Racial Imbalances

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ARHicks00
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:00 pm

Tsidkenu wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:01 am
So we gunna go Sigil and cap their level to 30 minus ECL?
Dalelands is about to do this too. ECL never made sense in the first place. When I did my online chatroom Campaigns, I never used ECL.

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VDub
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by VDub » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:04 pm

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:58 pm
Orc also have shamans, Warlock, and sorcerers amongst them that require heavy Charisma (ex. Sharptooth Orcs), yet wouldn't penalties makes it hard for them to conjure up a spell, much less qualify for such a class.
Just because they have a penalty to CHR doesn't mean they can't be warlocks/sorcerers. I have a tiefling warlock that casts just fine. They also have a penalty to CHR.
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ARHicks00
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:10 pm

VDub wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:04 pm
ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:58 pm
Orc also have shamans, Warlock, and sorcerers amongst them that require heavy Charisma (ex. Sharptooth Orcs), yet wouldn't penalties makes it hard for them to conjure up a spell, much less qualify for such a class.
Just because they have a penalty to CHR doesn't mean they can't be warlocks/sorcerers. I have a tiefling warlock that casts just fine. They also have a penalty to CHR.
I never that said. :roll:

Rather such orcs would be super rare. Just as rare as a beefy male elf or a skinny dwarf.

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AlwaysSummer Day
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by AlwaysSummer Day » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:44 pm

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:00 pm
Tsidkenu wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:01 am
So we gunna go Sigil and cap their level to 30 minus ECL?
Dalelands is about to do this too. ECL never made sense in the first place. When I did my online chatroom Campaigns, I never used ECL.
Agreed but I think it is too late to change things.
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ARHicks00
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:09 pm

AlwaysSummer Day wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:44 pm
Agreed but I think it is too late to change things.
It can still be done, but the player population and DMs have to be in agreement. I would love for a Half Orc attribute/penalty change, myself.

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electric mayhem
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by electric mayhem » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:43 pm

I think adding a little buff to the Genasi would be a good thing.

My water gen uses her Fog ability on rare occasions for purely environmental immersive RP effects. And nothing else.
Probably the only other positive ability I've found of use with the race has been Darkvision.
The Cold DR is a 'meh' feat. Considered RP flavour.

The race was not attractive for mechanical reasons. Unlike Tief or Aas as other posts before have stated. It was an RP attractive choice for the race.

If we wanted to add more to these classes, that was in line with RP and mechanical abilities.
Water Gen - Perm Underwater Breathing spell.
Air Gen - Dash Feat
Earth Gen - Great Fortitude feat or some DR 1/ or DR2/ feat
Fire Gen - Cast Light at will unlimited times per day.

Just a couple ideas, nothing formal, but enough to continue the topic of the original poster idea.


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ShineDown
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by ShineDown » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:32 pm

genasi are uber rp devices. If you don't know this you haven't played one in a well thought out way. DMs allow the waters to not need air etc. Look past the nwn2 stats and into the lore. The race, if genasi can be termed such, are far, far more interesting if you immerse yourself in them.
Earth genasi can attune to the very ground underneath them or the walls they lay their hands upon. Air genasi properly played can hear things on the wind that can only be dreamed of.
ECL should not be the concern. The lack of imagination should be.

ps: dont you dare touch my aasimar XD

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AlwaysSummer Day
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by AlwaysSummer Day » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:41 pm

Perhaps the best thing that could be done is a change to the spells. Maybe make them like tieflings darkness ability and link them to their level. Fog, Blaze, Stone, and Gale at 30 rounds might seem really powerful compared to light and darkness but the attribute bonus and extra resistance make up the difference.

RP reasons aside genasi really are just meh.
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by chad878262 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:04 pm

IMO it'd be poor form to change ECL for the worse when there are already level 30s. Aasimar is so popular because it's the perfect race for favored soul edm builds as well as paladins or anything that wants to dip paladin.

EDM is tough to qualify for and few races ease the way like Aasimar. Doesn't mean the race is better than tiefling or other +1 ECL races, just that it's better for a popular build archetype.

As to Genasi, I love what ShineDown said. Mechanically Water Genasi and Fire Genasi are perhaps slightly less mechanically superior than their ECL, but some classes/ builds are also weaker than others mechanically. However, they do have other benefits for those willing to look past their minor short comings.
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Rudolph
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by Rudolph » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:44 am

Didn't Half-Orcs get improved a little for very similar reasons? I'm all for giving Water Genasis a little bonus that might open up some new build/race choices (e.g. +1 to a Stat such as Wisdom).

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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:58 am

Rudolph wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:44 am
Didn't Half-Orcs get improved a little for very similar reasons? I'm all for giving Water Genasis a little bonus that might open up some new build/race choices (e.g. +1 to a Stat such as Wisdom).
How does +1 to Constitution even out the -2 to both Int and Cha or how getting +2 to Spot for a race whose favored class doesn't even use such a skill an improvement? Gensai get penalties that even out. Half orc don't and they are the only half-breeds who get an unfair balance.

Along with getting rid of ECL in my campaigns, I changed somethings about races. For example, Centuars got +2 to Strength and Dexterity with -2 Charisma or +4 Dexterity and -2 Con. Centuars also got faster movement and limited immunity to grease. They get penalties to reflex vs traps and spells as well as penalties to spatial awareness (replacement to uncanny dodge, but uses spot or listen to avoid flanks)

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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:18 am

chad878262 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:04 pm
IMO it'd be poor form to change ECL for the worse when there are already level 30s. Aasimar is so popular because it's the perfect race for favored soul edm builds as well as paladins or anything that wants to dip paladin.

EDM is tough to qualify for and few races ease the way like Aasimar. Doesn't mean the race is better than tiefling or other +1 ECL races, just that it's better for a popular build archetype.

As to Genasi, I love what ShineDown said. Mechanically Water Genasi and Fire Genasi are perhaps slightly less mechanically superior than their ECL, but some classes/ builds are also weaker than others mechanically. However, they do have other benefits for those willing to look past their minor short comings.
You can EDM almost any race including Half Orcs, but it is what you have access to that limits them compared to race with no penalties to Charisma. Half orcs get 3 limitations compared to the 1 or 2 that other races get. ECL doesn't do much mechanically or create balance. :roll:

It just attempts to create equity amongst races with clear advantages.

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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by metaquad4 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:14 am

chambordini wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:56 pm
Yeah I'd be okay with raising aasimar to 2 ecl, for population control and balance, the race is too good.
That is a terrible idea, and wouldn't solve the problem at all. Raising ECL just means a little more grinding and the in-ability to grind with a wider group of lower-level players.
Rudolph wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:44 am
Didn't Half-Orcs get improved a little for very similar reasons? I'm all for giving Water Genasis a little bonus that might open up some new build/race choices (e.g. +1 to a Stat such as Wisdom).
Yes. Gensai has been long-due for the kind of tweaking that half-orc got.
ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:00 pm
Tsidkenu wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:01 am
So we gunna go Sigil and cap their level to 30 minus ECL?
Dalelands is about to do this too. ECL never made sense in the first place. When I did my online chatroom Campaigns, I never used ECL.
I guess they've embraced having a nearly dead server and are trying to nail that coffin down. RiP.
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by Zethrenx99 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:34 pm

ECL has always only been a tool to make progression more difficult not to limit the maximum some one can progress. Are other races superior on paper, yes. But they also took more effort to get there, they also have their RP downsides among other things. in a PNP setting this typically means that the ecl player is either behind his fellow team mates by a level or the whole group is of some ecl in which case everything tends to even out. At least that has been my experiences.

If you want to impose a downside on ECL races then bring out characters that RP the significant background of those races and stop making friends with people with demon/devil blood, windy hair or glowy golden eyes? :P
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Re: Racial Imbalances

Unread post by Ewe » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:37 pm

Typically your ECL is supposed to count toward your max level. So a 1 ECL character could only reach 29th level, for example. This is to convey the pnp state of always being behind the rest of your party in total level. For whatever reason the devs here did not pursue that path on bgtscc, and it would likely never happen at this point.

Because of this, ECL doesn't really matter in the long run. Its only real impact is felt at low levels if you are unable to handle the CR of creatures for your modified level to get adequate xp.

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