves with things like arts, or history. But the fact remains that they speak, and understand, a language capable of doing these things.
Quote:
Elemental form: Elementals can speak their Elemental language if known to the caster (Ignan, Aquan, Earthen, windyblowblowy).


To add to this, Elementals are incapable of speaking Common, or any other language besides the one representing their element. As a pure embodiment of earth/fire/air/water/heart/etc. an elemental lacks the magical ability or physiology to communicate in any language other than the one representing its element, barring certain outside influences (of which polymorphing into an elemental is not one of them).
Is there any resource material o support this? As far as I can tell, this is a opinion, not a fact. While it's reasonable (very reasonable, I will give), it's a reasonable answer to a unreasonable creature. If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected with citation. But otherwise, we're basing this ruling off of nothing more than personal opinion.
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Boddynock
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by Boddynock »

I sort of agree with the above, especially when you consider that polymorphed elementals aren't normal, they are elementals with a human/elven/gnomish (etc) mind and intelligence.

If a form can SPEAK a language, any language at all, it implies that the physical form is capable of vocalizations (By speak I do not mean non-verbal or empathetic communications). It is not hard to imagine with the ability to create sound and a human level mind on could recreate sounds that are analogous enough to the imitated speech to be understandable. Imagine someone speaking a second language with a thick accent for example.

So while I am curious about why someone requested a ruling on this, I am even more curious about what the justification was on why creatures capable of speech cannot speak any language the creature knows. What supports this conclusion?
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Tsidkenu
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

What's the intelligence score of an elemental prince, and can they talk? Same creature type, after all. This makes Boddy's comparison rather significant. When a druid takes on elemental form, it is in body only. Not mind.
kellendril
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by kellendril »

My take on this, from a player perspective and not a forum mod perspective:

Humans can speak. Humans cannot speak all human languages fluently simply because they can speak. If a PC uses a language slot on a given language, then sure, if the form they use can speak at all, they should be able to make it happen.

If, on the other hand, the PC cannot speak that language before the shift, then in my opinion, they should not be able to speak as that form.
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metaquad4
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by metaquad4 »

So far as I have read, source material can back up that Wildshaped/Polymorphed creatures can speak. The only exception to this, is animal form. If one reads the text in the SRD/Manual, animal form explicitly says that the wildshaped druid is limited to the sounds that the animal could make. None of the other wildshapes state this, so its pretty safe to assume that plant/elemental/dragon/magical beast shapes can speak.
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Syracuse
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by Syracuse »

The ruling itself is based on flawed logic, and is essentially reducing elemental languages into 'elemental empathy'.

Facts are facts. Their language is a language, not balls of fire emoting through crackle and pop noises. They speak a language, ergo, they speak. To state otherwise requires further positing that these languages are not languages.
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DM Echo
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by DM Echo »

Syracuse wrote:The ruling itself is based on flawed logic, and is essentially reducing elemental languages into 'elemental empathy'.

Facts are facts. Their language is a language, not balls of fire emoting through crackle and pop noises. They speak a language, ergo, they speak. To state otherwise requires further positing that these languages are not languages.
Actually.. Earth elementals are capable of int scores as high as humans and still they only speak their elemental language, Terrian.. Which sounds like echos in a deep tunnel, rumble of an earthquake, or grinding plates of stone.. Not like the sounds made by human vocal cords.. And when fire elementals speak it does sound like the crackle and hiss of a great fire.. Again.. I highly doubt you can make anything that sounds like a human language out of the crackle and hisses of fire..

And no that has nothing to do with any "elemental empathy". They are just capable of speaking in the language of their elemental type with the tools they have to speak with.. Those tools do not allow them to speak common.

As Ditto said, D&D leaves a lot of things open ended and gives the DMs the unfortunate task of making rulings on what this or that means.. This was a ruling that was decided upon and accepted by the team. I am sorry if it is not one you like, but it is the decision we made.
Syracuse
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by Syracuse »

And yet it has been demonstrated that it's incorrect. Those sounds are not so literal as to be impossible to reproduce into literature and by the human tongue. What it sounds like is up to interpretation. What it is, a spoken language, is not.

D&D isn't that ambiguous, either. It simply doesn't explicitly state that they can't. The absence of 'they can speak' is irrelevant when you dissect what these languages are. The only thing being interpreted is fallacious, as you then must justify why human tongue can share this language.

Plenty of examples, and logic, has been given as to why this ruling makes no sense, including citing the material itself. Nothing has been set forth that is concrete to support it.

Heck, why can liches talk while we're at it? Most of them have no lips, dried up tongues, and sometimes completely vacant rib cages.

I can even give an example of a creature that could theoretically learn common, has a language and high int score, and yet can't ever speak it due to physical limitations. The thri kreen entry explicitly states it's mannerisms when forced to speak with things that aren't other thri kreeb.

And please. Let's not set a unfounded limitation on elmentals. The assumption that they would be hard pressed to imitate human speech with the pops and crackles of fire requires we assume they can't speak, which is still a unfounded accusation against them.
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Boddynock
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by Boddynock »

And let's not forget that their spoken tongue is reproducible by humans, and while there are several species of bird capable of mimicking just about any sound they hear, a human can't make a convincing "echos in a deep tunnel, rumble of an earthquake, or grinding plates of stone...the crackle and hiss of a great fire..." This ruling makes no sense from a logical standpoint AND has nothing in the sourcebooks to back it up.

Not only would I argue that this ruling is incorrect, and ask it to be revisited, I would suggest it wasn't open to interpretation in the first place. Elementals CAN speak, and there is nothing to say they cannot speak any language they know. Other entries in the Monster Manual are very explicit in the limitations a creature has in speech. This ruling assumes that the lack of one in he case of elementals was an oversight, and then comes down on what would be the side of logic if we weren't talking about magical beings. Real world "they don't have vocal cords" logic does not apply here.

Why assume that the entry for elementals was missing something about their speech, did they make it clear in later editions that they can only speak elemental? At least then the assumption that it is an oversight would hold some water.
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DM Ditto
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by DM Ditto »

The team can give you as many reasons to impose the ruling as you can give us reasons not to. In the end, when there is no definite lore source to conclude one way or another on a certain scenario, then it is up to DM fiat to decide what it would be in the case.

In a world of magic where anything is possible for arbitrary reasons, on the flip side things can be impossible to have in that same world for reasons just as arbitrary.* Whether the chosen stance would "make sense" or not does not matter, because a reason as simple as "magic" would be as valid as Echo's explanation.

Logic, or the interaction of it in a magical world, goes both ways.


*(Alternatively, this can be seen as an in-universe safety net to explain setting/sourcebook inconsistencies and DM fiat. :lol: )
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metaquad4
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by metaquad4 »

Personally, I'd like to hear some of those many reasons for a seemingly arbitrary ruling. Let things be seen from the DM's point of view and all.

I'm inclined to agree with Boddy on that last point. Creatures that are limited are clearly stated to be limited. Creatures that are not limited are not stated to be limited. Elementals (and indeed, Treants) are not limited and fall into the latter category.

For treants, this ruling was particularly silly too as they can naturally speak common, sylvan, and a "smattering of other languages".

Elementals have no such statement, where they are unable to learn common/other languages. They are inhibited by their int scores, of course. I could see from the DM's point of view with regard to this one, however. Since wildshape states that:

"A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)"

and following, elemental wildshape states that:

"In addition to the normal effects of wild shape..."

As for this case, the treant ruling is completely arbitrary and silly (putting it mildly for the sake of skins) as treants can naturally speak common. You don't even need to purchase/otherwise obtain a source book to find this out, its up on the free source reference document(s).

I'd be wary of arbitrary rules, for any position that creates rules. If you don't have a reason/can't find a -good- reason for a rule, it absolutely does not belong. And if you can't adequately explain it to the people it effects, all you do is create distrust with regards to your own capacity to perform your duty (not to mention potential animosity or hostility, depending on the severity of the impact). That in turn can poison a server, when players can't or don't trust their DMs to do their job. Its not a pleasant road and has destroyed servers in the past (for a longstanding server example see Dalelands).

There haven't been many of these (arbitrary/not source supported/silly) kinds of rulings, so, I'd urge the DMs to snuff this puppy in its crib before it bites anyone. Keep it going with the reasonable, lore supported, and/or necessary rulings. Don't bog the server down with arbitrary or unneeded rules.
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DM Echo
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by DM Echo »

Syracuse wrote:And yet it has been demonstrated that it's incorrect. Those sounds are not so literal as to be impossible to reproduce into literature and by the human tongue. What it sounds like is up to interpretation. What it is, a spoken language, is not.

D&D isn't that ambiguous, either. It simply doesn't explicitly state that they can't. The absence of 'they can speak' is irrelevant when you dissect what these languages are. The only thing being interpreted is fallacious, as you then must justify why human tongue can share this language.

Plenty of examples, and logic, has been given as to why this ruling makes no sense, including citing the material itself. Nothing has been set forth that is concrete to support it.

Heck, why can liches talk while we're at it? Most of them have no lips, dried up tongues, and sometimes completely vacant rib cages.

I can even give an example of a creature that could theoretically learn common, has a language and high int score, and yet can't ever speak it due to physical limitations. The thri kreen entry explicitly states it's mannerisms when forced to speak with things that aren't other thri kreeb.

And please. Let's not set a unfounded limitation on elmentals. The assumption that they would be hard pressed to imitate human speech with the pops and crackles of fire requires we assume they can't speak, which is still a unfounded accusation against them.
All of that is simple enough to explain.. Humans with their wide variety of vocal sounds can mimic the sounds of elementals close enough to speak these languages, but the sounds these elementals make do not have the range capable of speaking common.. Human languages are developed with human vocal cords in mind after all. Just like a dog trying to say "I Love you".. It is actually barely understandable that the animal is trying to say I love you.. If you weren't given the context.. most people might not even realize that is what the animal was saying. Human language has a wide variety of tones and noises in it because our vocal cords and mouths are capable of a wide variety of sounds. We decided elementals do not have this capacity.

Again repeating over and over..D&D left this decision up to us. This is the one we made.

You can't shift the burden of proof upon us. Show us where elementals can speak common, then perhaps that will change the discussion. Currently though all arguments made for either side are arguments from ignorance. There is no proof that elementals can or can not speak common, but still a ruling had to be made. That ruling was made because the weight of evidence against elementals speaking common was heavier than the evidence for it.
Elementals have no such statement, where they are unable to learn common/other languages. They are inhibited by their int scores, of course.
Again.. Elementals are not limited by their INT score. Some elementals have an INT high enough to speak common if they were capable of speaking it. Some creatures have INTs lower or as low as elementals and still speak common.
Boddynock
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by Boddynock »

DM Echo wrote:You can't shift the burden of proof upon us.
That's not quite how burden of proof works mate. The burden of proof actually does lie on the claimant. Scientists don't get to say whatever they want and expect it to be accepted as fact until someone proves them wrong. You have to prove yourself right first.

So when you say we can' shift the burden of proof on you, well, we didn't. We just want the proof that was used to reach this decision, since the burden of proof doesn't lie with us, but with you.

Maybe the logic used makes sense, but all we have seen as a reason so far is "DM fiat" which doesn't hold much water. DMs are playing the same game as us, they just play a different role (notice I didn't say a higher role). And at the tabletop a DM who makes too much liberty with the DM fiat thing will soon be DMing to an empty table (Which I believe is something Metaquad alluded to as well).

And I already touched on the claim that humans can mimic elemental language while elementals cannot. It's hard to speak for what the elemental can do, but you link me even five seconds worth of youtube vids of a human being sounding (convincingly) like a crackling flame or the rumble of the earth shifting and I will pay the servers bills for the next ten years. How on earth was the conclusion reached that humans can get close enough when we know for a fact they can't, but the magical beings that could quite possibly just produce sound via thought can't mimic human sounds?


Edit: BTW, anyone having issues with this ruling having suddenly changed they way they RP their characters can just write what they want to say. No reason an elemental shouldn't be able to rearrange it's body. Water elementals using bubbles to spell out words and what not.
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Syracuse
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by Syracuse »

Look, I can tell that I'm being perceived as hostile, but I really am not trying to be such.

This section of the forums exists specifically for this reason, to discuss the rules of the server in plain view, where the community can take part. I'm not trying to utilize it to dog pile, or bully the dm team. Only use it for what it is here for. If your intent is to come in and claim that we are ignorant of how the game works, I would ask a more level headed dm enter the conversation.

That said, I really don't understand why the team is being so stubborn on this. It's pretty rare that general public consensus reaches the conclusion that a ruling is in error and the team can't even come up with a single point to defend their ruling, and will not reopen the discussion. Why this particular matter?

I've seen the term 'slippery slope' used around here so often, it makes my eyes roll, and yet we actually are regarding a slippery slope ruling.

There's nothing that explicitly states orcs can look up. Should the dm team, therefore, rule that they can't just because the monster manual doesn't list a full diagram of their range of motion?

Please reconsider going down this route. You're perceiving 'gaps' in things that are functioning just as intended now. There's no information whatsoever that supports your claims. I am asking that you at least realize this, as has been blatantly stated, and consider that your ruling is in error, and needs to be redacted as it unfairly limits druids whom still play here.

You are not defending good roleplay when the reasoning is 'because I said so'. In this, you only defend your station as unquestionable, and without need to prove your side of the argument
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kleomenes
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Re: Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

Unread post by kleomenes »

Syracuse wrote:It's pretty rare that general public consensus reaches the conclusion that a ruling is in error
I don't play a druid or indeed any character that can shift into an elemental so I have not felt the urge to comment in this thread as I do not see it as a burning issue.

I do consider that five posters, three of whom have posted multiple times, are not properly categorised as a general public consensus. Maybe there is one, but I almost resent silence from players like me being categorised as such.

I mean if I had to err one way I would probably say:
- Restrictions and limitations breed interaction and thus RP, from my perspective.
- D&D rules are plenty lax and open to interpretation, and I like it when they are interpreted to set up things to be RPed over.
- The times I have had to RP with shapechangers who have RPed not being able to speak common have been far more fun to me than the times they have just carried on chatting like using such magic is merely cosmetic.

But opinions are subjective and like I say, its not a big issue for me, personally.
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