Time to the fix the Half-Orc

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Stonebar
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by Stonebar »

The attribute advantages and disadvantages have strong genetic and/or Forgotten realm world reality backing (not counting game mechanics). Also on par with "most" races.

I believe your strongest point is about the blooded feat. It's neither of the above. That said, many would be upset if it was suddenly taken away. Perhaps a limited selection of feats to pick from at creation could be a solution?

On a side note: One of the characters I played the most is a Shield Dwarf Bard, and that -2 Cha did not exclude me, or make me week. It's the cost of being counter to the norm for your species. In fact look at it this way, if you wanted 18 con, that +1 con would save you 3 points, that you could then add to your Int if you wished negating the issue.
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ARHicks00
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Stonebar wrote:The attribute advantages and disadvantages have strong genetic and/or Forgotten realm world reality backing (not counting game mechanics). Also on par with "most" races.

I believe your strongest point is about the blooded feat. It's neither of the above. That said, many would be upset if it was suddenly taken away. Perhaps a limited selection of feats to pick from at creation could be a solution?

On a side note: One of the characters I played the most is a Shield Dwarf Bard, and that -2 Cha did not exclude me, or make me week. It's the cost of being counter to the norm for your species. In fact look at it this way, if you wanted 18 con, that +1 con would save you 3 points, that you could then add to your Int if you wished negating the issue.
1. Having read the DM manual and DM my own game, you don't have to go with the book example. In fact the +1 to Constitution and Blooded Feat is proof you guys diverge from the book so trying to use the DM manual as a bible to how the game should be played is no go considering in the same book, it also encourages you to wing it in your rules and RP. :lol:

2. It's bugged so it's not even in their status. I know this because I tried making a Half-orc paladin today and the blood feat was not added. I even checked my characters feats and it wasn't there. I erased and create three different paladins and got the same result. But as I said, blood is a useless feats for an half-orc since it emphasis giving a skill raise to spot when Orcs play a class that useless Listen. +1 to Constitution is also useless it's just one extra point to nothing. No matter how I reassert my extra +1 point, you couldn't put anywhere it would be useful on attribute chart. So you wouldn't be missing much if they removed both.

3. That's because a bard have a 16/+3 limit to achieve maximum spellcasting. Hell, I played a tiefling bard that well because of all the extra attribute one point lying around after you make your bard. :lol: I mean my tiefling bard would either have a crap load of dexterity, strength, or intelligence while landing a 12 to 13 charisma. You can make an half-orc paladin with EDM, but he would be short a lot a few feats and skills, but it's doable. However, when compared to other classes, EVEN ONES WHO DON'T SPECIALIZE IN BARD, they can do it way better and still have room for versatility. This is the half-orcs problem. Trying to make a version of a character that would other wise be built better, just force you to gimp yourself and leads to a less stellar vision of [insert race] who could have done it better.

4. Tried to add intelligence to Orc, but thanks to that -2, you fits on a 12 to 13 with +1 point to spare to nothing. The +1 Constitution is just useless. :lol:
Last edited by ARHicks00 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
chad878262
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by chad878262 »

Generally if folks bring up concerns in a mature manner discussion will continue and if an argument has merit we'll discuss in qc. Simply put yes any race with bonus to stats is as good as epic feats of the specific build yippy are going for requires those stats... Why so many paladin/blackguard/cleric dips are aasimar instead of human or another race? Simple, easier/faster access to edm with only downside being +1 ecl... Edit Rule #2 - Hawke I'm certainly not going to participate in your discussion our give any thought to your suggestion, maybe others will...
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aaron22
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by aaron22 »

If you are so upset about it. Just roll a human. Ok it with the DM Team. RP as a half and be happy.

There is no more a bias on HO wizards as there are for elf barbarians. They both can be effective and are current on the server.
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ARHicks00
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

chad878262 wrote:Generally if folks bring up concerns in a mature manner discussion will continue and if an argument has merit we'll discuss in qc. Simply put yes any race with bonus to stats is as good as epic feats of the specific build yippy are going for requires those stats... Why so many paladin/blackguard/cleric dips are aasimar instead of human or another race? Simple, easier/faster access to edm with only downside being +1 ecl... Edit Rule#2 - Hawke I'm certainly not going to participate in your discussion our give any thought to your suggestion, maybe others will...
I wasn't being mean, but I'm a cynic meaning I know there is underline motivation to why there is a disagreement. For the most part, I'm the most sarcastic and humor person you can meet, even when I roleplay, it is reflected in my characters. Dash Armana who was on earlier was total Edit Rule #5 -Hawke despite being Neutral Good because while he believe in doing good, he's not afraid to speak his mind or throw a little humor when people trying to be serious. Dash's mess to serious folk he meets to ease up and enjoy life as there is more than life than achieve your goals.

All my character share some aspect of my personality. With that being sad, most of what I said is cynical and sarcastic in nature, but make no mistake, I am going to call out a situation for what it is. How you take it is up to you, but as an adult it is better to be honest and brutal than nice and dishonest. :lol: If something goes too far, I step back from the situation, but that's not the case now. I'm sorry, if I hurt your feelings, but that again, I'm just being honest about the situation and what the suppose half-orc upgrades have amounted too.
aaron22 wrote:If you are so upset about it. Just roll a human. Ok it with the DM Team. RP as a half and be happy.

There is no more a bias on HO wizards as there are for elf barbarians. They both can be effective and are current on the server.
I'm playing a human, but when I look around, I'm surrounded by nothing, but humans...and elves. DM team made a upgrade, but I guess they didn't take inconsideration of the bugs and long term uselessness of the decision. (No insult to the wonderful DM) It's something that can be easily fix by making minor adjustments for more versatility.

As for the current state of the server, the heavy human and elf population as well as your "go human" suggestion narrows down the viability of half orcs in this server. :lol:
Last edited by ARHicks00 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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flipside43
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by flipside43 »

Steve wrote:
ARHicks00 wrote:Let's be honest the people screaming to not give orcs reworking or to give them ECL have a in-game racial bias. They rather see players play orcs as savages than have to deal with orc that extremely intelligent. (sic)
:lol:
+1

I must have overlooked this in-game racial bias! Seriously, if you are already reducing to ad hominem attacks about others inability to separate IC from OOC over not agreeing with you at least please correct it to account for all the orc hugging that is prevalent on the server!
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AC81
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by AC81 »

For a new player to BG, the way you present your arguments will not win you any friends or favours. You had the same argumentative stance on the NWN2db many years ago.
I never said half-orcs need to be brought to par with other races - why should they be? Just like all classes aren't balanced neither should all races. What I did say was that the half-orc is well balanced FOR OUR SERVER Edit Rule #2 -Hawke.
Again, half-orcs make great fighter types and are passable when it comes to classes that involve chr or int. This isn't to say they can't be successful or easily negotiate our pw. Mechanically BG is not demanding.
Rule #2 -Hawke Half-Orc has already been buffed, Rule #2 -Hawke It's favoured class Barbarian has also just received a massive buff. One thing you haven't mentioned is the RP stigma of playing a PC who is half orc. This problem has also been helped by the introduction of a northern clanhold/village where players of evil races and evil half-orcs can gather. This is perhaps the biggest boon for a half-orc player, especially given the history of this server regarding orcs.
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ARHicks00
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

flipside43 wrote:
Steve wrote:
ARHicks00 wrote:Let's be honest the people screaming to not give orcs reworking or to give them ECL have a in-game racial bias. They rather see players play orcs as savages than have to deal with orc that extremely intelligent. (sic)
:lol:
+1

I must have overlooked this in-game racial bias! Seriously, if you are already reducing to ad hominem attacks about others inability to separate IC from OOC over not agreeing with you at least please correct it to account for all the orc hugging that is prevalent on the server!
I'm sorry, but whose character did I attack. I don't remember sling poo at anyone. :lol: Before you accuse me of smelling the place up at least provide evidence where as I axed murdered said poster for speaking their mind.
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flipside43
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by flipside43 »

... it's the quote mate. Those were your words.
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

AC81 wrote:For a new player to BG, the way you present your arguments will not win you any friends or favours. You had the same argumentative stance on the NWN2db many years ago.
I never said half-orcs need to be brought to par with other races - why should they be? Just like all classes aren't balanced neither should all races. What I did say was that the half-orc is well balanced FOR OUR SERVER Edit Rule #2 -Hawke.
Again, half-orcs make great fighter types and are passable when it comes to classes that involve chr or int. This isn't to say they can't be successful or easily negotiate our pw. Mechanically BG is not demanding.
Rule #2 -Hawke Half-Orc has already been buffed, Rule #2 -Hawke It's favoured class Barbarian has also just received a massive buff. One thing you haven't mentioned is the RP stigma of playing a PC who is half orc. This problem has also been helped by the introduction of a northern clanhold/village where players of evil races and evil half-orcs can gather. This is perhaps the biggest boon for a half-orc player, especially given the history of this server regarding orcs.
1. I've made this argument since NWN1 and some server change the way server races were done and some server didn't. They don't have to agree as truth is truth.

2. Other races have versatility and orcs don't, which limits their roles play and viability.

3. But it isn't as plays the same other servers. What feats you get in this server does not reflect on their overall gameplay and versatility. +1 Con and Blooded feat isn't a game breaking feature that changes the dynamic of how the classes played or has been played before. :lol: You act like the bugged feat and +1 attribute open a door the 5th dimension. :lol: You put this type of orc on any other server, you'd get the same results.

4. NWN is not demanding in general and a figher-type is not hard to play. Just point and click. Fighters can't do much unless you give them skills or extra feats...which is where other race excel at. Again, Orcs get a +1 damage/hit and with carrying items.

5. What buff? The +1 Constitution that attributes to nothing or the non-existent Blooded feat that isn't added to your feat list and contributes to very little. :lol: That non-existent +1 to my 26/+8 roll sure did me some good against the Halfling Rogue with +28/9 Dexterity and the Ranger Elf with +30/10 Dexterity. :lol:

6. Actually, I have address the issue and I know what to expect when playing one. I did research on the half-orc before playing them so I wouldn't be surprised by prejudice I got. Every server has a half-orc taboo, but that has little to do with the botch upgrades they got.
Last edited by ARHicks00 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ARHicks00
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

flipside43 wrote:... it's the quote mate. Those were your words.
I'm not denying them, I ask who did I personally attack because that is what I am being accused of. :lol:
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AC81
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by AC81 »

Tell me what it is that half-orcs can't do on this server. And please, don't bring other servers and other games into this. Tell us all, what builds half-orcs cannot play. Tell us WHY they can't be successful here.

I bet I can build any non-stereotype half-orc build you want and that build will be able to dominate 99% of the server.
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Hawke
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by Hawke »

Good luck with this. I support some change to HOrcs.

I tried doing that a year ago.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=50183

Please feel free to reference for some ideas.
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aaron22
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by aaron22 »

AC81 wrote:Tell me what it is that half-orcs can't do on this server. And please, don't bring other servers and other games into this. Tell us all, what builds half-orcs cannot play. Tell us WHY they can't be successful here.

I bet I can build any non-stereotype half-orc build you want and that build will be able to dominate 99% of the server.
Not only that. But it has likely been done before as well.
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ARHicks00
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Re: Time to the fix the Half-Orc

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

AC81 wrote:Tell me what it is that half-orcs can't do on this server.
Quote, "5. You to think, I'm against, half-orc paladin, bards, sorcerers, wizards, etc. It's the fact that there attributes making very hard to not only be those classes, do so without being gimped or having another class out perform them in those areas. As I said, human do better than half-orcs as barbarians and that's sad."

Quote, "3. That's because a bard have a 16/+3 limit to achieve maximum spellcasting. Hell, I played a tiefling bard that well because of all the extra attribute one point lying around after you make your bard. I mean my tiefling bard would either have a crap load of dexterity, strength, or intelligence while landing a 12 to 13 charisma. You can make an half-orc paladin with EDM, but he would be short a lot a few feats and skills, but it's doable. However, when compared to other classes, EVEN ONES WHO DON'T SPECIALIZE IN BARD, they can do it way better and still have room for versatility. This is the half-orcs problem. Trying to make a version of a character that would other wise be built better, just force you to gimp yourself and leads to a less stellar vision of [insert race] who could have done it better."
:lol:
AC81 wrote:And please, don't bring other servers and other games into this.
BG may have added a lot of feats from the book, but none of those feats reflect on the Half-orcs overall performance as noted above. So whether you want to include other servers or not, there gameplay has not been changed by the +1 Con and non-existent Blooded feat.

AC81 wrote:Tell us all, what builds half-orcs cannot play. Tell us WHY they can't be successful here.
Never did I say you can't build a half-orc mage, but I said you'd be gimping yourself to prove that you could and anything you could do, would be done better by another race. To put it simple, if I had 5 rogues from different races who can pick a lock, disarm a trap, or sneak pass a character, that Half-orc would be the last picked. Not because of an in game racial reason, but it's likely that Half-orc is going to come up short in terms of skills since Intelligence isn't there forte. Ditto with a half paladin negotiating a evil character in giving up the hostage. Not just because of the lack of skill, but hurting to charisma. But yes, you can build a paladin half-orc successful, but never as good as other races who make the same build. Simply put a half-orc lacks versatility that other races get in both gameplay and roleplay. They can't don't even have dedicated PrC classes. As I said, if you are playing a half-orc, you're doing it for fun, than actually building something serious. That's why we have a huge elf/human population. (on this server and others)
AC81 wrote:I bet I can build any non-stereotype half-orc build you want and that build will be able to dominate 99% of the server.
:lol: So when did I say the server was too hard to play? You haven't been listening/reading my argument. I suggest you go back and read the post I've been making for the past two pages. None of the posts are asking for the DMs to ease I[ on the hardness of the server or upgrade the half-orc to make playing the server easier. :lol: I've been spelling it out what I want for the orc for the past two pages Edit Rule#2 -Hawke
aaron22 wrote:Not only that. But it has likely been done before as well.
You can easily go in NWN2DB too and find some orc builds, but you'll find the majority them are melee based builds, center around strength frenzy berserker, barbarian, or fighter than anything else. :lol: However, I can find a boat load of human, Halfling, and elf based builds in that server. In fact, I believe that a built in statistics in that server that lets you know the most used class, race, etc.
Last edited by ARHicks00 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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