Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

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Empoweredfan
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Re: DM approval?

Unread post by Empoweredfan »

How about this then. The knoweledge of Eilistraee is not well known on the surface. Regardless of any shrine, holy place, or lore books. Your average person doesn't see any difference between a follower of Eilistraee, Vhaeraun or Loth. And the reason why they are not treated differently, is because players that doesn't know the difference, or have characters that doesn't know the difference, should not be punished by having their character react as they would or should.

As the rules stand, there is very little stopping a drow from being on the surface. But without DM permission, they are not allowed to settle. And even when settled, they are still subject to the same rules as other drow unless stated otherwise. This doesn't stop people from playing Eilistraeeans or Vhaeraunites at all. It just stops those players from ruining the immersion for others that reacts as the character would upon seeing drow.

And before more arguing happens. Remember that new rules will almost always be a response to something that have already happened. It is a reaction to something. Not a spontaneous thing that is put in place without a reason behind it.
Nawiel: Stubborn woodpecker from the deep.
- "Responsibility is a curse, importance, an illusion."


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Storm Munin
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Re: DM approval?

Unread post by Storm Munin »

Steve has the right of it.


Concerning Eilistraee and surface:
As for settlements and shrines devoted to Eilistraee I have so far failed to take note of any true settlement beyond the Promenade (that arguably are not defacto a surface settlement, as well as not being settled at this point in time anyway).

Pretty much all the official lore ive read touching to Eilistraeean settlements and shrines take the care to speak of desolate places where the faithful on rare occasion can be found.
Roving bands of Eilistraeean and Vhaerunites can be encountered within the realms of Cormanthor.
This, if vaguely, telling us whatever Eilistraeean there are on the surface are nomadic of nature.

I have yet to find a surfaceside good drow village or town like say Beregost anywhere in official sources or novels until a plausible shows up in the case of Rhymanthiin/Faer'tel'miir being reclaimed in DR 1415.
The few mentions of drow there however only refer to already altered Miyeritari (dark elves), thanks Q'arlind Melarn.
The Hidden City of Hope, indeed.

I for one wonder why there are almost no mention of Rhymanthiin after the initial novel, drow sells after all.


Feel free to educate me otherwise, my searches for Eilistraeean lore over the years may have missed something.


If anyone has noted any widely (almost) accepted drow on the surface beyond:
The Drizzit (Silver Marches, Icewind Dale to Neverwinter)
Tosun Armgo (Silver Marches)
(Did not add Liriel Baenre since she hides behind a Hathran mask)

kindly let me know in a PM.
"Drojal zhah obdoluth dorb'd streeak, Lueth dro zhah zhaunau dorb'd ogglin."
"Existence is empty without chaos, Life is boring without enemies." So sayeth Lady Lolth, Queen of Chaos.

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Vekin
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Re: DM approval?

Unread post by Vekin »

Direct quote from Demi-human deities, a 2nd edition source book which would be the right timescale for the server?
"Above ground temples of Eilistraee are known to exist in the
Moonwood north of the village of Quaervarr and at the northern
end of the Velarwood in Harrowdale. The Mouth of Song, as
the former temple is known, is located in a cavemouth beneath
a treeless hill-atop which the dark elven priests and a few halfelven
and elven faithful from Silverymoon dance in a great ring
on moonlit nights-a day's travel north of Quaervarr. The
Shadowtop Glade, as the latter temple is known, is located in a
series of caves that line both sides of a steep-sided overgrown
gully dominated by a grove of towering shadowtop trees. Dark
elven priests of the temple armed with enchanted silver swords
and moon-worshiping lycanthropes from the nearby Howling
Hill join together to conduct sacred hunts to Eilistraee and
Selune when the moon is full. Smaller shrines of the Dark
Maiden have been spotted in the Misty Forest, the High Forest
(where the Dark Ladies are led by Ysolde Veladorn, daughter of
Qilue), the Forest of Shadows, the Lake Sember region, the
Grey Forest, the Forest of Lethyr, the Yuirwood, and the
Chondalwood. Hidden temples of Eilistraee may exist in the
hearts of such forests as well. Temples of the Dark Maiden are
conspicuously absent on Evermeet, the Green Isle, despite the
recent rapprochement engendered by the dark elven ambassador,
Lady Karsel'lyn Lylyl-Lytherraias."
Storm Munin
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Re: DM approval?

Unread post by Storm Munin »

Exactly, nowhere in there are any permanent settlement mentioned.
"Drojal zhah obdoluth dorb'd streeak, Lueth dro zhah zhaunau dorb'd ogglin."
"Existence is empty without chaos, Life is boring without enemies." So sayeth Lady Lolth, Queen of Chaos.

PC: Natalya, wandering enchantress.
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Ithilan
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Re: DM approval?

Unread post by Ithilan »

The way I see it, the surface has always been appealing, to most drows.

Sure there are plenty of players who roll up an UD character (most I would assume in truth) due to the very different RP that is usually spawned by the hostile setting. This is great, but the rift between the UD and the surface has been exsistant since forever, a huge population difference in PC's that subtly gravitates players towards the surface, with their UD characters or eventually forsaking the UD to play top side.

Back in 2009 when the Mori'Hyanda guild was made, it was the same problem and some of us were silly enough to begin raiding the surface, was it justified ICly? Hardly, because we had no DMs doing anything in the UD back then and our plots were only really player initiated and supported. That created plenty of issues OOCly and IC.

I actually quit the server back then because I was so tired of this trend, when I came back I rolled up a paladin and havent been to the UD since.

Ive met plenty of drows on the surface over the years and I cant say one stood out more than other or gave any particular reason not to react with hostility, on their part. Rather it is the eyes of the "beholder" or character if you will, that usually dictates the reaction. I currently play a Selunite that ive spend months on end to shape a background story for and have so much material written still I am afraid to post it. Part of this is stories revolving around the Mouth of Song in the Moonwood, which to my character, naturally is a sacred place and the placid calm that Selune regards the world and its inhabitants with (untill slighted) gives me a basis for not unsheathing my blade against every drow I meet.

Eilistraee or Vhaerun, it doesnt matter to 999 out of a 1000 surfacers, or more.. in a world where prejudice is healthy, due to the numerous dangers outside your door, I think our real life perspectives of tolerance and fair treatment is overshadowing the very frightened and hostile reactions that all drow invoke in surfacers.

Ask yourself this, what monsters you normally encounter would stay your hand ICly? Are you not attacking the DM controlled Kobold NPC because it is not hostile? Then you are making an OOC decision, not ICly.. same applies to encounters with players as I see it. And luckily the KoS rules for drows do not incur punishment, because from the perspective of your character, they are likely set to hostile and hesitation in dealing with a foe so powerful and cunning can have dire consequences, silver tongued elves with physical superiority, natural spell resistances and affinity for invoking spells? Id hit first, ask later in most cases.

That is not mistreating the players of the drows, disregarding their RP investment or generally speaking neglecting the established lore people reffer to in this topic, it is the opposite as I see it, fully justified and how it should be. Even in the Silver Marches, the few drows that Lady Alustriel collaborates with are avoiding the average surfacer, because they know what reaction they trigger.. and lets not consider Drizzt in this please, the guy is super overrated and a fan favorite that has achieved what noone else ever will. We are not supposed to be even remotely on par with the many fabled NPCs of the official lore.
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cosmic ray
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Re: DM approval?

Unread post by cosmic ray »

Deathgrowl wrote:
cosmic ray wrote:I've always found it weird to need Dm consent for the personal decisions of one's own character. Dms are supposed to make the world alive, not play my character for me.
Usually it is done to protect the setting from immersion breaking stuff. Imagine if someone decided they wanted to play a character from the Harry Potter universe that just randomly dropped into the Forgotten Realms Setting. Yeah, extreme example, but it makes the point: Protect the immersion of the setting.

Not saying it is the best way to do it, but it probably is the easiest way to do it.
An in-setting character choosing where to go within the setting is light-years away from someone using elements from outside the setting.

Are we comparing a human who decides to go and stay in Sshamath (or really anywhere else at his own risk) to someone who wants to bring jedi or Harry Potter into the Forgotten Realms?
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grymhild
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Re: Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

Unread post by grymhild »

FYI, I renamed the thread.

even though I've not really played in the last month or so, I've been watching this thread and reading other people's impressions and opinions.

there's been several times I wanted to say something, but I then thought maybe it would be a good idea for me to just listen, REALLY try to listen (errr -read-, lol, I hope you know what I mean)

so that's what I've been doing, trying to understand what other people think about this, and trying to keep an open mind.

there are some ideas that I would like to share, and I hope that I can explain them in a way that makes sense.

so that even if you don't agree or like with my ideas, that hopefully there aren't too many misunderstandings.

okay, so this is going to take me a while to write, and hopefully I can get it done in the next week or so.

until then, please keep talking about your ideas and I'll keep listening... err... reading :-)

~Grym
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lilani
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Re: Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

Unread post by lilani »

I can't help but find it contradictory that we're fine with demon / devil blooded tierlings running around, orc paladins in pink armour and mages summoning creatures from the outer planes, yet the minute a black skinned elf shows up their is a whole hoo-har made about the subject & everyone starts clambering for their lore books.

I think what I find unnecessary is that we need any OOC rules about this subject. There's a post on this forum about mutual respect & sometimes it's worth taking a deep breath and reminding yourself that we're all here to have fun. If someone wants to play an Eilestraen on the surface, it would be best to let them. No-one is forced to RP with them & as a player they deserve the same respect as anyone else. If they as a player cause drama then they as a player should be treated the same as anyone else.

Players should be left to choose for themselves whether they want to trust a drow, just like they can decide whether to trust a thayan etc. If someone wants to play a dritzz clone, so what? Npcs are already coded not to like them (i.e no quests) & they can't easily get into many towns. However, if there is some human barbarian willling to strike up an unlikely friendship, why is that a big deal? If you're a human who doesn't want anything to do with a drow, then that's also a player choice.
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V'rass
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Re: Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

Unread post by V'rass »

I agree fully.
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cosmic ray
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Re: Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

Unread post by cosmic ray »

Me too. Sometimes real lore-breaking stuff is more easily tolerated than certain bits of actual lore that is less popular among some players.
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grymhild
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Re: Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

Unread post by grymhild »

I've had eight doctors appointments in the past six days and am still feeling run down, so I still haven't had the energy to write down all of my ideas yet. Though hopefully things will get better soon.

Until then I leave you with this quote,

"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason."
~Thomas Paine, 1776

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Empoweredfan
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Re: Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

Unread post by Empoweredfan »

lilani wrote:I can't help but find it contradictory that we're fine with demon / devil blooded tierlings running around, orc paladins in pink armour and mages summoning creatures from the outer planes, yet the minute a black skinned elf shows up their is a whole hoo-har made about the subject & everyone starts clambering for their lore books.

I think what I find unnecessary is that we need any OOC rules about this subject. There's a post on this forum about mutual respect & sometimes it's worth taking a deep breath and reminding yourself that we're all here to have fun. If someone wants to play an Eilestraen on the surface, it would be best to let them. No-one is forced to RP with them & as a player they deserve the same respect as anyone else. If they as a player cause drama then they as a player should be treated the same as anyone else.

Players should be left to choose for themselves whether they want to trust a drow, just like they can decide whether to trust a thayan etc. If someone wants to play a dritzz clone, so what? Npcs are already coded not to like them (i.e no quests) & they can't easily get into many towns. However, if there is some human barbarian willling to strike up an unlikely friendship, why is that a big deal? If you're a human who doesn't want anything to do with a drow, then that's also a player choice.
You do realize that with the rules that are in place, there is nothing stopping any player from applying to the DM team about playing a drow on the surface. Nothing at all. (they just have to retreat into the upperdark, if they don't want to live in S'shamath)

As for your other points, I see nothing in there that the rules would stop. No one on the DM team dictates how you should react to any given situation. No one tells you what to do, how to do it, except when metagaming happen or is about to. So, again. If you want to play a drow on the surface. Apply to do so. I honestly cannot see the problem. Just don't blame surface characters from reacting in the way that they do. And have done.
cosmic ray wrote:Me too. Sometimes real lore-breaking stuff is more easily tolerated than certain bits of actual lore that is less popular among some players.
This goes both ways. As what might be unpopular for some, will be preferable for others. What you might find frustrating, others will like. What you want, might be for others, a deal breaker. Mutual respect. It goes both ways.

I am sorry if this looks a bit pointed, but all I can see here in this thread, is a lot of discussion over nothing. Please read the rules in question, and try to remember the empty UD that once was, when a group of surface characters raided the temple of lolth inside the city of Sshamath. Many UD players quit outright after that. The same could happen on the surface.

If playing a surface living drow is so important, then there are other servers that offers this option, I am sure. But there is nothing but a good roleplay reason stopping your drow from visiting the surface here.
Nawiel: Stubborn woodpecker from the deep.
- "Responsibility is a curse, importance, an illusion."


Deleniel Vanaer: Wood Elven Sor. . . cook.

If you put your foot in your mouth. . . don't start walking. . .
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Lockonnow
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Re: Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

Unread post by Lockonnow »

how many Areas is tehre any Ud how many areas is there on surface
lilani
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Re: Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

Unread post by lilani »

Whether there is a good RP reason for or against a character from going to the surface or into the underdark is very much an IC decision much like someone travelling to the outer planes or to dark hold.

It's the whole OOC rules that is entirely unnecessary, they should be the same as interacting with any other evil player - i.e. Based on respect and maturity.

As for the issue with the Llolth temple attack I'm sorry to hear about that. I certainly can't speak for anyone as I wasn't a player at that time but attacks on a major npc stronghold are an obvious example of a scenario that will cause huge issues on a OOC level because it requires a huge amount of maturity for everyone present.

I.e that's clearly a case of a DM getting it very wrong or players taking things into their own hands at a level they never should.
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Empoweredfan
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Re: Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

Unread post by Empoweredfan »

Hence why there are now rules. In a perfect world, you'd be right. But since we are not in a perfect world, things happen, and if it is bad enough, then rules are made to stop such things from happening again. And that is how rules come to be on our server. If nothing happen, then rules would not be made.

You speak a lot of maturity. So please think of the request as a way to ask the DM's to trust in you to act maturely and with respect for other players when you do travel to the surface.
Nawiel: Stubborn woodpecker from the deep.
- "Responsibility is a curse, importance, an illusion."


Deleniel Vanaer: Wood Elven Sor. . . cook.

If you put your foot in your mouth. . . don't start walking. . .
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