HDM voting

For Guidance, Questions, or Concerns Relating to Server Rules and Forum Rules

Moderators: Moderator, Quality Control, Developer, DM

User avatar
Akroma666
Posts: 1891
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:24 pm
Location: California

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Akroma666 »

Steve wrote: Overall, I think you'd get more traction if you wrote the Admins a letter stating your observations of why the current HDMs are not working in your opinion, and let the Admins decide what to do.
Already did.. well not directly at them, just the current administration interpretation of "rules." Mostly focused towards changing that interpretation and reducing the number of rules to focus more on what matters.. having fun. It's nothing personal about current HDMs, just rule interpretation.
Storm - The Blade Flurry
Druegar Grizzleclaw - The Mountain Ruin Tsar
Akroma Thuul - The Creepy Enchanter
Liliana Duskblade - The B*tch of Bane
Jamie Dawnbringer - The Light in the Darkness
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Steve »

It is and was my experience that every rule was reluctantly written.

What I mean is that Rules most often come about because one or more players participates in poor sportsmanship, and abuses the system to their own advantage, or, to force play on others or exploit for selfish gain.

The HDM has the position to add/adjust/remove rules in order to support the best environment possible for what little equality we can hold onto. In general, it works.

Maybe, if you could show us all examples where less Rules have contributed to an equal or better gaming Server, it would be helpful to plead your case. Just giving an opinion about it probably won't change many minds.

But, if you have already laid out a solid, fact filled case, or, shown great emotional integrity in your plea to the HDMs +/- the Admins, and they ignored you, then yeah, it is simply a disagreement of terms that you'll either try to live with, or probably leave the Server in frustration.

Or, you could realize that the majority of Staff decisions DO NOT get in the way of Role-play. Sure, some RP falls apart because of changes, but is your life ruined over it? I really hope not, Akroma!!

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
Hawke
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:11 pm

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Hawke »

The current system has HDMs rotating out fairly frequently as is. Ditto and Dialectic were just voted in last June or July. I am not going to pretend to know everything that they do, but I imagine keeping continuity and enforcement of standards of all events is probably close to a part of it.

Even if a DM gets pushed up to HDM, there has to be a learning curve, as more effort has to be made with both the plotlines, one offs, etc along with more intimacy with the back-end of NWN2's engine and even networking with the server. The latter probably is shared with others, but I think they would have to at least have an understanding... but I digress.

The point is, it probably takes a HDM a month or two just to get their feet wet. Then a few months later, passing of the mantle? I am not sure that will help with flow of events.

I think some of us can forget that the people running the server, events, plot lines, forums, building, etc are doing so on their free time. No one is getting paid and have families and an actual paying job to support themselves and their families and their gaming habits to perform a service with their valuable time. Because they like it.

Are there accusations of abuse of power? Sure. Do we make mistakes? Yes, we, do. Everybody falls. It's how they get back up that they see the kind of person they are.

Does the server need an overhaul? I don't know. That is stuff behind the curtain that I don't have a clue what actually goes on. The DMs do DM stuff. They police up their own. Their duty description is posted, and if we want to suggest changing that, sure, let's do it. But, we have a duty to be responsible and reasonable with those suggestions, because these folks are doing this on their own time.

The call for more transparency cannot work here. The team here is large, yes, but broken up into teams. Those teams each have a "division head", someone who makes sure they are doing what they are supposed to do. If we had full transparency of every mistake the DM team made, then that would just put the DM team in a negative light. Then call for removal of DMs because of a single mistake. We then get mobs with pitchforks and torches. Okay maybe that is a little much, but I hope the point is gotten. With the example of above, the HDM is supposed to log and record what problems are had, then try to correct the action of the DM. The DM goes on, and makes a different mistake, and the process goes on and on.

This cannot be true of every HDM as they are people, who may or may not be trained in that methodology in the outside world, but hopefully learned something of it while being a DM by his HDM. If the problem is the current management, then maybe a call for their removal would be the prudent course of action. I, myself, don't see us being there with these HDMs. So we should allow the process to continue on.

There are other servers, but this one has a LOT of dedicated folks determined to make the experience a good one.

The staff here on this server is actually quite large when you think about it. All for one purpose as stated above.


Let us not forget this, please.
dzidek1983
Posts: 1248
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:02 am
Location: Poland

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by dzidek1983 »

I'm against public voting for DM positions.
Hey, I just lost it, And this is crazy, But here's my login, So PM me, maybe?
User avatar
Vermilion
Recognized Donor
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:32 am
Location: UK

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Vermilion »

dzidek1983 wrote:I'm against public voting for DM positions.
Agreed, without fully understanding the duties and responsibilities involved it would just degenerate to a popularity contest.
Login: VermilionVirtue

Active
Llengar Hammerstock - A principled thug.
Elspeth Dharvoon - A reformed character? (Biography)
User avatar
aaron22
Recognized Donor
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:39 pm
Location: New York

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by aaron22 »

snip
I think some of us can forget that the people running the server, events, plot lines, forums, building, etc are doing so on their free time. No one is getting paid and have families and an actual paying job to support themselves and their families and their gaming habits to perform a service with their valuable time. Because they like it.
and this is where i find the removal of the most active, talented, creative and perceptive DM's so disheartening. these people are not a dime a dozen. a little transparency in matters like this could really alleviate any of this pitchforking toward the administration. most of us do not know the offenses of these DM's to warrant their removal. how bad and often these offenses occurred. how detrimental the offenses are to the server.

i understand that everything being out in the open is not needed or wanted. but i cannot help but feel sorry for the DM's and the admin on this. because I do not know the details, i am left with assumptions. and these assumptions maybe misleading my voice for what i feel like is an abrupt change in my quality of life on the server. so i am left feeling bad on one hand for these DM's that worked so hard for us and may have been removed for reasons i may not feel are worthy of such treatment. and on the other side of that coin. i feel sorry for the admin that made these changes. because they too work hard for my enjoyment and their judgment may have been spot on. making these firings totally reasonable. so they, while looking out for the players, are now receiving major backlash from the players they are looking out for all along.

the lack of insight brings me to this point. i am left with only wanting my cake and eat it too. hera, lobo, and creo are my cake. and wanting to enjoy my time on the server with a fair and respectful staff are eating my cake too.
Khar B'ukagaroh
"You never know how strong you are until being strong is your only choice."
Bob Marley
chad878262
QC Coordinator
Posts: 9334
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by chad878262 »

Let's say you work for a company and a Sales person gets fired. Would it be fair for that company to announce that said Sales person violated the Anti Bribery and Corruption laws of x country? What about if that individual was siphoning money on contracts in to their own account?

We, as members of this community are not entitled to know about specific offenses that removed staff members committed from the Admins. As I've said in other threads, I don't really like these removals, but I do support the Admins and HDMs that are required to make them. As Creo said, they have a tough job and for the most part do it well. However, a certain number of violations and complaints were logged and they felt they had to take action.

Now, based on the PM's that have been pasted in the various threads there are some areas where the information provided to the removed staff members appears to be vague, but we do not know if any other PM's were sent that provided the DM's with more specifics as to the complaints/violations. In any case it simply comes down too weather you trust in the Admins and HDM's to make the right decisions based on the information they have available to them. Because, in the end it would be a betrayal of trust for those leaders to specify in any level of detail why they are removing a staff member or banning a player or whatever else. If that individual wants to share, as has been done the past few days then fine, it's an individual's choice to do so, but it is not the place of the Admins to share such information with the community, even if by doing so it makes them look better as if they made a 'right' call in any given situation.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
User avatar
aaron22
Recognized Donor
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:39 pm
Location: New York

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by aaron22 »

that chad, is exactly what i am trying to say. i do not feel they should share the why's on it. but not knowing the why's is why it hurts to see from both angles. i do trust that the admin is doing what they feel is best for the community. i also trust that the dm's do what is best for the community. somewhere my/our trust has been violated. that is why i am feel bad for both sides. i do not envy anyone that i am speaking on. they do what i cannot. i respect all of them. not just for this, but in addition to standard human respect given.

if i am totally honest, and this has been shared to a few of my friends here, i blame the players. there are right and wrong ways to do things. there are consequences to actions. and i do not feel like the GP has done this with the maturity that i would expect. i obviously do not know the whole story. just bits and pieces here, and all of them from the subconsciously tilted perspective of individuals. so i feel bad for the admin and the DM's that were targeted. both are victims of what seems to be a player base that lacks perspective.
Khar B'ukagaroh
"You never know how strong you are until being strong is your only choice."
Bob Marley
User avatar
Akroma666
Posts: 1891
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:24 pm
Location: California

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Akroma666 »

Agree with Aaron on this one.

I personally at this point don't trust the system as it stands.. Creo, lobo, and Hera didn't money launder.. they took a grey area and lived in it. Lobo refused to comply with the terms of a probation because it was stupid to begin with. And lobo and Hera generated complaints for the most rediculous of reasons.. why.. because certain members of the community are spoiled brats that need attention.

I'll say this, of ever single member on the current DM team, i have only spoken to soulcatcher and Flasmix. And I have never been in a single event for either. Creo, Lobo, and Hera are the only ones that showed me the time of day when I had a problem or wanted to share my RP with others. You wonder why so many of you never see me in game.. take a good look at what you do to other peoples "fun" when you needless wine to the admins/DMs.

Favoritism calls.. pft.. half of you people crying about favoritism aren't worth the the second look.
Storm - The Blade Flurry
Druegar Grizzleclaw - The Mountain Ruin Tsar
Akroma Thuul - The Creepy Enchanter
Liliana Duskblade - The B*tch of Bane
Jamie Dawnbringer - The Light in the Darkness
User avatar
Flasmix
Associate DM
Posts: 2500
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:22 am
Location: Cult of Skebbeton HQ

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Flasmix »

Image
Wirg to Pug: "Iz lat dun?"
Pugratix to a snarky militia man: "Mmmm. Not yet. I will live for hundreds of years and be heralded as one of the greatest forces of destruction on the face of the world. The only thing you can destroy is the outhouse."
Israe
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Israe »

Second the comments below. Do appreciate the current DM team, but now attention was scarce- the most active DM's gone mean it will be spread even more thin and DM'ing will likely become a job. The community as a whole would like to see the rules possibly lax a bit on the DM side, and some more trust in the DM's that are hired. I've seen major rule breaking by DM's, but the three above didn't do any of those major issues.

The community as a whole liked what they brought, and we are losing out for not having them anymore. New dm's may come in, but we have faith in those three because they proved their skill/qualities.
Akroma666 wrote:Agree with Aaron on this one.

I personally at this point don't trust the system as it stands.. Creo, lobo, and Hera didn't money launder.. they took a grey area and lived in it. Lobo refused to comply with the terms of a probation because it was stupid to begin with. And lobo and Hera generated complaints for the most rediculous of reasons.. why.. because certain members of the community are spoiled brats that need attention.

I'll say this, of ever single member on the current DM team, i have only spoken to soulcatcher and Flasmix. And I have never been in a single event for either. Creo, Lobo, and Hera are the only ones that showed me the time of day when I had a problem or wanted to share my RP with others. You wonder why so many of you never see me in game.. take a good look at what you do to other peoples "fun" when you needless wine to the admins/DMs.

Favoritism calls.. pft.. half of you people crying about favoritism aren't worth the the second look.
User avatar
Deathgrowl
Recognized Donor
Posts: 6509
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:10 pm
Location: VIKING NORWAY!
Contact:

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

Israe wrote:The community as a whole would like to see the rules possibly lax a bit on the DM side, and some more trust in the DM's that are hired.
Yeah? You know, two years ago the forums were in an uproar over percieved favoritism, and the DMs most openly accused of it had no evidence presented against them. And now you want more relaxed rules on that sort of stuff?

Ditto made a post in which she quoted former HDM Narshe from his resignation post. I encourage everyone to read Narshe's post in full, if they haven't before, or indeed read it again if they have. There's a lot of good wisdom there. And maybe after reading it, reconsider if your ideas really are better:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=52825

When I myself resigned as a DM, I adressed a few points as well that seems to just always remain relevant. Here's one:
DM Ghost wrote:We are of course also humans, we DMs (with the exception of Maecius, who is a book - and to be fair, no longer a DM) and we're not perfect. It is difficult not to be drawn towards certain people for their RP, even as a DM, but we try to remind ourselves and each other to practice fairness. But even so, I'm sure there are genuine cases to be made about individual DMs showing favouritism or other corruption. Indeed, without mentioning names, I know a few in the past who have done so. But every time this happens, it has become quite clear for me that it happens due to the DM doing things on their own without consulting the team as a whole. Unfortunately, these things also sometimes manage to stay under the radar for quite a while, or just remain complaining from players without substantiating evidence, so the HDMs cannot really act on it, though I know they do try to investigate.
Laitae Lafreth, became Chosen of Mystra, former Great Reader of Candlekeep
Nëa the Little Shadow
Obahzk Elf-Skinner, Blackguard of Gruumsh and orcish war drummer

Free music:
http://soundcloud.com/progressionmusic/sets/luna
User avatar
mrm3ntalist
Retired Staff
Posts: 7712
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: Skala Kallonis, Lesvos, Greece

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Most here dont know what an HDM does, nor they should care to know. They should only care to log in game and have fun. Trying to be kind and not to express what i really think of this suggestion, I ll just say that it is a very bad idea.
IS EMOTIONAL KEKW - GIT GUD

Mendel - Villi of En Dharasha Everae | Nikos Berenicus - Initiate of the Mirari | Efialtes Rodius - Blood Magus | Olaf Garaeif - Dwarven Slayer

Spelling mistakes are purposely entered for your entertainment!
User avatar
DiceyCZ
Quality Control
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:18 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by DiceyCZ »

As many have said...this is not the way a server leadership can be done...

1. For a player DM/HDM/GM/DEV (etc.) situtions are not transparent and there's a good reason for that.

2. Making a HDM post like politician's by voting on them would exactly just result in a popularity contest. HDM would only start caring about what's popular with most people and not doing what's right or fair. (might not be well explained but I hope someone gets what I mean) Not to forget there would be things like lobying and so on even though not in the usual sense.

3. Last and probably most important is that the uppermost leadership of the server are usually people who put most into the server over the years...it's a thankless job that kept the server alive for this long. And what's worst is that we sometimes forget that, when something to us unfair happens. I was also very, very sad to see the recent events with DMs and I am not defending the decision partly because I loved all three of them and partly because I don't know the reasons. But players are not the solely most important part of the server (however that might sound) for it's existance and we have to keep in mind that not only there might not be that many people wanting to take on HDM position but also that they have done a lot of good things we might not be necessarily aware of.

...I am not trying to be insensitive to either side, but the truth is like this. Players and DMs come and go and they can always just try another server if they dislike what's being done with this one but without certain people in the chain of leadership with some experience and want, this place would not exist and we could all just pack.
Niyressa Dawncrow (bio) - Head Magus, Bladestone Foundation
"Magic is Chaos, Art, and Science. It is a curse, a blessing, and progress. It all depends on who uses magic, how they use it, and to what purpose. And magic is everywhere. All around us.” - Yennefer
User avatar
aaron22
Recognized Donor
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:39 pm
Location: New York

Re: HDM voting

Unread post by aaron22 »

that is not only fair dicey, it is all true. in addition, we players should be more mindful of the things we do TO OURSELVES. complaints should be REAL. not speculation or a snip of this and a snip of that. not paraphrase or out of context references. WE need to be more mindful of the impacts WE are making to ourselves in a negative manner.

I am loyal to this server. do not want to leave and it is due to some of the wonderful players i have met here. the wonderful players i have yet to meet. and the stability and competence of our admin.

I too do not know what happened. how many warnings they received. how they responded to said warnings and how much they acknowledged them. how much respect was given and received. What I do know is that some of this is due to complaints issued in response to things that could have been discussed like grown ups. if this were a case of a few bad apples, then i would imagine the admin would be able to see through this. so this makes me wonder if it isnt just a few bad apples. that worries me alot.

I have seen before that if you have a problem with a DM you seek out a HDM and give your piece. I dont think this is really the best answer in all cases. i know it cliche, but act like a man and do this face to face. not behind backs so that misunderstandings get turned into rules breaking offenses.

be thankful for what you have, not angry about what you dont have. perspective.

Sometimes this place feels just like the "playground" that it is sometimes referenced to as.
Khar B'ukagaroh
"You never know how strong you are until being strong is your only choice."
Bob Marley
Locked

Return to “Rules”