Time to the fix the Half-Orc

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AC81
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by AC81 »

As I said, if playing a half-orc, you're doing it for fun, but than actually something serious.
Hmm ... same could/should be said for everything buddy. Half-orcs may be sub-optimal at many things but that doesn't mean they can't achieve greatness, same as any other race on the server. So yes, they do have variety. I'm not stupid, I see your argument and they aren't valid IMO. You seem to think that all races should be equal mechanically - that was never the intention of the makers of this game. Some races and classes have inherent flaws and weaknesses that you just have to deal with if you're going to roll one up. A half-orc rogue can have just as much impact on this server as a halfling rogue - that's a fact, dispute it all you want. It just comes back to RP hours spent, not mechanics.
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ARHicks00
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

AC81 wrote:
As I said, if playing a half-orc, you're doing it for fun, but than actually something serious.
Hmm ... same could/should be said for everything buddy. Half-orcs may be sub-optimal at many things but that doesn't mean they can't achieve greatness, same as any other race on the server. So yes, they do have variety. I'm not stupid, I see your argument and they aren't valid IMO. You seem to think that all races should be equal mechanically - that was never the intention of the makers of this game. Some races and classes have inherent flaws and weaknesses that you just have to deal with if you're going to roll one up. A half-orc rogue can have just as much impact on this server as a halfling rogue - that's a fact, dispute it all you want. It just comes back to RP hours spent, not mechanics.
1. Everything is same argument doesn't work here as you just contradict your argument in the same sentence you were defending them.

2. You say you see through my argument, but if you had been paying attention then you know what the remaining post exclaims is not my argument at all.

3. One's roleplaying is subjective. An awful roleplayer in your eyes maybe a good roleplay in my eyes.

3. What variety? You didn't post anything. Sure you can mention your half-orc rogue, but what did he do that the tiefling and Halfling couldn't do? Well other than the typical prejudice from other races. (Which tieflings also get)

4. I never said they should be equal else I would be asking for every race to get -2 Charisma and Intelligence so there goes that assumption. :lol: I'm asking for the Half-Orc to get their Intelligence normalized and get a free feat since the Half-elf got the same love. They can keep the -2 Charisma and Favored Class: Barbarian. Again, we can refer to the manual, but it's same manual that encourage you to make up your own rules and the fact you guys tried to give them bonuses shows you aren't quiet following lore.

5. LOL! Once again, it was never my argument and I point out on statement #2, you claim to see my argument, yet my argument has not been about race having advantage over the other, but giving more versatility without being gimped to the Half-Orc race.
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Hawke wrote:Good luck with this. I support some change to HOrcs.

I tried doing that a year ago.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=50183

Please feel free to reference for some ideas.
Too true. I'm not here to make the race overpower, but doing what Port of Shadow successfully did before they went under, which is make the Half-orc a little more viable. Anytime you ask for a slight upgrade, these suggestions are always met with hostility and they tend to accuse you of trolling for speaking your mind with no flames or debunking of the topic. It just a way to hush the topic away.
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metaquad4
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by metaquad4 »

Solution:
Take away the "Blooded" feat and +1 CON.
Give them the "Skilled" feat like other half human-races. (From being part human).
Give them +1 STR, -1 INT, and -1 CHA.
Give them Great Axe Proficiency. (From being part orc)

This would bring them more in line with Half-Elf and Half-Drow, who don't have as much as a malnus or penalty as Half Orc does. Half Orc gains a +2 to one stat and +1 to another, both benefiting its favored class as well as a warrior-esque build. On top of that, they gain a +2 to spot.

Half-Elves and Half-Drow only gain a +1 to a few skills, get an immunity to sleep (which is rarely used, easy to resist, and only nets the attacker a slight advantage), skilled, and a weapon proficiency which is given by most classes and unused by the classes its not given by for the most part (except for eldrich knight, which is better served by taking another class anyway). They gain mostly skills, and marginal benefits at that, where stats would better. Even my changed rendition on half-orc is still more powerful, but at least its a start.

I agree, Half-Orcs need to be fixed and brought into line with Half-Elves and Half-Drow. Currently, they are far more broken in comparison to those two and need fixing.
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Hawke
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by Hawke »

Time for my official presence. Please treat others with respect, and do not make personal attacks towards others. I do not want to, but this thread will be closed and the folks who persist in breaking the rules will be facing punishment.

Please keep it civil, we are a community, and not everything suggested is accepted by all. Pleading your case and trying to influence others to your way of thinking is fine, so long as it is done with a civil tongue.


Also, I just spent the last 30 minutes going through this thread to try to salvage it and not close it down. If your post was modified, and you have issue with it, please let Zanniej know.

Otherwise, understand the trouble that was went through, and keep the flaming down.
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Hawke wrote:Time for my official presence. Please treat others with respect, and do not make personal attacks towards others. I do not want to, but this thread will be closed and the folks who persist in breaking the rules will be facing punishment.

Please keep it civil, we are a community, and not everything suggested is accepted by all. Pleading your case and trying to influence others to your way of thinking is fine, so long as it is done with a civil tongue.

Well do.
metaquad4 wrote:Solution:
Take away the "Blooded" feat and +1 CON.
Give them the "Skilled" feat like other half human-races. (From being part human).
Give them +1 STR, -1 INT, and -1 CHA.
Give them Great Axe Proficiency. (From being part orc)

This would bring them more in line with Half-Elf and Half-Drow, who don't have as much as a malnus or penalty as Half Orc does. Half Orc gains a +2 to one stat and +1 to another, both benefiting its favored class as well as a warrior-esque build. On top of that, they gain a +2 to spot.

Half-Elves and Half-Drow only gain a +1 to a few skills, get an immunity to sleep (which is rarely used, easy to resist, and only nets the attacker a slight advantage), skilled, and a weapon proficiency which is given by most classes and unused by the classes its not given by for the most part (except for eldrich knight, which is better served by taking another class anyway). They gain mostly skills, and marginal benefits at that, where stats would better. Even my changed rendition on half-orc is still more powerful, but at least its a start.

I agree, Half-Orcs need to be fixed and brought into line with Half-Elves and Half-Drow. Currently, they are far more broken in comparison to those two and need fixing.
1. Love the ideas already.

2. Love the quote as I said, I made no personal attacks or tried to troll. People losing their temper is a control issue. All of us want to speak, but not listen. I do my best to listen even if I don't agree with what the other person is saying. That's why a lot of misunderstandings have happened. I even apologizes for said behavior and noted my cynicism/sarcastic/humorous nature, still didn't help.
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thebeasttt
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by thebeasttt »

You can't really compare Half-Orc to Human, almost every race is worse than Human. That said, all the half races could use some tweaking. They seem to only take on the worst aspects of their race. I bet if NWN2 made a half dwarf they would give it +2 poison resist and -2 INT & DEX.

Maybe I'm bias but I really think Gray Orc is much more in need of a fix. A nomad that wanders from cave to cave, who's favored class is somehow Cleric? The race doesn't even make sense and most just RP them as mountain Orc's anyways, as they should :p
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AC81
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by AC81 »

Fair enough. We'll leave it at agree to disagree.
Solution:
Take away the "Blooded" feat and +1 CON.
Give them the "Skilled" feat like other half human-races. (From being part human).
Give them +1 STR, -1 INT, and -1 CHA.
Give them Great Axe Proficiency. (From being part orc)
This suggestion actually makes the half-orc slightly weaker (though still not close to unplayable mind you). I'll post a link to this thread in QC and won't comment further as it serves no purpose.
Last edited by AC81 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AC81
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by AC81 »

thebeasttt wrote:You can't really compare Half-Orc to Human, almost every race is worse than Human. That said, all the half races could use some tweaking. They seem to only take on the worst aspects of their race. I bet if NWN2 made a half dwarf they would give it +2 poison resist and -2 INT & DEX.

Maybe I'm bias but I really think Gray Orc is much more in need of a fix. A nomad that wanders from cave to cave, who's favored class is somehow Cleric? The race doesn't even make sense and most just RP them as mountain Orc's anyways, as they should :p
This IS something I agree with. While we can't do away with grey orcs at this point in the servers history, I think mountain orcs should be implemented. But this is maybe something for another thread?
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ARHicks00
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

thebeasttt wrote:You can't really compare Half-Orc to Human, almost every race is worse than Human. That said, all the half races could use some tweaking. They seem to only take on the worst aspects of their race. I bet if NWN2 made a half dwarf they would give it +2 poison resist and -2 INT & DEX.

Maybe I'm bias but I really think Gray Orc is much more in need of a fix. A nomad that wanders from cave to cave, who's favored class is somehow Cleric? The race doesn't even make sense and most just RP them as mountain Orc's anyways, as they should :p
1. Depends on what classes. Humans are well rounded, but not the best. Elves are better at being Rangers and Rogue than humans along with Halflings. Dwarves are better at being at Fighters and Gold dwarves are better at being Paladins. Humans and Elves are pretty even as Paladins since both are likely to land 12 Constitution, though Elves get a slight edge with the immunity to enchantment. Halflings also even with Elven and Human and they can also become EDM paladins despite a strength disadvantage. (Though they can only use shortswords without monkey grip to help them use a longsword) I could keep going, but that would redundant as you would find a lot of race are either even or can do better humans in certain aspect, but those races end up specializing as a result of it whereas humans do not. (Their biggest advantage) The only race that humans are better than are a non-customized half-elf and a half-orc.

2. Half-breed take whatever aspect you wish to have them. A half-dwarf would get the same benefits as their parents, but the half dwarf would probably get +1 spells, poison, and some skill boost, but like a half nothing else.

3. I guess they wanted a race that favored the cleric when really they would favored the shaman based on their lifestyle.
AC81 wrote:Fair enough. We'll leave it at agree to disagree.
Solution:
Take away the "Blooded" feat and +1 CON.
Give them the "Skilled" feat like other half human-races. (From being part human).
Give them +1 STR, -1 INT, and -1 CHA.
Give them Great Axe Proficiency. (From being part orc)
This suggestion actually makes the half-orc slightly weaker (though still not close to unplayable mind you). I'll post a link to this thread in QC and won't comment further as it serves no purpose.
That or +2 strength and -2 Charisma.
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thebeasttt
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by thebeasttt »

ARHicks00 wrote: 1. Depends on what classes. Humans are well rounded, but not the best. Elves are better at being Rangers and Rogue than humans along with Halflings. Dwarves are better at being at Fighters and Gold dwarves are better at being Paladins. Humans and Elves are pretty even as Paladins since both are likely to land 12 Constitution, though Elves get a slight edge with the immunity to enchantment. Halflings also even with Elven and Human and they can also become EDM paladins despite a strength disadvantage. (Though they can only use shortswords without monkey grip to help them use a longsword) I could keep going, but that would redundant as you would find a lot of race are either even or can do better humans in certain aspect, but those races end up specializing as a result of it whereas humans do not. (Their biggest advantage) The only race that humans are better than are a non-customized half-elf and a half-orc.
Almost none of your examples are accurate. The reason Human's are so powerful is because the vast majority of builds are either feat starved or skill starved. Dwarf fighter? Skill starved. Elf rogue? Feat starved. Human addresses both of these issues, on top of the underrated advantage of having no preferred class. This opens up a plethora of builds, all at the cost of 0 ECL.

Halflings are great but are also pigeonholed into just a few classes. Even for a highly specialized build, Humans provide a feat and skills that every other race does not. I'm not sure why you made so many paladin examples but Aasimar dominate this department anyways and is one of the few races on par with Human. That's not to say Human's are always the best but there's a reason they make up 50% of the server.
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Mechanically half orcs are great for the server
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by Stonebar »

3. I guess they wanted a race that favored the cleric when really they would favored the shaman based on their lifestyle.
Although gray orcs are comfortable with the savage life of the barbarian, they tend to be calmer and more collected than northern orcs, focusing their rage and hatred inward. This allows them to excel as clerics of the warlike orc deities.
A Cleric is often called a shaman in many cases. But I dislike strongly that they are called Grey Orc as we are so far from their lands (they were added for the Rashemen expansion, an area they live near). I would like them to be counted as Mountain orc or the despised Black Orc that have ravaged the heartland the last few years. This makes far more sense. But that's another conversation.
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by AlfarinIcebreaker »

I think that Half Orcs are OK (especially with new additions to Barbarian class), just that maybe we should replace Blooded feat with something more useful - say Improved Initiative perhaps. That works fine in a RP sense and opens up path to Epic Charge if that is your thing. Blooded does nothing.
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by Theodore01 »

AlfarinIcebreaker wrote:I think that Half Orcs are OK (especially with new additions to Barbarian class), just that maybe we should replace Blooded feat with something more useful - say Improved Initiative perhaps. That works fine in a RP sense and opens up path to Epic Charge if that is your thing. Blooded does nothing.
I fully agree.
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