Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

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Tanlaus
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by Tanlaus »

As someone who has been primarily playing in the UD lately I tend to fall on the side of not giving drow on the surface an RP out. Feels more immersive to me to be wary of venturing into
The surface to begin with.

In fact, I was in a drow group that was looting the ogre caves today and when someone suggested selling in Soubar several of us thought it was too risky. That sense of danger, to me, is more immersive.

Along with that there have been rumors of Black Archers actively looking to hunt drow on the surface recently... I think in response to a greater visible presence lately. But I’m not certain any of this is actually true and frankly would rather not know OOC. More fun to just find out IC. Anyway, it would make more sense to me, day if I was spotted outside of Soubar by a group of black archers, that they just shoot me and not talk to me about my intentions first.
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KOPOJIbPAKOB
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

Thank you for responses, guys! A common counter argument trend I see here is a logical fallacy that KoS ruling provides feeling of danger, suspense and hostile RP, while in fact one has nothing to do with another. The hostile RP envioronment feeling is provided by the surface players and their actions, as it should be. The only thing KoS actually provides is opportunities for non-roleplayed hostility, this is what this thread is about. Most if not all good roleplayers will never utilize KoS mechanics either way, they will always emote something rather than simply attacking, so I don't see a point of keeping the rules that only favor griefers.
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Diamore
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by Diamore »

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:24 am I see here is a logical fallacy that KoS ruling provides feeling of danger, suspense and hostile RP, while in fact one has nothing to do with another.
This is not an example of a logical fallacy. It's an example of an opinion.
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:24 am Most if not all good roleplayers will never utilize KoS mechanics either way, they will always emote something rather than simply attacking, so I don't see a point of keeping the rules that only favor griefers.
This is an example of a persuasive use of a logical fallacy. Specifically straw man or generalisation depending on your reading. eg. "only poor roleplayers would use the kos rules" or "all good roleplayers will never...".


I haven't yet seen a reason for a change. If players are playing their character sheets by the rules on the server this rule is mostly irrelevant. Do you have an alternative suggestion for a rule that would achieve the purposes of the existing rules?
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KOPOJIbPAKOB
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

Diamore wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:56 am
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:24 am I see here is a logical fallacy that KoS ruling provides feeling of danger, suspense and hostile RP, while in fact one has nothing to do with another.
This is not an example of a logical fallacy. It's an example of an opinion.
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:24 am Most if not all good roleplayers will never utilize KoS mechanics either way, they will always emote something rather than simply attacking, so I don't see a point of keeping the rules that only favor griefers.
This is an example of a persuasive use of a logical fallacy. Specifically straw man or generalisation depending on your reading. eg. "only poor roleplayers would use the kos rules" or "all good roleplayers will never..."
Good roleplayers emote their actions, KoS ruling allows you to start PvP without any emotes or words. I don't see how this thought is hard to embrace!
Diamore wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:56 amI haven't yet seen a reason for a change. If players are playing their character sheets by the rules on the server this rule is mostly irrelevant. Do you have an alternative suggestion for a rule that would achieve the purposes of the existing rules?
Suggestion of a ruling opening gates for griefing? Sorry, none.

Anyway, let's not derail it into what makes a RP'er good / bad and stay on topic!
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Druchii
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by Druchii »

These two rules together are silly in my view.

Have a role-play reason to be above or below, yet outside your home area - yet you can be attacked on sight by the opposing faction without RP. Cant think of anything more obviously anti-role-play then that.

What it should be is one or the other, and since this is NOT a PvP server but a Role play server, people should be role playing before any PvP takes place. The rule to keep, of the two, would be "have a reason to be there" as I see it since it promotes this and the point of the server overall.

RP-Outs dont have to be one party letting the other party waltz away, when you can easily role play chasing after them and driving them off but not catching them. I think the issue is people that like it are the ones who are far more interested in being able to just 'get the drop' and bypass the usual RP requirement.

Its a sad truth, though I am sure people reading this will find it very anecdotal, but the KoS rule has never fostered any healthy relationship between player bases in the decade that I've played on servers with this rule.
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Snarfy
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by Snarfy »

Druchii wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:42 am I think the issue is people that like it are the ones who are far more interested in being able to just 'get the drop' and bypass the usual RP requirement.

Its a sad truth, though I am sure people reading this will find it very anecdotal, but the KoS rule has never fostered any healthy relationship between player bases in the decade that I've played on servers with this rule.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't necessarily like the KoS rule so much as I strongly dislike the idea of surface/UD encounters resulting in implausible/immersion breaking RP, due to an OOC rule that allows either side to simply take an "out".

As much as I might agree with you on the KoS rule has never been a vehicle for healthy roleplay, it belive that it's a necessary deterrent to prevent players from engaging in consequence-free behavior.

"Have a valid RP reason" (to go to the surface) is a great idea in theory, but in practice.... I'm not even sure what a valid RP reason is at this point. Is it sitting around a tavern with some surfacers and having a pint? Is it trying to infiltrate a settlement? Kidnapp someone? Or maybe just have a midnight meet at the mushroom grove in Sharpteeth for some Eilistraeen kumbaya'ing? (yeah, my character witnessed one of those)

I get the feeling that more benign motivations qualify as "valid reasons" lately, and if that's the case, maybe having a valid RP reason isn't enough to go on(especially if there's no DMs around to quantify said reasonings).

** Late edit ** ... I should probably clarify something for Druchii, since they do not play on the surface:
midnight meet at the mushroom grove in Sharpteeth for some Eilistraeen kumbaya'ing
... four or five drow(a few unmasked), plus three non-drow cohorts, having a meeting exactly one transition away from a surface elf settlement. And... little old my elf, hiding in the bushes. Needless to say, he did not show himself, or start stabbing folks.
Last edited by Snarfy on Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Steve
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by Steve »

At most, mobs cry “KILL” as they attack on perception, no RP outs given.

I see an existing misunderstanding, in that UD beings are not considering all Surface beings monsters, and vice versa. Whether you like it or not, this is the 99.9% paradigm of the Forgotten Realms Sword Coast in this Dale Reckoning of this Server.

What appears to be happening here is calling KoS an OOC non-RP device, and then advocating for another OOC device that demands of Players to consider PCs somehow different than mobs (instead of the MOST IC thing one could do, which is to treat all Beings (mobs, NPCs & PCs) as equal, in-character. And when I mean equal, I mean to NOT differentiate that one has a Player behind it, and one doesn’t.

Another way of saying it is: my Surface being (PC) considers all beings from the Underdark as monsters (PC or NPC (mob)). And unless an actual Skills mechanic can be scripted where I can use Diplomacy or Intimidation against mobs in interactions, why should I be expected to treat PCs from the UD or the Surface any different, by “RPing” beforehand?

I think one should look at it like this: if you the Player have a Drow and you take them onto the Surface—which I think can be any RP reason you like without DM permission—you the player are essentially waving your right to an RP out, and actually, essentially agreeing to CvC in a post-Setting-to-Hostile moment, from the first footsteps out of the UD/UpD.

Conversely, Surface PCs are in the same KoS boat in the UD, but with Lore the way it is, once inside Sshamath, one is “safe” against KoS.

I can also say it another way: CvC IS role-play, and attacking on sight a being that is considered a monster in Canon Lore terms, IS my chosen Role-play. PvP griefing is against the Rules, and is also an OOC act.

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Diamore
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by Diamore »

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:29 am Suggestion of a ruling opening gates for griefing? Sorry, none.
Wow.

The rule is very, very obviously not designed to cause griefing. The rule dissuades accessing the surface by non-surface races, it creates an element of risk to any foray and it reflects the likely IC responses to such encounters. Feel free to suggest an alternative setup or rule that replaces these effects.

Griefing is actually very difficult to do using this specific rule. I would actually like to hear an example of such, anecdotal or imaginary even, that hinges on the existence of this rule. I have neither heard in game or seen on the forums anything regarding griefing from this rule.
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:29 am Anyway, let's not derail it into what makes a RP'er good / bad and stay on topic!
I hadn't brought this up. This is very clearly a point that is part of your own arguments made thus far. Your position so far being that this rule reflects bad roleplaying.
Steve wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:44 am I can also say it another way: CvC IS role-play, and attacking on sight a being that is considered a monster in Canon Lore terms, IS my chosen Role-play. PvP griefing is against the Rules, and is also an OOC act.
As suggested by Steve, this rule promotes in character reactions and decision making when approaching the opposing region (surface vs UD). Which would typically be called "good roleplaying".
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Snarfy
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by Snarfy »

Diamore wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:31 amI have neither heard in game or seen on the forums anything regarding griefing from this rule.
This is likely because it isn't happening much, if at all. Not to mention that a great many players seem to be ignorant when it comes to the griefing rules. Either that, or they are simply just using the term loosely, and to describe in-game behavior that rubs them the wrong way, but does not fall under the boundaries of "griefing" in the server rules.
Griefing
Do not intentionally disrupt or harass other players, either with mechanics or other means. This includes, but is not limited to, stealing from campfires/packhorses, exploiting summons to bypass PvP rules, or herding enemies to have them attack players.
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by yyj »

"Immersion breaking"

So of all the immersion breaking things that we have, the one that is most offensive to you is the rare drow you see on the surface?

We have sooooo many things against the setting but everyone has no problem saying "server lore" yet hypocritically they call out this specific thing when in one or two years Drizzt is supposed to visit Baldurs Gate (and no he didn't get lynched).
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by Snarfy »

yyj wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:09 pm So of all the immersion breaking things that we have, the one that is most offensive to you is the rare drow you see on the surface?
Not even remotely.

Also, it would be far more productive to this thread if you refrain from attempting to put words in peoples mouths, or making assumptions.
I'm quite capable of expressing my own opinions without your help. Thanks.
Last edited by Snarfy on Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sweetlikesplenda
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by sweetlikesplenda »

I think the concern that most people are expressing isn't that there will be a rare sighting, but that if the rules change there will be a flood of Drow on the surface. It is just human (Player) nature to explore ones new boundaries and then push them further (Which is why rules even have to be put in to place at all). Maybe at the moment there is only a rare sighting, because there are rules put in to place at the moment, the ones trying to be changed.
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by c2k »

Druchii wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:42 am
What it should be is one or the other, and since this is NOT a PvP server but a Role play server, people should be role playing before any PvP takes place. The rule to keep, of the two, would be "have a reason to be there" as I see it since it promotes this and the point of the server overall.
When it comes to the Drow, there was (and could still exist) a group that would go to the surface, create their own RP and force it on others, in order to force them into a PvP situation. So they do believe its a PvP server.

This isn't just a drow problem though. Anytime it comes to "Let's make a guild of monster races!!", it devolves into this.
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by Snarfy »

c2k wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:12 pm This isn't just a drow problem though. Anytime it comes to "Let's make a guild of monster races!!", it devolves into this.
Indeed, it has devolved into shenanigans before, and it still does to this day. A few nights ago, even(I wont go into details, but there was some really poor form displayed by a small group of players).
sweetlikesplenda wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:29 pm I think the concern that most people are expressing isn't that there will be a rare sighting, but that if the rules change there will be a flood of Drow on the surface. It is just human (Player) nature to explore ones new boundaries and then push them further (Which is why rules even have to be put in to place at all). Maybe at the moment there is only a rare sighting, because there are rules put in to place at the moment, the ones trying to be changed.
Thank you. It's a relief to see some players are able to grasp the implications of a rule change like this.

For the record, I personally, OOC'ly, do not really care that drow players want to come to the surface, or if they want to establish themselves there. My concern is that SOME, not all, of these players will find ways to circumvent, or even abuse the rules to do so(IE: Godmodding zones with NPC's, guards or otherwise). Obviously I'm also concerned about how drow on the surface is being portrayed within the current RP paradigm(IE: it all seems very cozy and accommodating, IMHO), but I'm trying to IC'ly work my way through it.

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So, some people here seem to be either unwilling or unable(?) to understand what we're talking about when it comes to impact on immersion. Let's see if I can clear up any misconceptions, using my earlier example of an actual in-game occurrence that I witnessed, and applying both the existing KoS rule VS the proposed PvP-out rule on how it might play out... BUT, based on RP occurring before-hand.

The Scene:
It's midnight at the mushroom grove in the woods, and a group of drow have gathered to... do whatever it is that drow do at mushroom groves on the surface... (?) ... however, at a nearby settlement not a half days journey away, surface elves become alerted to the presence of their dark-skinned cousins. Within a matter of moments, a group of surface elves rushes out to ambush their millennia long rivals...

Current KoS rules:
The surface elves surround the drow, clearly intending to end the perceived threat to their village, once and for all.
The drow are easily outnumbered by the surface elves, two to one, and the latter do not seem intent on giving their dark cousins any quarter...


The drow players/characters must now choose to do one of several things:
Fight - Arguably the least appealing of the options if dying/PvP loss is involved.
Flee - KoS rules or not, you're still allowed to run.
Attempt to parlay/negotiate - however unlikely this may seem at succeeding, and KoS rules or not, some players will RP it out... not many, but some.

Outcome:
If PVP ensues, the participants are not allowed to interact with each other for 24 hours.
Everyone involved can OOC'ly agree upon an RP outcome, but no-one is allowed to force an RP outcome on anyone elses character, regardless who the victor is.


Proposed PvP-out rules:
The surface elves surround the drow, clearly intending to end the perceived threat to their village, once and for all.
The drow have a surprise in store for their surface kin though... it's an ambush!
The surface elves are outnumbered by the drow, two to one, and the latter do not seem intent on giving their surface kin any quarter.
And yet, for whatever reason, the small army of drow decide to give the surface elves an ultimatum:
"Return to your settlement, with heads still attached, or fall here and now."


The elven players/characters must now choose to do one of several things:
Fight - Why would they? ESPECIALLY if dying/PVP loss is involved.
Flee - It's their PVP out, duh. The elves sulk off towards their village, flipping the bird back and mooning the drow as they leave.
Or attempt to parlay/negotiate - ... considering that the drow told them to leave or die, staying to talk(especially if smack-talk slips in there) might easily be construed as consenting to PVP.

Outcome:
Stalemate.
The drow can keep returning.
The elves can keep coming back too.
Whoever doesn't want to fight can just keep taking their PvP-out and walking away(flipping the bird/mooning are completely optional).


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, lets be honest. Which of these two options sounds more appealing in terms of immersion? Which one sounds more realistic?
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Re: Delete Kill-on-Sight rules

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

What RP out can be given to a non-flaky drow? At the same time, why a self aware drow while being on the surface be at any kind of discussion with surface characters such as elves, dwarves etc other than attacking or running away?

Even with KOS in place there have been many surface drow appearances that generated some good RP for everyone. I remember in my early days back in 2011 of a notoroious drow warlock hunting at troll claw ( i think one of pyros chars ), or Valshar and karond's BM. Cyrithe, Israe'Anna and many others who put some effort were able to interact with surface characters of different factions.

At the same time KOS seemed pretty straight forward when dealing with drow that try to sell gear outside the gates of the FAI under broad daylight, or when dealing with chars such as the coven of darkness etc

In a way, KOS keeps things real and even though in some cases there is no RP involved when the pvp incident takes places, there is always much RP in the aftermath. A drow appearance on the surface is a big event that usually gets discussed/RPed a lot.
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