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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:10 pm 
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I think most players would avoid Areas with Hardcore AI as presented, same as they avoid the hills up to Darkhold or the Crystal Cave near Nashkel Mines: not enough reward for the risk.

Some of us would go for the experience once or twice, but...after you get your arse handed to you a few times, you'll probably realize losing XP is not worth the chance.

So, only makes sense if the reward payout is equal to the challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:14 pm 
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Aspect of Sorrow wrote:
The spawns could be nearly as varied, or taking a step further as a new classification of spawn...
Anti Adventurer Death Squads
They'll gain XP killing you.
Base their level ups on already existing level 30 active player layouts, even those min-maxers.

Yes, and while you're at it, don't cap the spawn amount or their level limit, and make them able to transition between map nodes. Soon the ELITE will RULE!!!

...Anyways, joke aside! As new type of spawn it could work, but they would need very well defined limits, and also needs to be considered that those that triggered it may not be the ones actually facing them. Also, the xp gained from killing these should be much higher than any monster/npc of equivalent CR.

Though personally, I think the emphasis should be around the rp-elements rather than making über-tough monsters.


Last edited by Incarnate on Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:18 pm 
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I don't think making the game harder is a good idea at all, more varied sure but harder, definitely not as some people already find it hard.

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Valefort wrote:
I don't think making the game harder is a good idea at all, more varied sure but harder, definitely not as some people already find it hard.

Yes making the NPC's behave more realistic and able to learn would make sense but without ramping up the actually difficulty, making them more diverse and more unpredictable. I'm more for emphasizing on and enriching the rp-elements than putting emphasis on something that means people need to more put more emphasis on making minmaxed powerbuilds and be optimizing those even further, because that skews the rp-balance with CvC interactions.
Like for instance emphasizing on the ai so suits the actual behaviour of the npc's abilities, race, class, type, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Something as simple as improving the AI use of ranged vs. melee weapons would be an improvement, so would a 'call for help' where spawns within X distance will come to the area. Making enemies work in such a way that they'll attempt to use abilities with zero chance of success would be a debuff so in some ways it's possible it'd be a net nil change, just more realistic, which would be a good thing.

I see it as:
- More realistic/intelligent use of weapons.
- Maybe ability to give enemies some potions or other consumables
- Perhaps giving enemies abilities to use as special skills such as Feint or CE/PA or the like so they can activate modes.... Can only hit on a 20? Activate PA/CE, but if can hit on a 19, maybe they don't! (edit: and of course they shouldn't know this until combat starts and they notice if it's a good idea to use a mode or not, just like players)
- Enemies that don't metagame. Would be nice if the Yuan-Ti Queen didn't know exactly when power word would work... :evil:

But I guess it depends on if such a thing is 'all or none' or if AoS, Valefort and others have the skillset to be able to 'tweak' the AI so that it can enhance realism a bit without making things more difficult (or at least too much more difficult).

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:43 pm 
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A more intelligent AI routine would be an interesting feature for more challenging/endgame optional areas. Probably not as part of main content though.

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:19 pm 
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The singularity... is approaching.

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:50 pm 
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DM Ditto wrote:
A more intelligent AI routine would be an interesting feature for more challenging/endgame optional areas. Probably not as part of main content though.

Perhaps as part of DM events? Let a party of adventurers fight against another party instead of some big bad boss?

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:20 am 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
party of adventurers fight against another party instead of some big bad boss?


Like Dark Zone extractions in The Division.... tasty.

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:44 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
I see it as:
- More realistic/intelligent use of weapons.
- Maybe ability to give enemies some potions or other consumables
- Perhaps giving enemies abilities to use as special skills such as Feint or CE/PA or the like so they can activate modes.... Can only hit on a 20? Activate PA/CE, but if can hit on a 19, maybe they don't! (edit: and of course they shouldn't know this until combat starts and they notice if it's a good idea to use a mode or not, just like players)
- Enemies that don't metagame. Would be nice if the Yuan-Ti Queen didn't know exactly when power word would work...


this for sure. and....

i would also like to see a "hive" mind and learning ability for mobs by zone/race/faction. this would allow mobs to have a much more realistic approach in combat. this would allow for a reactionary "call for help" effect. counter ambush tactics. mobs ready and buffed when you see them instead of them trying to get a buff or two in before you can run up to them.

with a learning ability, the mob(s) could possibly switch weapons to be more effective vs certain toon types. could organize the most effective plan against a number of players, but would be limited because groups change and players with similar builds would have different strategies. it would be really cool if it could recognize toons that they see often enough and build more and more difficult strats against these players. therefore meaning that the player too would have to evolve new strats to overcome them.

this would increase the difficulty, but mainly because the mobs are more efficient. perhaps a few adjustments could be made, but is something that would be a bonus secondary effect. something that has plagued us for a while. it could get the mob HPs closer to the PnP amount. making mobs that where once ineffective, more effective due to this adjustment.

unlike most proposals that increase difficulty, IMO this proposal does not make powerbuilding more necessary. it would require growing as a player and learning strategy. See it like arms race. if the opponent gets better numbers, then the best/easiest way to beat that is to get better numbers. to beat better strategy, the best/easiest way is to have better strategy. another good feature. let strategy and skill win the day. i believe in the player base to be able to achieve this.

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:55 am 
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Is this some kind of new fad in game development or something?


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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:25 am 
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scriver wrote:
Is this some kind of new fad in game development or something?


improving AI has been something that is continuously worked to being improved. metal gear games always highlighted "advanced AI" in its games in the late 80s. you see AI being able to make decisions based on the input of the players movements and tendencies in the mid 90s sports games. before that sports games tended to just make random decisions. action games didn't really have much AI that used decisions and "hive mind" controls until maybe F.E.A.R.? not sure if one was before it that used squad tactics as good as it. MMORPGs havent really pushed hard with an adaptive AI or deep learning from what i know. most of them want a specific strat for winning and a specific set of variables met in order to complete and this would work to counter this. sony/landmark wanted to create a game using this "new" technology, but either it was unable or the financials did not work out. I think it was scrapped, maybe it is just slower now because the work-force is smaller and funding lower.

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:35 am 
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adaptive AI and deep learning was used to create the worlds greatest GO player ever. i watched an awesome doc on that on netflix/amazon/whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:40 am 
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scriver wrote:
Is this some kind of new fad in game development or something?

It is.

People started howling about deep learning and AI at least a year ago.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/11/1613 ... -elon-musk

In reality it is just a buzzword/hype at the moment. To create something serious you'll need to be Google and have a spare computer cluster in your basement.


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 Post subject: Re: tensorflow (or whatever it is) next update
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:44 am 
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aaron22 wrote:
adaptive AI and deep learning was used to create the worlds greatest GO player ever. i watched an awesome doc on that on netflix/amazon/whatever.

Which means you've bought into hype, pretty much.

There's matter of computational power and finances.

There's a video where blue brain plays atari games by looking at the screen.

The problem is that this is not your home PC, but a monster computer worth millions of dollras.

So if you see someone doing a cool thing via new AI approach it does not mean you'll be able to borrow this solution and plug it into your own project.


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