The New Age Rules

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Blame The Rogue
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by Blame The Rogue »

ERP is not allowed. playing minors is not allowed

changing the minimum age of pcs from 18 or racial equivalent to 20, 21, 25, will change nothing. those breaking the above rules would still pretend to be whatever inappropriate age, engaging in whatever inappropriate behavior

what is needed is enforcement of existing rules. the rules were already fine, 18 or equivalent, no ERP. these rules just need to be enforced

it was stated above that this change was made to lessen work for dms, of which there are not enough of? if this is the case, then this needs to be addressed. why are there not enough dms? are not enough players applying? if so, why? are too many applications denied? if so, why?

do what is necessary to fully staff dm-side, which will allow for dms to enforce existing rules
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by Rhifox »

zhazz wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:40 am
DM SummerBreeze wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:52 pm Personally, I would propose this change as highlighted:
The minimum age for any PC is at least 20 years old or racial equivalent for all characters made. Any form of skirting the rule by use of vague or misleading wording or terminology to attempt to describe or insinuate a character as being physicially in appearance, or mentally underage is strictly forbidden and is considered breaking the character age rule. Breaking this rule is a considered a severe offense and can result in serious consequences.
I'm a bit on the fence about this. Characters with autism/Asperger's are fully functioning adults, but can be perceived as being mentally underage. I'd even argue that a decent proportion of the Faerûnian population could/would be diagnosed with such, if going my modern medicine standards. Mainly they will be found among wizard's apprentices, and craftsmen; considered savants within their professions. And that's even before considering adventurers.

It's a thankless task to draw the line, and there's likely no good answer. That being said, I will propose my own change.
The minimum age for any PC is at least 20 years old or racial equivalent for all characters made.

Any form of skirting this rule is considered a severe offense, and can result in serious consequences. This includes, but is not limited to: use of vague/misleading wording or terminology describing or insinuating a character as being physically or mentally younger.

Characters with mental/emotional deficiencies are allowed, but will be held to a higher standard. Savants, and characters with autism or Asperger's fall under this category.
Is it perfect? No. Because there is no perfect version. Is it better? I think so, yes.
I don't think that kind of exception is really necessary. Even if a character is written to be autistic, their level of autism should not be to the degree that their RP would be bypassing underaged character rules, or else that'd be another thing DMs would have to police.
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

All facts and reasonable arguments were brought up before me. A disruptive, immersion breaking rule. Roleplayers lose experience, rule breakers will just headcanon any age they prefer.

What I seriously don't understand is DM team's adamant position about it. My first post in the thread didn't contain any strong arguments against because I knew everyone will be against, and so it happened. Not counting DMs, 100% of the respondents voted against it. It's not a controversial change, not even wildly controversial, it's a hard "No" from the community.

It doesn't matter what good intents DM team had in mind, this thread speaks for itself. When the whole community votes against, all you can do is acknowledge this mistake and revoke the disruptive change. Instead, the DM team starts defending the change, riling up the disagreeing people even more by the "We know better than you" and "We can't tell why, but it's for your good" arguments. You stand against the majority of the server, lobbying the change that potentially reduces your workload at the expense of RP experience of the whole server.


p.s. I don't have anything against the DMs personally, you are doing a lot of great things at the same time (take another ruling about polymorph and pvp). But this particular change is imho a huge mistake that is not too late to fix.
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by DaloLorn »

yyj wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:07 pmI think in the long run this ruling is better and disagreeing is not being rude. It's just pointing out how this rule isn't causing a problem directly for most people that already play on the server.

I play a young PC that has been apparently grandfathered and I wouldn't mind people telling me she has to be 25 years old now, this barely affects my roleplay at all and I cannot see this affection anyone else's negatively.
At the risk of being excessively blunt: That's your flawed perception, not objective reality.

To be clear: During my time on BG, I have never made any PCs that weren't at least a year or two above their racial default (or a decade or two, for elves), because I didn't feel comfortable making them quite that young when I had a few years on each of them.

Regardless, some of my most inexperienced PCs have been in the 19-20 range (or racial equivalent), as their motives for venturing out to the Sword Coast seemed fundamentally incompatible with any greater age:
  • Kana Tannard, the Helmite paladin wannabe who had wanted to leave her village and become a paladin since she was a little girl, started out as a 19-year-old fighter.
  • Caili Wender, the sheltered Waterdhavian merchant's daughter trying to get out of her parents' shadow, was 20 years old at character creation.
  • Berred Notter, the physically inept gold-blooded paladin of Tamara seeking to claim his heritage, was created as a 19-year-old.
  • Pixanie, the perpetually oblivious feytouched warlock, was also created as a 19-year-old. Her backstory never fully crystallized before my hiatus, but a popular theory was that she was raised by fey as part of a pact made by one or both of her parents, before finally being dumped onto the Sword Coast when she came of age. (Not that she had a clue why or what happened. Due to her terribly stunted mental development, her characterization is probably the closest I've come to being part of the issue these rule changes are trying uselessly to correct, but I would have to question the sanity of any PC that expressed any serious romantic interest in the Avatar of Accidental Mayhem. :lol:)
Several other human and half-elven PCs were kept closer to my real age (and, consequently, remain definitely grandfathered) both because it simplified their characterization and because it justified their lack of experience in their chosen professions:
  • Nelee Aseph, the nervous wreck that is my Amnian air genasi Silverstar-in-training, is 23. This helps justify her quirk of being a complete, gibbering mess, as she still doubts any shred of her competence that she can't attribute to Selune.
  • Shali Menner, my first PC, the brass-blooded farmgirl-turned-adventurer, could realistically be any age. However, her initial enthusiasm to become a master sorceress was surely reinforced by her relatively tender age of 22. (Really, considering some comments throughout this thread, and the fact that the SRD puts sorcerers in the 16-19 range, she might've started out too old... but it works a little better when you consider the influence her draconic blood might have had once it started waking up.)
  • Amaetha Saelith, the wood elven Cormyrian druidess who came to the Sword Coast to help with the devil invasion at Dragonspear, was only 131, and propelled more by her desire to repel the devils than any real competence on her part.
  • Vilmar Dall, the half-elven Waterdhavian archmage, could realistically be any age too... except for his limited initial proficiency, and the fact that he managed to accidentally torch his deceased master's dwelling at the age of 22.
  • Ditto for Jando Flomen, the half-elven swashbuckler from I forget exactly where. He was 23 at character creation, and fairly inexperienced for someone who had supposedly spent the bulk of his adult and adolescent life as... a pirate or something. I don't remember the details.
  • Cald Hanicen, the half-elven ranger from not-sure-I-ever-even-specified-where, was also 23, and also surprisingly inept for his years of experience.
  • Hugishnak Tenck, the boisterous half-orcish shaman/barbarian... probably had no real need nor justification to be 24. But he was, so he's technically grandfathered too. (On the other hand, being a half-orc, this technically puts him in his thirties or forties. :lol:
  • Fon Frihzes, the mad water genasi frostmage, may technically be 25, but as I recall, genasi have a higher default age than humans. Admittedly, he's possibly in the "doesn't need to be that young" camp, but he really ought to have had more starting levels if he were any older.
  • Before going on hiatus, I had toyed with the notion of fabricating an excuse to convert an NPC I'd grown fond of into a low-level PC. Said NPC was a 21-year-old street thief from Zazesspur who happened to get mixed up in an offscreen DM campaign before promptly growing on DM and player alike; if it weren't for the fact that I'd already set everything up for her eventual arrival on the server (going as far as to sneak her into a custom starting position, because plot hooks), I would now have to retcon nearly a year's worth of characterization on the technicality that she wasn't in the BG vault yet. That being said, I'm not sure her old friend is still actively being played, so it reduces the amount of mileage I could get out of that concept.

    (On a sidenote: Man, that campaign was fun. In trying to verify her age, I got treated to a showreel of many of our best moments and read through them for hours... I wanna do that again sometime. Half a year since it wrapped up, and it's still the single best D&D experience I've ever had. :()
Although I've thoroughly derailed my attempt at writing this post, I think my point was supposed to be that a lot of legitimate characters don't work with the new age limits. Even if we decide to completely retcon all established lore and say that people aren't treated as adults until their twenties (when the PnP minimum for a human is 16, not the 15 that keeps getting thrown up), 25 would not work for anyone trying to roleplay their initial lack of experience. (And let's face it, all of my most compelling characters have consistently been the inexperienced youngsters; who here remembers Siril? Ollandor? Mainda? Silia? Ilhara's the oldest viable character I've had, and I've wondered for a while if ~220 years might have unnecessarily overshot my target of "probably in her late twenties or early thirties".)
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:27 am All facts and reasonable arguments were brought up before me. A disruptive, immersion breaking rule. Roleplayers lose experience, rule breakers will just headcanon any age they prefer.

What I seriously don't understand is DM team's adamant position about it. My first post in the thread didn't contain any strong arguments against because I knew everyone will be against, and so it happened. Not counting DMs, 100% of the respondents voted against it. It's not a controversial change, not even wildly controversial, it's a hard "No" from the community.

It doesn't matter what good intents DM team had in mind, this thread speaks for itself. When the whole community votes against, all you can do is acknowledge this mistake and revoke the disruptive change. Instead, the DM team starts defending the change, riling up the disagreeing people even more by the "We know better than you" and "We can't tell why, but it's for your good" arguments. You stand against the majority of the server, lobbying the change that potentially reduces your workload at the expense of RP experience of the whole server.


p.s. I don't have anything against the DMs personally, you are doing a lot of great things at the same time (take another ruling about polymorph and pvp). But this particular change is imho a huge mistake that is not too late to fix.
Shockingly, there actually are a few non-DMs trying to support this change, as evidenced by the post I started replying to last night.

The worst part? The justification given for this change, the one you mention in your post? It doesn't make a lick of sense.

I cannot for a moment imagine that this will reduce the DMs' workload. Unless things took a drastic (I really cannot emphasize this word enough) turn for the worse since my departure from the team, the volume of people who should now be expected to defend themselves against accusations of illegally playing sub-25 PCs will far outweigh the volume of people who currently need to be policed, with a near-zero effect on the group they were actually targeting.

There's bound to be a lot of grandfathered PCs, and without some kind of publicly available database to track them, any individual player would be well within their rights to report a large swath of them. (Case in point, me and my zillion grandfathered kids. :lol: Not that their age is often explicitly discussed, beyond a vague reference to being in their early twenties for those of them who have bios, or the one time Shali RPed her birthday.)
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by Ariella »

To be honest, this ruling has no impact whatsoever on my role play, frankly, you are always going to have people trying to skirt the rules be the starting age 18 - 20 - 25 or whatever. This change is also next to impossible to enforce, people will just say their character was made before the deadline which is hard to disprove.
Blame The Rogue wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:46 am ERP is not allowed. playing minors is not allowed

changing the minimum age of pcs from 18 or racial equivalent to 20, 21, 25, will change nothing. those breaking the above rules would still pretend to be whatever inappropriate age, engaging in whatever inappropriate behavior

what is needed is enforcement of existing rules. the rules were already fine, 18 or equivalent, no ERP. these rules just need to be enforced
Although I would use different wording this sums up my opinion. If you feel that too much DM time is being wasted on this then set a hard and fast punishment that can be applied without a long-winded discussion DM side. Personally, I favor the three-strikes warning, temporary ban, permanent ban. Making a new ruling to save DM time enforcing an old ruling is just not an effective solution, all your doing is changing the rule they have to waste time enforcing.
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Ariella wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:15 amMaking a new ruling to save DM time enforcing an old ruling is just not an effective solution, all your doing is changing the rule they have to waste time enforcing.
Worse - they're changing it to something that requires more enforcement time.
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by Hoihe »

Rhifox wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:51 am
zhazz wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:40 am
DM SummerBreeze wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:52 pm Personally, I would propose this change as highlighted:

I'm a bit on the fence about this. Characters with autism/Asperger's are fully functioning adults, but can be perceived as being mentally underage. I'd even argue that a decent proportion of the Faerûnian population could/would be diagnosed with such, if going my modern medicine standards. Mainly they will be found among wizard's apprentices, and craftsmen; considered savants within their professions. And that's even before considering adventurers.

It's a thankless task to draw the line, and there's likely no good answer. That being said, I will propose my own change.
The minimum age for any PC is at least 20 years old or racial equivalent for all characters made.

Any form of skirting this rule is considered a severe offense, and can result in serious consequences. This includes, but is not limited to: use of vague/misleading wording or terminology describing or insinuating a character as being physically or mentally younger.

Characters with mental/emotional deficiencies are allowed, but will be held to a higher standard. Savants, and characters with autism or Asperger's fall under this category.
Is it perfect? No. Because there is no perfect version. Is it better? I think so, yes.
I don't think that kind of exception is really necessary. Even if a character is written to be autistic, their level of autism should not be to the degree that their RP would be bypassing underaged character rules, or else that'd be another thing DMs would have to police.
Issue in terms of autism's effrcts on apparent maturity would be cultural expectations.

Is emotional dysregulation (reacting irrationally to things other peoplr are stoic/reserved about) acting underage? We have people calling those with strong emotional intensity (especially when combined with a special focus) childish. After all, (especially for men, but sometimes for women too) caring about things and being highly emotional is childish!

Is naivety/flawed theory of mind childish? One aspect of the spectrum tends to frequently leave autistic people who hae been sheltered from trauma incredibly naive - due to expecting everyone else to share their views and the inherent moral inflexibility (study indicates people with ASD won't engage in practices that bring them extra money if it goes against personal moral code. The study presented this as a flaw, not virtue -_-. But ye, if you think others are like you and you wouldnt hurt others ever....). Naivete and being easily scammed/fooled is considered childish.

Are meltdowns from sensory overload considered childish? The public at large often considers suffering ASd people being overwhelmed by noise/touch/textured to be tantrumming like a child. Doed a character verging on breakdowns in noisy crowds and excusing themselves childish? According to people in my country - yes.

In fact, cultural expectations. Merely being open and honest about your emotions is considered childish in rural hungary even for women.

Also - hyperempathy: feeling emotionally overwhelmed when hearing news, watching a play, reading a book due to immersing too deep - again, people consider this childish and immature.

Special interests and executive dysfunction - some consider focusing a "creepy" amount into learning and engaging some niche matter to be immature as you are not focusing on real life. Say, a PC that is obsessed with dragons but not with intent to slay them. Combined with ED, and doing it to exclusion of responsibilities - is often considered highly immature and childish.



While i feel no sane person with a lick of empathy would consider any of the above signs of immaturity and childishness... overwhelming global opinions do and even old school psychiatrists who engage in ABA rather than somethig that does more than hides these symptoms.



edit: tbh by rural hungarian standards any good aligned character would br childish and immature. Only children think they can imptove the world! Only children display emotiond beyond being angry and desire for vodka/pálinka! Only children can form friendships with the gender they have attraction for! Only children have a desire to eliminate suffering, surely when they grow up they'll grow out of it!
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by Rhifox »

DaloLorn wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:11 am (when the PnP minimum for a human is 16, not the 15 that keeps getting thrown up)
15 is stated to be the age adulthood starts for humans. 16 is the youngest age a human PC can actually be, however, because of adding class training times on top of that (+1d4 years for barbarians, rogues, and sorcerers, +1d6 for bards, fighters, paladins, and rangers, and +2d6 for clerics, druids, monks, and wizards).

My use of 15 in the thread has been referring to in-universe age of majority, rather than the youngest age a PC can be.
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Rhifox wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:28 am
DaloLorn wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:11 am (when the PnP minimum for a human is 16, not the 15 that keeps getting thrown up)
15 is stated to be the age adulthood starts for humans. 16 is the youngest age a human PC can actually be, however, because of adding class training times on top of that (+1d4 years for barbarians, rogues, and sorcerers, +1d6 for bards, fighters, paladins, and rangers, and +2d6 for clerics, druids, monks, and wizards).

My use of 15 in the thread has been referring to in-universe age of majority, rather than the youngest age a PC can be.
Ah, fair enough! :)
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by kleomenes »

DM SummerBreeze wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm An honest question here: How often does your characters age even get brought up in RP? I know for me personally, the answer is almost never, so rarely that I often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that. I personally find it difficult to understand the fixation on this honestly rather arbitrary number when it comes down to how much it actually effects play on the server for the vast majority.
Every time I play a character their prior life experience in terms of background and in terms of IG play has an impact upon how they react and develop. So "every time I log in" is the answer. I'd go further and say that if life experiences don't impact a character then its objectively a less interesting and enriched character - at least to me. Character depth is a thing, after all, and leads to a more immersive and rewarding experience.

I want to say this as respectfully as possible, but I struggle to understand a position where the huge gulf between playing a PC that is wet behind the ears at 20 and one that is well into their prime and making their way in the world at 25 can be glossed over as an insignificant change, in terms of writing a character. Mechanically it has no impact, but this is an RP server, if a medium RP one, and this is a huge restriction on RP archetypes.

As I said before the tools are already at the DM teams hands to deal with these issues swiftly. But a clarification of the text would be good, and your proposal below looks good to me, with one proposed addition:
DM SummerBreeze wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:52 pm Personally, I would propose this change as highlighted:
PG-13 Content
All players must be 13 years of age or older to play on Baldur's Gate: The Sword Coast Chronicles.

Beyond that, though, this server, the forums, and any interactions within them should be the equivalent of PG-13/Teen at most. No violations of this rule, not even within the privacy of an inn room or guild hall. This includes, but is not limited to, excessive vulgarity, gratuitous violence/torture, graphic/extended sexual situations, and explicitly or implicitly sexualizing any characters under the age of 18 or racial equivalent in age (this extends to characters pretending to to be under the age of 18 for any reason).

Pregnancies are strictly forbidden unless directly supervised by the DM team and approved in advance. Any pregnancies are a form of "retiring" a PC for the duration, and resulting children are NOT to be roleplayed or represented in game.

The minimum age for any PC is at least 20 years old or racial equivalent for all characters made. Any form of skirting the rule by use of vague or misleading wording or terminology to attempt to describe or insinuate a character as being physicially in appearance, or mentally underage is strictly forbidden and is considered breaking the character age rule. Breaking this rule is a considered a severe offense and can result in serious consequences.

----


Unusual Characters
Every PC must be a legal adult (at least 20 years of age for humans or the racial equivalent for nonhumans). No exceptions except as outlined in the rules on the PG-13 content for the server.


----



– Content = Teen
– The Server, Forum and all interactions are to be rated Teen or below. ERP/sexual encounters (other than fade to black scenes), graphic or extended nudity, gratuitous violence and torture, and especially rape or miscarriage are strictly prohibited. Pregnancies are forbidden unless directly supervised by the DM team and approved in advance. Any pregnancies are a form of "retiring" a PC for the duration, and resulting children are NOT to be roleplayed or represented in game. The minimum age for any PC is 20 years old or racial equivalent except as outlined in the rules on the PG-13 content for the server.
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Re: The New Age Rules

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kleomenes wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:13 am
DM SummerBreeze wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm An honest question here: How often does your characters age even get brought up in RP? I know for me personally, the answer is almost never, so rarely that I often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that. I personally find it difficult to understand the fixation on this honestly rather arbitrary number when it comes down to how much it actually effects play on the server for the vast majority.
Every time I play a character their prior life experience in terms of background and in terms of IG play has an impact upon how they react and develop. So "every time I log in" is the answer. I'd go further and say that if life experiences don't impact a character then its objectively a less interesting and enriched character - at least to me. Character depth is a thing, after all, and leads to a more immersive and rewarding experience.

I want to say this as respectfully as possible, but I struggle to understand a position where the huge gulf between playing a PC that is wet behind the ears at 20 and one that is well into their prime and making their way in the world at 25 can be glossed over as an insignificant change, in terms of writing a character. Mechanically it has no impact, but this is an RP server, if a medium RP one, and this is a huge restriction on RP archetypes.
I believe this excerpt here may explain it quite easily (emphasis mine):
DM SummerBreeze wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pmI often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that.
"Wet behind the ears" doesn't seem to even register as a valid option. I find it a little surprising, actually, considering the popularity of stories nowadays where the protagonist is thrown into a world they had little to no prior familiarity with...

Granted, our PCs aren't literally thrown into an unknown world, but there's definitely a serious transitional period between whatever's in their backstory and the adventuring lives they're about to have.
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by khaevil »

kleomenes wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:13 am
DM SummerBreeze wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm An honest question here: How often does your characters age even get brought up in RP? I know for me personally, the answer is almost never, so rarely that I often don't even assign my characters an exact age and just play them as "Adult" or "Older man/woman" and leave it at that. I personally find it difficult to understand the fixation on this honestly rather arbitrary number when it comes down to how much it actually effects play on the server for the vast majority.
Every time I play a character their prior life experience in terms of background and in terms of IG play has an impact upon how they react and develop. So "every time I log in" is the answer. I'd go further and say that if life experiences don't impact a character then its objectively a less interesting and enriched character - at least to me. Character depth is a thing, after all, and leads to a more immersive and rewarding experience.
I'll amend my previous response to specify that nobody has ever asked about my age. I don't play my characters like they have to share their life story with every person they meet as RP fodder, I used it to determine their personality. Half my characters have some dark past and will just lie or be dodgy if asked, so it'll never come up in random conversation. But, I start the backstory before I start putting down numbers because to me that backstory is the most important part of the character, not those numbers. I always go through the Forgotten Realms timeline to see what events in the setting might have shaped the character. Exact birth year isn't usually crucial, though it is for my most recent character and there are cases where the precise day matters. Age may be the most important stat that needs to be considered.
Last edited by khaevil on Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by Kitunenotsume »

I am replying here for the purposes of establishing community consensus and documenting opinion.

The change in question appears to be intended to reduce staff overhead by implementing a change that will necessarily increase administrative reporting and staff adjudication to make it functional.

If the intended result is to reduce a behavior, it would appear more effective to apply the more consistent and severe punitive action for violations of existing rules. If the concern is that bad-actors will claim defense in ambiguity, it should be the responsibility of the individual to clarify their position relative to the collective, not by adjusting the collective relative to the individual.

Which is to say: It is a responsibility of the player to know the rules, and that ignorance is not a defense (ref. the numerous ingame and forum signage). Every player is already culpable to said rules, which already included restrictions on age and inappropriate behavior. In the event of a violation, a staunch defense of ambiguity is effectively admission of either ignorance (and thereby ineffective), or both knowledge of the rules and intent to pervert them, and should be addressed as such.


If the instigating concern is regarding offence to sensibility, we have had conversations elsewhere regarding reasonable domain for the limits and expectation of appropriate RP and how they apply to the intended PG-13 content rating.


On a more personal note, regarding specific character age, I am in the camp where it fundamentally defines a character's RP, even if the number specifically is not discussed.
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FallingStar
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by FallingStar »

The DMs are going to waste a lot more time now vetting the creation date of every 18-24 year old character that shows up.

The argument that it's more convenient for the staff's time allocation is moot.
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Planehopper
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Re: The New Age Rules

Unread post by Planehopper »

Kitunenotsume wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:49 am
Which is to say: It is a responsibility of the player to know the rules, and that ignorance is not a defense (ref. the numerous ingame and forum signage). Every player is already culpable to said rules, which already included restrictions on age and inappropriate behavior. In the event of a violation, a staunch defense of ambiguity is effectively admission of either ignorance (and thereby ineffective), or both knowledge of the rules and intent to pervert them, and should be addressed as such.
This is the crux of it for me. I understand action may have been taken, but if the concern is continued breaking of already-estsblished rules, the answer is the hammer, not more red tape. People who violate rules won't care about further restrictions - they didn't care about the original one. It only serves to make the rest of us adjust.
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