2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

The "Year of the Crown" Campaign

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DM Golem
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Re: 2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

Unread post by DM Golem »

MopKnight wrote:I should also note I was actually interested in hearing the DMs counterpoints on this :)
We can happily provide them, but we don't want to stymie discussion or make people feel they cannot raise concerns because they have already been "dealt with" by a DM in this thread.

Also it should be understood that individual DMs do not post for the team in such discussions, so we actually have to think about a DM team response (Or just post as individual DMs)
DM Dialectic
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Re: 2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

Unread post by DM Dialectic »

MopKnight wrote:I should also note I was actually interested in hearing the DMs counterpoints on this :)
This is probably better for a different thread or at the end of this one (if there is a clear end) for the reasons HDM Golem stated, so I and other DMs will not be commenting back at this time here in response to specific player feedback. Please keep the feedback coming everyone! It is very helpful player feedback and the tone so far has been very constructive, which is the best way to get feedback like this as it helps our team to improve going forward!
Bassman
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Re: 2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

Unread post by Bassman »

A few points to be made as well. The War council would have been created exactly as it was, for good or bad. As I see it, The Dukes would have called upon the known good factions to be a part of the council. As far as the Politicing and slow decision making of the War council. I would point out that everyone look at their own governments where ever they live, does anything get done quickly? Couple that with the fact, and this is just to be fair. A lot of the time the appearance of taking to much time, was in fact the Council waiting for a DM's ruling or Scouting reports, or something had been put into place but the PM's got lost in the DM's In boxes. As this did happen a few times. I would say the latter is no ones fault, it does happen with the massive amounts of PM's the DM's do get. As far as entry into the Council, this was placed in the Council's hands and was at their descretion, and each was voted on as they were presented. So I would encourage people not to get to picky with their criticisms, as there were a lot of liberties taken by many factions and guilds. And even some by the DM staff. The Main question is, did you have fun? Did the experience anger you at times and others fill you with satisfaction? Did you at times find yourself saying "what the Hell"? And other times saying "oh thats why". I get the feeling that with most of the players here the answer would be yes to all accounts!

Mission accomplished then!
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Invoker
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Re: 2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

Unread post by Invoker »

Quoted from the feedback I have already given:
Undying (pardon the pun...) gratitude to the architects and executors of this immense campaign. Above and beyond anything that could be expected or demanded: (mainly, but not exclusively!) DM Bloodlust, DM Dialectic, DM Golem, DM Theophanies in alphabetical order, displayed incredible commitment and DMing skills, as well as professional-level organization. You have every right to be proud of this outstanding achievement.

Very special thanks to DM Bloodlust for creating and conducting what I believe to be the most massive of all campaigns that ever were as far as NWN2 is concerned. Revolutionized timeline management, complexity, information value, combat scale & challenge, level of devastation and player involvement, visual experience...and incredible number of events, to boot. I have never seen such a manic attention for every possible detail, even though I have been lucky enough to take part in wondrous events created by fantastic DMs over the years (DEFINITELY including the aforementioned ones, without whose splendid ideas that intrigued me to the core, Kael would not even exist anymore).

As a player, I am enormously grateful. As a former DM, I am awestruck. And as a NWN enthusiast, I am proud to have been a small part of this.
-) COMPLEX STORYLINE: well thought out, complex storylines and amazing NPC backgrounds and developments are absolutely fantastc The sheer possibilities this offers to all guilds and lone players alike to carve themselves a slice of it are the beating heart of an RP server. However, you need many more than 1 fully committed DM and a handful more assisting him to pull it off, otherwise it becomes immediately exclusive: players and/or entire factions immediately get cut off just for lack of DM resources.

-) TIMELINE MANAGEMENT: this new system for planning and executing events, together with player cap and "can't be everywhere at all times" rules are outstanding additions to the server, and need to be enforced in the future (even more firmly, if possible).

-) AMOUNT OF EVENTS: Having this many events is fantastic for the server. Just look at the population spikes, despite DDOS attacks and whatnot. I have never seen a DM more active than Bloodlust: I would never have been able to do half of what he did. However, this staggering amount of work cannot be demanded to a lone DM and a few brave others trying to help him as much as they can. Many more DMs need to take up a small amount of work, say, one or two events per week/two weeks, and meet the event cap in order to organically involve all factions and lone players interested alike.

-) INFORMATION VALUE: I have rarely seen a campaign where information was so hard to come by, and so important. This is great for the plot overall, but it can exclude the vast majority of players from the RP in and of itself. In such a complicated situation, there should be a forum thread "new" players can refer to with an idea of "the road thus far", at least what's overtly known or believed. Something to start with. From there, they would be able to begin their RP and PM the DMs with their ideas on how to go on. The DMs. Not 2 or 3: many. Otherwise, DMs (even excellent ones, like those in question) are overwhelmed and people get ignored.

-) COMBAT SCALE & CHALLENGE: the DMs showed mechanical competence, and the battles were some of the best fun I've ever had with the game. Challenging to the breaking point, with minimal lag only in the events with a player cap, which made legendary plays possible, to my great joy. Too many players meant usually worsening the experience, as is well known, but to avoid that we need to split events. So again, a few more DMs involved in order to schedule additional events.

-) VISUAL EXPERIENCE: absolutely outstanding. I didn't know it could get to this level of excellence. Very, very nicely done.

-) PLAYER INVOLVEMENT: lots of players and guilds of every kind have been involved with, according to me, excellent results. A sign the DMs are very skilled planners and storytellers. I feel Thids' pain, though, and I think that, too, would be a problem easily solved sharing the workload more evenly across the DM team.

-) A PERSONAL NOTE: Personally speaking, I don't care about DMs saying (or implying) characters are weakling and nobodies (sorry folks :D). I consider PCs some of the most powerful individuals in the world. I play for campaigns like these. The enemies like the Blight are my enemies. I like situations that call for MY presence. If something can be solved by literally anyone showing up in my stead (as in: not a hero, a PC), then I don't see why my character should bother with that crap, unless he literally stumbles upon it, or he feels the need to rip the heart out of the unfortunate targets. Situations like this one give me motivation to play.

Conversely, the good Flaming Fist commander of ten that tries to order me around just acts like a magnet for my death spells. I don't like NPCs placed over PCs. I like PCs in control, I like when they are more powerful than NPCs, I like when they handle the situation and take decisions, and I like when they take responsibility for their failures. I like when they die, and stay dead. I like DMs that are fair all along, and don't try to hand you a win, save you or kill you. I enjoyed it immensely when Bloodlust thought (and his NPCs kind of mirrored his beliefs...) we were dead and lost in some of his events, and some crazy plays turned the tide, making us emerge victorious. No NPC rushed in to save us, and we didn't face weak opposition: all was in play, we were down under, and we found within us the resources to beat seemingly impossible odds and come up on top. Great storytelling and great conflicts become truly memorable when you maximize the uncertainty.

-) CONCLUSION: Almost everything I noted above was great in my opinion, and the flaws could be compensated by more DMs actively participating to the metaplot, thus enabling more PC voices to be heard and acted upon, and less NPC "Deus ex Machina" situations. Put an event cap to be met for DMs: if one can't meet it for a time that isn't "I am traveling for the week" or "I am off this month", then they have to retire and return when they can. This, of course, excludes HDM and CC, since they have additional duties that get in the way of "field" activities.

More lasting consequences for deaths should also be pushed, at least when it's not purely due to technical nature (DM notices he royally screwed up, the server froze for 2 mins causing TPK and the likes): if someone is not "permakilled", it doesn't mean he/she is in condition to fight in the next battle, or in the entire campaign, for instance.

Thank you for reading, and for DMing.

Happy RPing everyone.
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But you will lose that food if you don't meet all their demands
And loyal is the soldier that gets slaughtered with the lambs
Examining the blueprints got you questioning the plans
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TarnishedSoul
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Re: 2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

Unread post by TarnishedSoul »

Asmodea and MopKnight nicely covered most everything that I would say, but I'll offer my own feedback as someone who joined the fun near the end.

►Information Hoarding◄

There's a distinct divide between the "old" and the "new," and speaking as someone who was / is on the "new" side of things, trying to discern what was even happening - much less know the details - was an effort in sheer frustration. Even when my PC encountered a large conglomeration of PCs in a heavily trafficked area, it was difficult to figure out what was taking place.

►Party Chat◄

Please do not request that groups use party chat while they are still in public (non-event) places. When my PC was near the aforementioned group trying to puzzle out what was happening, her hopes was quickly dashed when everyone switched to Party Chat. There were twenty heavily armored, warded, and silent people standing in the Eastern Farmlands. Eventually, my inquisitive PC left the area, because there was nothing else for her to do.

►Event Hoarding◄

To me, as someone who wanted and tried to get involved, and who even had two weeks of daily game time during the holidays, there was nothing more disheartening than to play, and play, and play in hopes of getting a scrap of something only to watch a high-level, largely inactive PC log online and go straight to the front of the line in order to save the day. Again, see "old" versus "new." I work, so I can't play but a few hours every evening and then on the weekends, but I played enough to know that a few PCs simply crawled out of the woodwork in order to be in events. Since some events were capped for number of players, and this capping system will likely continue, this means that a spot is denied to someone active in favor of the inactive but better known PC.

Given that events are / will be capped for players, I'm also not a fan of the fact that players can be in all events as long as they're on separate PCs. Let others have an opportunity to participate without having to worry that Event Hero One is going to switch to their alt and become Event Hero Two, too.

►The Kiddie Table◄

I had the opportunity to participate in the final siege within Baldur's Gate, and I was actually pleased and amazed that something was available for the sub-epics. A small group of lower level PCs were supposed to pick off the undead stragglers and keep the docks clear, and for a while, that is exactly what we did! It was fun, and we felt that we were legitimately helping the cause while the usual heroes were saving the day in another district.

But then the higher levels were told to come our way, and that was the end of the IC sense of accomplishment. It's hard to feel like you're making a difference when your piddly arrow is consumed in a flash of IGMS. I don't fault the higher level folks; they did what they would do in the situation, and one day that's what I'll do, too. In the future, though, please try to keep in mind that the efforts of lower levels will get trampled when you add epics to the mix. Try to keep a kiddie table available so that the lowbies can still have some fun.

I have to reiterate that Asmodea and MopKnight eloquently said the bulk of what else I'd have included, so feel free to re-read their posts and know that I agree with them.

All in all, I didn't really feel involved in the metaplot aside from showing up to a couple massive events. It is my hope that this year will provide a better opportunity for a wider range of PCs to be included.
Atlas
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Unread post by Atlas »

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Last edited by Atlas on Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
Character Profile and The Battles of Sir Amalric of Germont aka Sir Arkaine Halforken Link:
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Uther3867
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Re: 2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

Unread post by Uther3867 »

Brutal and honest opinion

I HATE RAILROADS PERSONALLY

feeling like there's only one possible play and outcome, also i think how the puzzels were awesome but it's on the players what they did with them

i think in the future we need a bit more open dynamic endings then a railroad.. also if there's going to be a use of topographics that we aren't privy as players rightly to if that could be added to the reports it would help people understand it more i thought the troll claws were like ravines and high mesa's like the in game map suggested so topographic summires ooc would help alot

the only other issue i had with the whole thing is people in the game not wanting to do fourm RP yeah you don't get points for it ((i'm still missing 1000 from Bloodlust for notes a while back but i'm not pushing for it lol)) but it's not on the dm's to force it but as players i think we should embrace all avenues of communication pm's and fourm posts are easily submit able as evidence and such and good to relay information through we don't have to meet every other day to summarize
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Tsidkenu
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Re: 2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

The one thing I forgot which I felt could have been handled a bit better was what I felt to have been the exploitation of the Teleport spell, mostly by NPCs, during this campaign. I have highlighted in the spell description below my key gripe here:
Teleport
Caster Level(s): Wiz / Sorc 5
School: Conjuration (Teleportation)
Components: Verbal
Range: Personal and touch
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)

This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination (interplanar travel not possible)

You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth.
Now I can understand the Netherese army having some capability of teleporting troops around assuming they had a significant number of level 9+ lich wizards to do so. But when I read of whole armies or forces of 20+ being zipped around I just wanted to facepalm. Even Larloch himself as a PnP level 32 wizard cannot teleport more than 10 medium-sized individuals! And those who teleport must accompany their teleportees, so in the sake of the teleportation strikes on Baldur's Gate, each group would be considered almost a suicide mission for the lich teleporter unless they had two preparations of the spell, one for getting in and abandoning the strike force with another to get out again. Either that or they had a Rod of Teleportation crafted by Larloch at his full caster level, yet still limited in charges and 'carrying' capacity.

Gate portals are something completely different in magical lore. A gate portal must have both an entry and exit point. It must be activated by its portal stone, and while open can transport an unlimited amount of creatures. Again, when I read the Lord's Alliance forces portalling right into the middle of BG I immediately wondered, "When was the exit gate built? Where -is- the exit gate? And why wasn't it used to evacuate BG's civilians -out- and provide supplies -in- when the siege began?" You can't just open a portal to anywhere, it must have a fixed portal gate built and ready. Maybe I am just missing something here, as to the precise location of the Lord's Alliance portal gate in BG city?

I do not want to dampen the fact that portal magic exists. There are copious examples in lore of the ancient elven Miyeritari and Vyshaan portal networks which connect many places across the Sword Coast. Then there are the ancient Imaskari artificers, of which Halaster (Hilater) Blackcloak of Undermountain fame is the most prolific gate builder in Faerun (primarily confined to his dungeon of Undermountain). In later lore, Priamon Rakesk, member of the Twisted Rune, managed to kidnap Halaster in 1369 DR and wrack his mind for his portal secrets and began to construct some himself.

I just found it bordering on the side of cheese that the Teleport's 1 creature/ 3 caster levels restriction was, in my perception, ignored. I would have found it far more believable if a small undead strike force had been teleported into Baldur's Gate during the dead of night, crept down into the lower depths of the sewer bowels and secured one of the portal gates down there for use by the General portallers. Teleporting small forces of less than 10 creatures into the city would have had a 'terror inducing' effect, but little military effect.

It would be nice if the DM team would take a far stricter approach on the amount of forces permitted for Teleportation, both NPC and PC, as well as what I perceive to be the proper use of gate portal technologies, unless I am missing some obscure spell which permits a portal to open somewhere other than its predetermined-during-its-construction exit point?
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Re: 2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

Unread post by Wolfshear »

Tsidkenu, look up teleportation circle. Level 9 spell. I believe that was explicitly stated to be used several times.

It has no limit on people that can go through it, it can be made permanent and it lasts 10 mins per CL even without permanency. And thats just one spell. As far as the pnp goes once you end up in the upper threshold as a caster. Transporting an army to a distant location kind of becomes childs play.

Larloch at level 32 is at the point where he can just make up his own epic spells. He also has magical crafting capabilities beyond just about anyone else. Suggesting he'd have difficulty moving more than 10 people around is just kind of....Silly.


While the liches in the undead horde would definetly not be larloch's level nor posess anywhere near the amount of magical nick nacks or nether scrolls that papa larloch has laying around. They would definetly be in the 15-20 cl range. With easy access to 9th level spells. When you have that many powerful casters teleporting an army is pretty tame compared to what they could actually do in the pnp.
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Steve
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Re: 2015 & 2016 Metaplots - Feedback and Input

Unread post by Steve »

I would like to add something on Input for the future:

Look to creating Metaplot events that are open to only PCs of limited level. Much like D&D modules are designed.

Why? In the 2015 Campaign, there appeared to be far too many Events or "situations" where the PCs involved were far below the skill needed to have a fair chance of success—whatever that may have been for that Event. Or, the antagonists in the Event were of such an unknown power but easily presume to be near godlike, there was really zero chance of a PC being "skilled" enough to have a fair chance at success. Not to mention that low level PCs would probably have some sense of self awareness keeping them from throwing themselves into a War of Avatars kinda situation (which is the borderline state of mind because of lack of perma-death...but that is another story).

Simple put: Events that rely on mechanics yet are populated by any range of PCs from Level 1 to Level 30 are impossible. As well, if the Event is supposedly "RP based," then it possibly sets up a situation where the Event outcome is more based on the skills of the Player, than the skills of the PC (as in utilizing the Character Sheet, and DCs, and having Classes/PrCs/Feats/etc to justify the roles being played). Just as we RP being of 30 STR—which is physically impossible for us in RL—so do we RP being Diplomats of 99 points. Or, PCs of much lesser power...and it would be great if they too had roles—maybe minor, but appropriate and useful within the greater metaplot.

So, if this years metaplot could be developed with that state of mind in which to provide some Events preset for Level 1–5s, Level 6–10s, etc. etc. , I imagine that all PCs would have a "moment to shine."

And not just those PCs that are at the top of their game, i.e., level 30.

Thanks.

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