Dreadmaster buff???

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Nemni
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

Unread post by Nemni »

Obviously it's the wrong class to play if you want to be most effective against mind-immune enemies. But maybe the domination aura could be expanded at level 8 to give a penalty to all mind saving throws, not just fear. Would let the class get the most out of the tyranny domain.

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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

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Off topic, but Cavalier and Divinate are not stronger than vanilla paladin. That is a common misconception, but simply put Cavalier cannot get divine might or shield. It is *FUN* because Shield Bashing is fun and it has tons of flavor as the outsider hunter like in the lore of the Cavalier Paladin from Unearthed Arcana (1e), but vanilla paladin is stronger. Divinate is more CONVENIENT than a vanilla paladin, and one could even say that it is perhaps more powerful for purposes of no resting DM events. However, in standard PvE (or even PvP) a vanilla paladin can spike damage far better thanks to Smite. With the feat tax of true believer making up for the fact that most paladins will take extend spell, Divinate and Vanilla Paladin are the closest in terms of power, but vanilla is a better boss killer and PvP'er against those villainous PCs out there.

ON TOPIC - We should always remember that summons are a touchy subject. We have to be careful that a fully buffed summon is not going to 'outfight the fighter'. That said, when you look at the stats on Dreadmaster summons here it is easy to extrapolate that they are approximately on par with Lesser Planar Binding Summons. When compared to what a Thaumaturge can get with Greater Planar Ally, not to mention what Palemaster gets I think it is clear they are quite subpar. I don't believe they need a huge buff and would not want the summon to be on par with Palemaster or Thaumaturge summons, but since they use the cohort slot and thus can't be cheesed by making a Cleric/Dreadmaster/Thaumaturge, I do think it is warranted to give a slight buff to HP and/or AC for all the options.

The other consideration of course is for a Caster Cleric to go Tyranny and Law Domains which will give you mass hold monster and dominate monster... You could then have both your cohort and a dominated enemy to help you so I would certainly not say that they are weak when built correctly. Yeah, fear is not super useful, but enchantment as a whole certainly is. I think what Nemni suggests is a good option to consider as well, but this could be quite strong if we consider a Cleric 17/DM10/BG3 to have dual aura's lowering saving throws. Maybe add Warpriest for a few levels to get that aura too (though not sure if it stacks with blackguard, I forget).
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

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The majority of mobs aren't fear immune, but fear immunity is depressingly common, and easy to obtain, and most PC who would tend to go try and murder Banites for being Banites will either be innately fear immune or have easy access to. And PvPing is a common issue, just ask AsuraKing how often his PC gets attacked in the church.
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

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chad878262 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:25 am
I don't believe they need a huge buff and would not want the summon to be on par with Palemaster or Thaumaturge summons, but since they use the cohort slot and thus can't be cheesed by making a Cleric/Dreadmaster/Thaumaturge, I do think it is warranted to give a slight buff to HP and/or AC for all the options.
I'm staying out of mechanical discussions mainly because I'm about the worst person to discuss it, but the underlined part above I simply dont understand. Why should a class that requires a MUCH more heavy pre-req cost (including a feat tax) as well as needing a full 10 levels to get the cohort be expected to have a weaker summon? I'm not saying it should be more powerful or anything, but it should certainly be on par with the other two at least.
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

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Have to say I agree with Asura there. Thaumaturge is one of the best PRCs already because you get a lot for only 5 levels. Heck, you don't even need the cohort for it to be clearly better than taking levels of a base class instead. And Palemaster has huge bonuses even if you didn't have any undead summoning at all. In both cases those bonuses are largely useful all the time (aside from pale master's touch, but you go PM for the AC/immunities). I do feel the Dreadmaster should get a cohort equivalent to those two, since most of its other bonuses are either relatively weak, or limited or situational.
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

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1. Supposedly Blackguard aura and Dreadmaster Fear aura do not work simultaneously.

2. The penultimate Feat of the Dreadmaster isn't going to be equal to or greater than the best Cohorts/Summons available to any PrC?!?! :hand: Better yet, the Special Cohort should be gained at 1st Level Dreadmaster, and scale throughout the progression (but perhaps 3-step progression through the 10 levels would do...and cut down with the "work")
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

Unread post by Valefort »

The cohorts are not at lesser planar binding levels, lesser planar binding is 12 AB and 23 AC. They're all more powerful than greater planar binding ones already, the stats linked above are unbuffed and without any summoning feat.

As for Fear and DCs http://nwn2db.com/build/?275462 and you can still cast Fear on your spell slots, obviously.
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

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The difference is that Dreadmaster focuses on enchantment as a prerequisite so giving them cohorts as strong as a PC that has Greater Spell Focus Conjuration (or Epic) simply put wouldn't make sense. By having one of the most powerful cohorts on top of dominate monster without needing GSF in Conjuration or Necromancy you end up with a new meta. As I said, I do believe the cohorts could use a small buff, but not too much. Just ensuring cleric buffs can increase their AC would be a good start. However, I would still say they need 2-3 more AC in order to be able to last more than a single combat.

If we learn anything from mistakes of the past it's best to use small increments rather than try to make new things equivalent to existing top tiers since it seems invariably they end up as the new strongest thing, which is power creep and should not be done.
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

Unread post by Steve »

Builds in relation:

Straight Cleric 30: http://nwn2db.com/build/?326171
Cleric with Heiro/Thaum: http://nwn2db.com/build/?326191

Like I wrote earlier, the Dreadmaster grants 1 DC higher for Enchantment than builds without it, lesser DC for Fear (+/- spell).

So, in reality, what makes a Dreadmaster using Special Cohort, Baneguard and a Dominated Mob, isn't Dreadmaster itself, but in combination with Thaumaturge and Hierophant. Multiclass for the win!!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

Unread post by Valefort »

That's not exactly something new in our ruleset, multiclassing is advantageous. Should the fear ability be on cooldown for Dreadmasters if 3/day is not enough ?
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

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chad878262 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:44 pm
The difference is that Dreadmaster focuses on enchantment as a prerequisite so giving them cohorts as strong as a PC that has Greater Spell Focus Conjuration (or Epic) simply put wouldn't make sense. By having one of the most powerful cohorts on top of dominate monster without needing GSF in Conjuration or Necromancy you end up with a new meta. As I said, I do believe the cohorts could use a small buff, but not too much. Just ensuring cleric buffs can increase their AC would be a good start. However, I would still say they need 2-3 more AC in order to be able to last more than a single combat.
Dreadmasters are all about fear and leadership, in PnP they technically work off the leadership feat which provides them a standard cohort and as they progress through levels the Dreadmaster turns said cohort into essentially a zealot, doing whatever the Dreadmaster says even if endangers said cohort. Ontop of that mundane cohort then comes the special cohort (which is what we have) that they can have as well (2 cohorts) which isnt a product of summoning power and whatnot but a powerful creature drawn by the sheer prescience of the Dreadmaster's authority/leadership.

That said I 100% would not expect any form of having 2 cohorts, but the cohort's are indeed the main focus of the PrC alongside Fear, not enchantment or necromancy as a whole. Just Leadership and Fear.
chad878262 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:44 pm
If we learn anything from mistakes of the past it's best to use small increments rather than try to make new things equivalent to existing top tiers since it seems invariably they end up as the new strongest thing, which is power creep and should not be done.
Now this I completely understand, this is a far better reason than thaum/PM should have stronger summons for pre-req reasons (which doesnt really work in PM's case :P )
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Valefort wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:58 am
Because this "majority" is false.
Quote, "Dreadmaster is good against beast, vermin, and humanoids. Anything else like epic level creatures, undead, constructs, etc. They useless since fear does not work. Dreadmaster as a PrC would lose to most cleric PrCs..."
Valefort wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:23 am
Ok get better fear DCs and show your menagerie of horrors, as that's what Dreadmaster is about, on your cleric 30 :whistle:

It makes me wonder about your expectations on Dreadmaster actually. They're not super clerics, they're ones who specialize in fear (fear aura, fear spells, intimidate buffs) and domination (enchantment requirement, cohort). I don't mind pushing that theme a bit in terms of power, and the lack of turn undead progression is annoying, but critics based on fear being useless are off.
Dreadmaster is RP first and PvE/PvM or PvP second. Cleric is fine by itself and there is nothing saying you can't call yourself a dreadmaster excpet if participate with a group that is keen on that. Again, the Dreadmaster PrC just RP purposes only. The only way to make the class good is to give it some synergy to allow it to branch out and mash well with other PrCs (as well as the cleric class itself), but I don't forsee that being on DMs' high priority list.

I think the counter for Intimidation is will save, but does someone who has aura of courage have to roll a save? Other than that we are in agreement.

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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

Unread post by Valefort »

Epic level creatures are not systematically immune to fear you know.

"Dreadmaster is RP first and PvE/PvM or PvP second." then "Again, the Dreadmaster PrC just RP purposes only." is contradictory. The Dreadmaster has practical, usable, PvE feats. No they won't work everywhere but that does not make them invalid, and the build I linked earlier already shows off how to branch out in other cleric PRCs to get some synergy.
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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Valefort wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:07 pm
Epic level creatures are not systematically immune to fear you know.

"Dreadmaster is RP first and PvE/PvM or PvP second." then "Again, the Dreadmaster PrC just RP purposes only." is contradictory. The Dreadmaster has practical, usable, PvE feats. No they won't work everywhere but that does not make them invalid, and the build I linked earlier already shows off how to branch out in other cleric PRCs to get some synergy.
Quote, "PvE/PvM wise - they serve as crowd control against certain groups thanks to their pets and fear spell."

I believe we are in agreement. However, the only two PVE aspect is the AOE fear spell that you can use 3 times and Cohort. Because the server uses advance AI, mobs tend to ignore the companion and using a fear spell 3 time is not in good in a long dungeon run.

The fear aura only cause -4 against fear and does stack with other existing auras on the same character. Like having BG and DM mix as I found both auras cannot stack on the same character.

So when the Cohort is defeated and fear spell made useless by high save or immunity then what do you have left? Cleric spells?...then why just play a plain cleric?

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Re: Dreadmaster buff???

Unread post by Valefort »

By that logic what do you do as a thaumaturge when your summons are dead ? More generally, as a caster, what do you do when your spells run out or fail ? You get away.

For the fear 3/day there's the possibility of using a cooldown instead.

On the aura, -4 is a huge +20% success rate, and BG aura should stack as long as it comes from another character as you noticed (something like a MaA 26 /BG 4 comes to mind). And yes auras do not stack on a single character, this would require some rewriting.

For the cohort remember there are feats raising summon abilities. Even outside of those summoning feats Dreadmaster cohorts are not weak in comparison to other cohorts but I'll take a more thorough look to be absolutely certain.
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