HDM voting

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Steve
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Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Steve »

DiceyCZ wrote:... the uppermost leadership of the server are usually people who put most into the server over the years...it's a thankless job that kept the server alive for this long.
Actually, it's only thankless if you don't thank them.

Which can easily be remedied. YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO!!! 8-)

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PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
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trogers2
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Re: HDM voting

Unread post by trogers2 »

The admin team do an amazing job, and it isn't their fault. It is the system.

Bottom line is this; the server will go on without us -- but brutallity like this (which in my view could have been avoided) only serves to strengthen the Them (i.e. DMs) vs US (players) mentaillty -- many players are bitter at the staff here and you have to ask why? The system promotes doing less, not more -- and it results in a barron wasteland event wise.

When a DM is removed (from my experience as lobo and from other sources I spoke to) the DM who gets axed is just as shocked and confused as the community is. We are given no time to wrap up any on going plot or ideas and everything is left in the open. OK, A system is in place for other DMs to take over old plots -- but this rarely happens.

By the time we have read the removal letter, we have already been booted and 95% of the time the reasons are hazy and it leads to confusion and anger. Normally what happens is the reasons 'stack up' and it becomes a numbers game i.e. complaints, without us knowing -- then BOOM, removal letter. Gone. Other times the reasons presented make no sense at all and seem utterly ridiculous.

That is why it cuts so deep. We don't know it is coming. It could happen any time.


Maecius explained to me that they adapted this system to prevent damage to the server as a DM who was aware they are going to be axed could go on a rampage, and that makes sense -- and it works, mostly. It is essentially straping on a bomb jacket when you join the team, knowing at any time they could press the button. It breeds fear, and is not something we should have on our team. However it is dreadfully disrespectful to the DM in question, not to mention it causes a drift between the DM team and the community. Each time it is done.

Does the 'drop kick when you are not looking' methord work? Yes. Could it be better? 100% Yes, the removal process does not need to be so cut and dry, the removal process does not need to be so dark and illusive.

I do not think HDM voting would work, but I would like to see communication and more openness with the DM / HDM team, and from what I have seen -- they are getting better at it but there is still a lot of room for improvement.

What I would suggest is transparancy. The DM who gets a concern or 'complaint' should be contacted and spoken to regarding it (each time it happens), until they have been approched and allowed to give their side of the story -- the complaint / issue should not be valid, instead, here it seems anyone can attach a 'concern' to the HDM team and said DM will gain 1 complaint, without us knowing -- and this is the problem. When complaints are proven to be valid I would opt for a 3 strike system, where the DM is removed on the third strike. Atleast then it is not so 'sneak attack' as it is now. It may also be a good idea to have a criteria which lists what actually merits as a 'complaint' because this is where things can go off the rails if 'anything' is marked as a complaint it leaves huge holes for abuse
The DM was ignoring tells
The words concern and complaint should not be brushed together. Any any concerns should be looked into, but common sense I feel would serve the system well.

I do want to reassure players considering to become a DM to not be put off by this, in my honest experience; it is the DMs with the ambitions who either sink into the mud, or fall silent and the more submissive / passive DMs who thrive. Big ideas are not a bad thing, but normally are the reason behind the storm -- and any future DMs should constantly check in with the HDM team, keep the others in the loop and leave plenty of notice doing that and you should be fine.
Formally: DM Lobo

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SBlack
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Re: HDM voting

Unread post by SBlack »

trogers2 wrote:What I would suggest is transparancy. The DM who gets a concern or 'complaint' should be contacted and spoken to regarding it (each time it happens), until they have been approched and allowed to give their side of the story -- the complaint / issue should not be valid, instead, here it seems anyone can attach a 'concern' to the HDM team and said DM will gain 1 complaint, without us knowing -- and this is the problem. When complaints are proven to be valid I would opt for a 3 strike system, where the DM is removed on the third strike. Atleast then it is not so 'sneak attack' as it is now. It may also be a good idea to have a criteria which lists what actually merits as a 'complaint' because this is where things can go off the rails if 'anything' is marked as a complaint it leaves huge holes for abuse .
I'll say this. I've not reported very many people since Beta on various accounts on and off, mostly the later. Can't even tell you how many angry tells I've gotten. Half of which I had no idea even why they were mad. I always give the benefit of the doubt. Bad day, stressed, bad place, drunk, high, or just have anger issues. After all, it's just angry words on a screen. In the past of those people I very reluctantly reported for pretty grievous issues of abuse and cheating every single one of them found out and I got harassed. So I found it was in my best interest to not report anyone for anything. In one case it was a DM who stalked me constantly trying to kill me and looked for every opportunity to make it look like I was cheating. Another DM was a bit more subtle in his 'revenge'. Players who I reported trolled me, used exploits, tried to get others IC to be against my characters and generally otherwise harassed me. It is a very, very bad idea for transparency in such cases. If someone is doing something they shouldn't or just abusing their position do you think they are going to be adult / complacent when someone complains about them. Heck No.

I've seen the other side which you perceive as well. There are people who get mad at a singular RP incident, don't like a character, don't like a player, don't like a guild, don't like team evil/good and for personal and / or tactical reasons make complaints about people. There is some shady and petty stuff going on, but thankfully it's in the minority. I've brought that up myself a number of times over the years and have been rebuffed. I understand the reasoning, they don't want to discourage complaints. However, I'll agree with you that if it is very clear someone is bearing false witness IMO, lay down the hammer. Somewhat friendly warning first. Then severe consequences.

These days I believe in the philosophy, commitment to the players, and would feel very comfortable in allowing a 13 year old child to play here. The system might need tweaking, but it come a very long way and at least IMO is the best server around for players.
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trogers2
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Re: HDM voting

Unread post by trogers2 »

You bring up some great points Sblack, and I totally see what you mean.

I think it all boils down to this: Humans are complicated. We have feelings, emotions, conflicts and each person has their own wiring and views -- this can be good and bad.

Maybe you are right. The idea I put up was an example, and if I gave it some more thought I could probably come up with something a bit more refined. I do not believe though that the current system is flawless, and my greatest fear is events like this croping up again (which they will)

The whole drop kick approch has reasoning and logic, I just feel it is not the best way to approch the issue. Toxic DMs will crop up on the team from time to time, it is unavoidable, and somtimes they can go unnoticed for months. I do understand why the admin / HDM team are so edgy with the booting process however, but punishing good and bad DMs (throwing us all together) I believe does more harm than good.

As a basis some firm terms should be put down to clearly define what counts as a solid complaint, at the least and what are grounds for removal and what are not; currently anything a player send in with your name on it counts, and this is where problems creep in.
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Steve
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Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Steve »

trogers2 wrote:...currently anything a player send in with your name on it counts, and this is where problems creep in.
Do you not agree that the Head DMs and/or the Administration actually make quality decisions about what "complaints" have merit, and which do not?

Like, do you think, had I sent in a PM saying "DM Bloodlust is a jerk, fire them!" that it would actually get traction? But, had I sent in: "DM Bloodlust gave me a certain item that I am actually embarrassed to have received, and now I'm asking you if a) I should keep it, b) it is fair to the Community that one DM in particular is easy on the Big Rewards....", that the HDMs and/or Admins wouldn't actually discuss this? And make a educated decision as what to do?

Now, according to Creo, some removals were their sole judgement. Valid or not valid? Well, that is for Maecius and Endelyon to decide, isn't it? Of course, should they decide, whatever they decide, we the "people" just have to go with it, don't we? That is just how it works around here, mate.

Look, having been a HDM myself, AND having been given the boot by Luna from the Team for being a loud spoken, challenging and won't-let-that-(#2)-go kinda person—in those days at least—I think I actually understand a bit of what and how and why this "system" is in place, and why it works.

And currently, it works very well. On a personal note, I'd rather have quality over quantity. What I mean by that is, having active and loose DMs means nothing to me, but instead, quality DMs that are comfortable with the System and investing in the details, just makes a ton of sense. To me, at least. :|

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
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AC81
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Re: HDM voting

Unread post by AC81 »

They broke the rules, they got the consequences. Simple. I'm sure they were all good DM's, but they broke the rules, so they've gotta go. I don't see where the confusion is. Break rules, accept consequences.
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Planehopper
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Re: HDM voting

Unread post by Planehopper »

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