Ban the use of non-english languages

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Sun Wukong
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Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:22 am

Gaer zhah naubol xusst xuil kl'aein l'wun nibele ssivah entry, jhal vel'drav fol players insist pholor kl'aein natha foreign xanalress ol morfethe ol greatly xull ulu inbal jala reasonable wun character xor doeb d'character lakkanen. A alurl ol zhah fridj stath vec'end wiles scattered ghil lu'gaer, lu'a sslith dos ph'required ulu kl'ae biu do'suul dras'fes ulu tangis'kampi'un basic obsul'ress d'communication. Fol xal wa'tani nindel ol beldroe natha mzild immersive environment, jhal ol gumash naut tlu feirur tarthe dal l'aster. Ol beldroe barriers lu'hake, lu'breeds natha filut d'elitism based pholor natha myar'a notion d'role-jivvust ethan. Fol plynn zhennu vhaisse wun lu'oh xull nind ph'ulu kampi'un lu'interact xuil - lu'ol zhah d'nau intrinsic ritze. Folt players ph'alurl ulu jiaol, lu'therefore Usstan satiir l'server orn'la tlu alur tir a banning l'kl'ae d'foreign wiles, maunq'a sprinkled ghil lu'gaer xor wun retlah estaxan.
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There is nothing wrong with using the in game voice entry, but when some players insist on using a foreign language it makes it greatly difficult to have any reasonable in character or out of character conversations. At best it is just few odd words scattered here and there, and at worst you are required to use an outside translator to even understand basic level of communication. Some might argue that it creates a more immersive environment, but it could not be farther away from the truth. It creates barriers and conflicts, and breeds a sense of elitism based on a false notion of role-playing quality. Some take great pride in how difficult they are to understand and interact with - and it is of no intrinsic value. Such players are best to avoid, and therefore I feel the server would be better off by banning the use of foreign words, whether sprinkled here and there or in full sentences.
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MrPsion
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by MrPsion » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:33 am

Anyone else notice how only the first of the three newish Shadowrun games had the slang? Almost as if they realized they were making their game inaccessible to a new audience

e: one more thing, I read a clockwork orange, it's very difficult even with a slang appendix
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Khazrak
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by Khazrak » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:23 am

Just to ask, are you talking about the use of real-world languages (such as someone dropping in a Latin phrase on rare occasions), or someone speaking in dictionary Drow language stuff (xas bwael ilharess), or something else?

I kind of want more elaboration on the situations that sparked this.

(Also, all the Harebrained Schemes games set in the Shadowrun setting use the slang and they're pretty tight.)

scriver
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by scriver » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:27 am

For the sake of earnest discussion, please say that you are talking about drowspeak if that is what it's about.

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Hoihe
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by Hoihe » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:54 am

MrPsion wrote:Anyone else notice how only the first of the three newish Shadowrun games had the slang? Almost as if they realized they were making their game inaccessible to a new audience

e: one more thing, I read a clockwork orange, it's very difficult even with a slang appendix

Slang can work. But only if it is presented as a real separate language from the narration. Pidgins/Creoles make that the easiest.

See: Expanse. STAY AWAY FROM TE OWKWA
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NegInfinity
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by NegInfinity » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:03 pm

Sun Wukong wrote:Gaer zhah naubol xusst xuil kl'aein l'wun nibele ssivah entry, jhal vel'drav fol players insist pholor kl'aein natha foreign xanalress ol morfethe ol greatly xull ulu inbal jala reasonable wun character xor doeb d'character lakkanen. A alurl ol zhah fridj stath vec'end wiles scattered ghil lu'gaer, lu'a sslith dos ph'required ulu kl'ae biu do'suul dras'fes ulu tangis'kampi'un basic obsul'ress d'communication. Fol xal wa'tani nindel ol beldroe natha mzild immersive environment, jhal ol gumash naut tlu feirur tarthe dal l'aster. Ol beldroe barriers lu'hake, lu'breeds natha filut d'elitism based pholor natha myar'a notion d'role-jivvust ethan. Fol plynn zhennu vhaisse wun lu'oh xull nind ph'ulu kampi'un lu'interact xuil - lu'ol zhah d'nau intrinsic ritze. Folt players ph'alurl ulu jiaol, lu'therefore Usstan satiir l'server orn'la tlu alur tir a banning l'kl'ae d'foreign wiles, maunq'a sprinkled ghil lu'gaer xor wun retlah estaxan.
Hidden: show
There is nothing wrong with using the in game voice entry, but when some players insist on using a foreign language it makes it greatly difficult to have any reasonable in character or out of character conversations. At best it is just few odd words scattered here and there, and at worst you are required to use an outside translator to even understand basic level of communication. Some might argue that it creates a more immersive environment, but it could not be farther away from the truth. It creates barriers and conflicts, and breeds a sense of elitism based on a false notion of role-playing quality. Some take great pride in how difficult they are to understand and interact with - and it is of no intrinsic value. Such players are best to avoid, and therefore I feel the server would be better off by banning the use of foreign words, whether sprinkled here and there or in full sentences.
....

I see, anti-drommon post.

I think a better idea would be to treat insertion of "foreign" words as having low fluency in common.

Because the only reason why you'd insert a foreign word is when you don't know any alternatives to it.

Honestly, though, even better idea would be to update translator and allow it to mix multiple languages in a single text. Or at least common and non-common language.

scriver
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by scriver » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:06 pm

You can excempt words from translation by putting them in between apostrophes *like this*.

It only works if you don't have the automatic coloration setting on though.

Khazrak
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by Khazrak » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:11 pm

scriver wrote:You can excempt words from translation by putting them in between apostrophes *like this*.

It only works if you don't have the automatic coloration setting on though.
It's exactly what I do all the time, yeah. Talking on my deep gnome, I put names like "svirfneblin," "Callarduran," "Duergar," and "Drow/Dhaerow" in asterisks when speaking another language - or, say, a player's name, or what-have-you.

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Ambaryerno
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by Ambaryerno » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:29 pm

What if you want to RP a character that doesn't speak Common?

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aaron22
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by aaron22 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:39 pm

i think you are wrong SW. the feelings you are experiencing in my opinion are personal and if you feel that way about not knowing languages then feel free to express that in character and that is a world far more accurate reaction than what is typical. discrimination, prejudices and fear are commonplace in the 13th and 14th century. i think languages far from what you would know would be common in such a place as the sword coast. there would even likely be secret languages that would be shared by only a few. there should be more of this, not less.
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NegInfinity
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by NegInfinity » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:02 pm

scriver wrote:You can excempt words from translation by putting them in between apostrophes *like this*.

It only works if you don't have the automatic coloration setting on though.
This seriously requires a fix.
Ambaryerno wrote:What if you want to RP a character that doesn't speak Common?
I had a mute character once. Basically you emote everything your character does in a chat. And write notes. If your character can speak, but not common, you utilize language window for language your character does speak.
aaron22 wrote:i think you are wrong SW. the feelings you are experiencing in my opinion are personal
Also this.

Typically you can send a tell to people and ask what this or taht word means and they respond.
If you ask about a lot of words, they dial it down and switch to either full common or to full whatever language they were speaking (via langauge entry window).

chad878262
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by chad878262 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:10 pm

NegInfinity wrote:This seriously requires a fix.
No it doesn't. emotes are not in a language and should be seen regardless of the language spoken. If a player is using emotes to say something in common while speaking in another language that's not really the intended use, but so long as everyone understands what is going on in the RP I see no issue.
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Sun Wukong
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:24 pm

Khazrak wrote:(xas bwael ilharess)
(This bowl is of low resolution?)

Is that what you tried to say?
Khazrak wrote:(Also, all the Harebrained Schemes games set in the Shadowrun setting use the slang and they're pretty tight.)
I actually got all three games on this computer, and I never noticed any slang to be honest. I had not even heard of the setting before the games. In my opinion most of the slang words were from movies made in the 60's and 80's or easily derivable from the non-slang context that surrounded the few 'difficult' words. With drommon, it is just gibberish made up words.

I mean if drommon were slang instead of a gibberish language the following definitions would be spot on:
(Vendui) = (When driving under influence)
(Jaluk) = (German accent: Ja, have a look)
(Nau) = (Now)
(Kivvil) = (Kivi fruits are vile)
(Darthiir) = (Lets play darts here)
(Aluve) = (Aloevera)
(Malla) = (Malicious love)
(Dos) = (Microsoft Dos)
(Ussa) = (Us, United States of America)
(Del'heen) = (Damn, look at that hen)

I have some inkling of a feeling that my obvious slang definitions are not exactly what the proponents of Drommon gibberish would agree upon.
scriver wrote:For the sake of earnest discussion, please say that you are talking about drowspeak if that is what it's about.
L'entire ust post zhah wun ilythiiri telanth, 'zil zhah nindol comment.
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The entire first post is in drow speak, as is this comment.
Ambaryerno wrote:What if you want to RP a character that doesn't speak Common?
In game, there is a bar with many buttons, click on one that says 'voice entry' and it will reveal a list of possible languages. At character creation you can pick a backround trait called 'Foreigner' and it will grant you an extra language. Increasing intelligence will also grant you extra languages. You can even spend feats to acquire extra languages. But anyhow, once your character appears in Nexus, you get to choose languages, if you double click on one you get to read details about who and where it is spoken. If your character is native to Baldur's Gate or Western Heartlands in general, I think you should pick Chondathan.

This way, those who understand Chondathan, will understand your character speaking Chondathan, while otherwise they would be required to know some French or what not.

There is a better way to do it than sprinkling gibberish into the chat box.

aaron22 wrote:i think you are wrong SW.
We have a multitude of languages implemented in game, and there is no longer any need to sprinkle gibberish words.
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Khazrak
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by Khazrak » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:41 pm

I mean if drommon were slang instead of a gibberish language the following definitions would be spot on:
To be honest, Drow shouldn't even be a language. Per the books, Drow speak Undercommon and Elven; and Drow speech is just a mish-mash of both. Drow isn't listed as a language for them outside of NWN2 persistent world servers.

So yes, I think it should be considered a regional dialect / slang that borrows from elven and undercommon.
This seriously requires a fix.
Not really. It's very useful as it is. Let's say that I'm RPing with two people, one of whom speaks a language with me that the other doesn't. We're talking about the city and political climate concerning races that we're in - say, Rockrun and outsiders.

So here I am speaking in gnomish. I type the following:
*<I>Wyra flicked a glance back at the human, then focused on the other gnome again.</I>* "These outsiders are everywhere. I have seen as many *dhaerow* and surfacers as I have *svirfneblin.* This does not bode well, and I do not trust this..." *<I>She peered back at the human again, eyes narrowed.</I> "Paul."*
It appears to the player out of the loop as:
*Wyra flicked a glance back at the human, then focused on the other gnome again. "Blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah *dhaerow* blah blah blah blah blah *svirfneblin.* Blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah..." *She peered back at the human again, eyes narrowed. "Paul."*
And this is good. It allows me to let certain words that would be universal, like names (including poorly pronounced names) and races. It means that if an elf tells me they are Teu-tel-quessir, I can repeat those exact words in gnomish and everyone can understand I just said "teu-tel-quessir" even outside of gnomish speakers.

Khazrak
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Re: Ban the use of non-english languages

Unread post by Khazrak » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:44 pm

As to the topic itself:

I don't see this as entirely necessary, or feasibly enforced for that matter. Let Drow do their Drowspeech thing. Play a different race, and explicitly RP with others of your race in that language. Mock them in your language that they can't understand without casting Tongues. All's well!

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