Permadeath, XP, and you

Suggestions Should Be Posted in Their Respective Categories

Moderators: Moderator, Quality Control, Developer, DM

User avatar
PaulImposteur
Retired Staff
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:33 pm
Location: Washington

Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by PaulImposteur »

My yearly re-submission of my favorite suggestion

Mark of Death is a great concept, and being opt-in is a nice little cherry. However, between the servers difficulty and the extremely slow rate of leveling the experience is utterly frustrating- instead of a rewarding and interesting story to tell (In death)

My proposal is pretty straight forward, when a character possesses the Mark of Death, they CANNOT RCR, and they gain 3 times the experience from combat (Perhaps not role-play, to encourage endangering themselves)

The reasoning is simple, because the grind is so dreadful this change would make people bored of playing their level 30s and wanting to try something new and likely temporarily feel more rewarded with their time. To max out a character it currently takes around 1200 hours for the average player, this would cut it down to 400 hours. While that is of course, significantly less time- it comes with the possibility of literally dying.

It's a good counter-balance, encourages use of a neat mechanic, reinforces death IC, and is a gimmick for people that want to try out some new RP with feeling less punished by grinding.

(To clarify, I do use this mechanic. In fact I've had 4-5 characters that are dead because of it. Level 12+ is heck.)
User Login: Spidertomb
Hurricane (Dumb Barbarian)
Jordan Steelsplitter (Shady Dwelf)
Xiao Jun (Uninformed Shou Tourist)
Roleeda Ganzfried (Insecure Hin Warlock)
User avatar
DaloLorn
Lead Programmer
Posts: 2035
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:44 am
Location: Discord (Dalo Lorn#0171)

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by DaloLorn »

This was, IIRC, vetoed before implementation by the person who implemented the Mark of Death (I wanna say DM Ink?), since the condition for its implementation was that it offered no mechanical incentive to roll MoD characters. There's also been a fair bit of opposition from parts of the playerbase, including but not limited to the usual suspects.

TBH, I've always found the Mark fairly pointless. On the one hand, it encourages powerbuilding and min-maxing behaviors to prolong your lifespan by ensuring you win any battle you get into. On the other hand, when you finally do run out the clock, it's usually because some monster rolled up a bunch of nat 20s in quick succession during a random grinding session; not an altogether interesting way to die. (I've never been killed by a DM... *eyes Ghost* on purpose... and I've only rarely been killed by fellow PCs, but I found those deaths - and my own kills - far more compelling than anything the game's PvE content tends to throw at me, with or without permadeath.)
European player, UTC+1 (+2 during DST). Fixer of random bits. Active in Discord.
Active characters:
  • Zeila Linepret
  • Aela Lathyaan
  • Ilhara Evrine
  • Linathyl Selmiyeritar
  • Aeryn Faer
  • Virin Swifteye
  • Gurzhuk
User avatar
PaulImposteur
Retired Staff
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:33 pm
Location: Washington

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by PaulImposteur »

Change is never wanted, you need only look at the coming soon forum area and all the years previous.
Power-building is going to happen, but with deaths sometimes being unfair doesn't mean that it isn't also at the same time wiping slates clean on MoD characters.

I find sudden death interesting myself, having a close IC friend that is gone without any last words is no doubt going to be a wrenching experience. High stakes, and the reward would be only saved time, still at an insane 400 hours on average.

It's a kind of RP that is very rarely done, there are few that enjoy the idea of having a character that's on a budget of lives- but that's especially true when there's no merit, nor reward. By encouraging it, we could encourage more grounded stories where people aren't raised from the dead all the time, where sometimes, someone might just slip through to Myrkul.

Ultimately, it's more rewarding even with increased experience gains to just level a character conventionally, because there will always be 0 lost time once you hit 30. You'll be able to infinitely grind out loot, with no worry of losing a character from death. This addition to the feature would simply be a fresh way to experience new characters, and build stories around those that survive them, stories to reminisce about, and heroes/villains to remember.

Gimmicks work, and providing the incentive would definitely have far more people utilize it, the server would have more fallen heroes to cement a grounded history. Even those that don't utilize it, will be meeting new faces and remembering old ones.

Dying by using this sort of mechanic isn't for the users enjoyment, as much as it is to foster memories for other characters that aren't using it.
User Login: Spidertomb
Hurricane (Dumb Barbarian)
Jordan Steelsplitter (Shady Dwelf)
Xiao Jun (Uninformed Shou Tourist)
Roleeda Ganzfried (Insecure Hin Warlock)
User avatar
DaloLorn
Lead Programmer
Posts: 2035
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:44 am
Location: Discord (Dalo Lorn#0171)

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Dying by using this sort of mechanic isn't for the users enjoyment, as much as it is to foster memories for other characters that aren't using it.
Speaking for myself, I don't see that this is necessary. We already lose enough interesting characters to OOC attrition (sometimes bans, sometimes people dropping the characters or leaving the server) without needing to introduce another mostly-OOC attrition mechanism.

This has historically led to more OOC attrition:
  • The Guides of the Underdark keep disintegrating whenever even one member's activity declines, as they have very few other people to interact with down there. The outright death of a member, unless immediately compensated for by their player (or caused by another player or DM, in a way that gives the others an enemy to fight), would possibly have a lasting negative effect on the guild's stability.

    (Even before the Guides were a thing, Ilhara was strongly dependent on her Eilistraeen friends, and would frequently slide onto the shelf whenever enough of them vanished.)
  • The House of Spades famously imploded after Jalib left, leaving Edelgarde with the fanciest player housing on BG. :lol:
  • After Oskod and Emma vanished, Vilmar soon followed suit.
  • Shali first disappeared from the server because Feylar did.
  • Losing William and Ishi quickly deprived Virin of friends to bounce off.
  • Rinn started dialing down after the Ganzfrieds and the Second Dawn were gone, before disappearing outright soon after Dalian vanished.
  • The list undoubtedly goes on, even for my own PCs, but I cannot for the life of me think of any more examples I'm aware of.
European player, UTC+1 (+2 during DST). Fixer of random bits. Active in Discord.
Active characters:
  • Zeila Linepret
  • Aela Lathyaan
  • Ilhara Evrine
  • Linathyl Selmiyeritar
  • Aeryn Faer
  • Virin Swifteye
  • Gurzhuk
Ewe
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by Ewe »

Thank you for the suggestion. Sounds interesting.
AKA Dae-Glyth
Discord: Dae-Glyth#1759
User avatar
PaulImposteur
Retired Staff
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:33 pm
Location: Washington

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by PaulImposteur »

DaloLorn wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:05 am
Dying by using this sort of mechanic isn't for the users enjoyment, as much as it is to foster memories for other characters that aren't using it.
Speaking for myself, I don't see that this is necessary. We already lose enough interesting characters to OOC attrition (sometimes bans, sometimes people dropping the characters or leaving the server) without needing to introduce another mostly-OOC attrition mechanism.

This has historically led to more OOC attrition:
  • The Guides of the Underdark keep disintegrating whenever even one member's activity declines, as they have very few other people to interact with down there. The outright death of a member, unless immediately compensated for by their player (or caused by another player or DM, in a way that gives the others an enemy to fight), would possibly have a lasting negative effect on the guild's stability.

    (Even before the Guides were a thing, Ilhara was strongly dependent on her Eilistraeen friends, and would frequently slide onto the shelf whenever enough of them vanished.)
  • The House of Spades famously imploded after Jalib left, leaving Edelgarde with the fanciest player housing on BG. :lol:
  • After Oskod and Emma vanished, Vilmar soon followed suit.
  • Shali first disappeared from the server because Feylar did.
  • Losing William and Ishi quickly deprived Virin of friends to bounce off.
  • Rinn started dialing down after the Ganzfrieds and the Second Dawn were gone, before disappearing outright soon after Dalian vanished.
  • The list undoubtedly goes on, even for my own PCs, but I cannot for the life of me think of any more examples I'm aware of.
Agreed it's not necessary at all, most of my favorite features (and some gone) on this server are not needed. But small features like this one, add another layer of gameplay choices, and player options, gimmicks are enticing and people will often use them because the experience will feel fresher. Giving people a dopamine dose with faster XP for a trade of death, isn't a bad thing. 400 hours isn't exactly immediate gratification, but it's closer to that than 1200 hours.

Death in this case would be the same as "Playing your sheet", it's an event that happened right then and there, for immediate role-play. It's not the gradual disappearance of a toon, that could be written off as disappearance or death, then the character suddenly returns because their player freed up time (Like me!)

Those are OOC things that occur because a player becomes inactive. This event would occur because a player is active. It adds to the role-play instead of doing a dance of "Is this OOC or IC?" when someone disappears.

But those examples you gave do have negative impact. Ultimately this would be used as an IC mechanic because it involves role-playing others surviving and some not. It's concrete IC, and the person gone, is gone. That's why I think it's a great deal different than the examples you gave.

The system being opt in, is what makes it enticing, since it doesn't force a change on others. Power builders won't take this option because possibly losing a character instead of having infinite runs in Epic areas is a terrible trade. The suggestion merely eases the burden of trying to make this kind of role-play, and having a sudden death less time consuming.
User Login: Spidertomb
Hurricane (Dumb Barbarian)
Jordan Steelsplitter (Shady Dwelf)
Xiao Jun (Uninformed Shou Tourist)
Roleeda Ganzfried (Insecure Hin Warlock)
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by Steve »

I am all for the greater the risk, the greater the reward. Risking the "life" of your Character, literally, by adventuring, because you never know when you'd be forced to stop RPing that Character because dying IG...it has a certain appeal for some, and basically, I would wish those players could enjoy this risk AND feel that the effort to be true to a "you never know when it'll be the last moment..." was receiving some greater reward.

Even though we can easily separate the existing Mark of Death script from the slog that is leveling, in terms of enjoyment/fun/player choice/etc., perhaps there IS a greater RP story, a greater RP experience where the Player has no control over the death of their toon.

And making the Mark of Death script be one where a Player could never RCR that toon, also has a finality, in terms of RL investment. I'd argue it is borderline masochistic, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

That said, the issue I see in this doubling/tripling/quadrupling XP rate, is that is is almost entirely possible to make it to Level 30 without dying! I've once myself made it to level 23 without dying, but then got cocky, and well...Fugue'd. So, I can't say if it would really be any better to increase XP rate, since the actual VALUE of Mark of Death exists now, IG, and can be just as "rewarding" to play it, should that be your thing.

Possibly, it is just better to seek increasing XP output in general, for everyone, so that Players don't feel like they'll be slogging out Lootz-grindz for weeks and weeks, because they can't get it in their head that the fun is in the journey.

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
DaloLorn
Lead Programmer
Posts: 2035
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:44 am
Location: Discord (Dalo Lorn#0171)

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by DaloLorn »

PaulImposteur wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:30 pmBut those examples you gave do have negative impact. Ultimately this would be used as an IC mechanic because it involves role-playing others surviving and some not. It's concrete IC, and the person gone, is gone. That's why I think it's a great deal different than the examples you gave.
Over on Ravenloft, I've seen characters lose steam and disappear when someone close to them was closured (Ravenloft has non-lethal ways of permanently removing a character from play, hence "closure" as a catch-all term including, but not limited to permadeath). Sometimes - especially if you're not otherwise at the center of events - you can run out of ideas for a character just because one or two others are no longer around. As an altoholic, it's definitely frustrating to see a lot of your characters get stuck in a rut due to circumstances beyond your control.
The system being opt in, is what makes it enticing, since it doesn't force a change on others. Power builders won't take this option because possibly losing a character instead of having infinite runs in Epic areas is a terrible trade. The suggestion merely eases the burden of trying to make this kind of role-play, and having a sudden death less time consuming.
It is more accurate to say that it doesn't force a change now. (Well, aside from the impact of random permadeath discussed above.) However, characters not directly affected by your proposal would still find that their MoD-boosted peers were massively outpacing them. In effect, no long-term adventuring partnership between MoD and non-MoD characters could be created until the latter reached epic levels, as the former would simply leave them in the dust. Early adventures being one of the primary sources of RP for new characters, I do not feel that we should hinder that in this way.

For similar reasons, I disagree with Steve that increasing overall XP gains is prudent, precisely because I agree with him that a good chunk of the fun is in the journey. I do hope the PvE revamp will make it feel less grindy for the average player (while hopefully slowing powerleveling a bit at the same time, because going from 1 to 30 in a week is insane), but simply increasing the XP gained per kill is not the answer.
European player, UTC+1 (+2 during DST). Fixer of random bits. Active in Discord.
Active characters:
  • Zeila Linepret
  • Aela Lathyaan
  • Ilhara Evrine
  • Linathyl Selmiyeritar
  • Aeryn Faer
  • Virin Swifteye
  • Gurzhuk
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by Steve »

DaloLorn wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:47 pm
For similar reasons, I disagree with Steve that increasing overall XP gains is prudent, precisely because I agree with him that a good chunk of the fun is in the journey. I do hope the PvE revamp will make it feel less grindy for the average player (while hopefully slowing powerleveling a bit at the same time, because going from 1 to 30 in a week is insane), but simply increasing the XP gained per kill is not the answer.
To me, it seems like one of the major gripes about BGTSCC—and I even think recently Rhifox reiterated this—is that Players hate Hate HATE Leveling. I'd argue that WHY Players hate leveling so much, is because there is nothing interesting going on at the non-Level 30 Levels. It is a sentiment, even if it isn't true.

Plus, and this is just reality, once your toon reaches Level 30, there is just no more development, outside of the "role-play" development. Even though, one cannot argue that role-play development isn't ACTUALLY going on from Level 1 zero XP until Level 30.

So...why not increase XP output, considering the majority seem to feel that once hitting the mechanical limit, they are now "free to RP" and in totality. However, it must be noted that ANY artificial End Level, then, would be appropriate for the argument. Choose Level 13. That's super quick to reach. Choose 20 even, since that is where the majority argues that leveling gets the most tedious and un-fun.

And simply leave the content in as-is. I'd love to see 5-6 Level 20 maxed out PCs go take on the Balor!!! What fun, right?!!?

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
PaulImposteur
Retired Staff
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:33 pm
Location: Washington

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by PaulImposteur »

Steve wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:15 pm
DaloLorn wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:47 pm
For similar reasons, I disagree with Steve that increasing overall XP gains is prudent, precisely because I agree with him that a good chunk of the fun is in the journey. I do hope the PvE revamp will make it feel less grindy for the average player (while hopefully slowing powerleveling a bit at the same time, because going from 1 to 30 in a week is insane), but simply increasing the XP gained per kill is not the answer.
To me, it seems like one of the major gripes about BGTSCC—and I even think recently Rhifox reiterated this—is that Players hate Hate HATE Leveling. I'd argue that WHY Players hate leveling so much, is because there is nothing interesting going on at the non-Level 30 Levels. It is a sentiment, even if it isn't true.

Plus, and this is just reality, once your toon reaches Level 30, there is just no more development, outside of the "role-play" development. Even though, one cannot argue that role-play development isn't ACTUALLY going on from Level 1 zero XP until Level 30.

So...why not increase XP output, considering the majority seem to feel that once hitting the mechanical limit, they are now "free to RP" and in totality. However, it must be noted that ANY artificial End Level, then, would be appropriate for the argument. Choose Level 13. That's super quick to reach. Choose 20 even, since that is where the majority argues that leveling gets the most tedious and un-fun.

And simply leave the content in as-is. I'd love to see 5-6 Level 20 maxed out PCs go take on the Balor!!! What fun, right?!!?
No idea where the sentiment comes from, it's existed since the servers inception. There is a desire to make people role-play more (admiral), but by making the experience gains slower and slower, what we've done on this server is make people dedicate more time to grinding, not less. There's a great irony in that.

There's almost nobody that reaches 30 in a week, before the XP nerf in areas, you'd have to grind Wyverns for like 8 hours to get one level- without rest, at a constant rapid pace, likely in a group. No one wants to kill a million wyverns and xvarts, it is simply what the server forces people to do.

The idea that 3-5% of the player-base grinds like crazy and power-levels, means the rest of the player base needs to also receive the punished slow-down is pretty bad. The only time I was able to level fast, was because I played this like a job because of COVID and being out of work.

Levels 1-15 are probably the most fun; because of progression. The rest of the levels are terrible because of the XP gains. To what Steve said about having a character not die until 23, sure- that's Steve lmao. We can't account the 5% of players that are extremely good at building, and leveling as the entire playerbase and make all the decisions based on that. It's not very fun for the 95% then.

However; my original post has nothing to do with that, though obviously the base XP gains is a huge factor on what makes MoD so extremely dissatisfying.

Hopefully the PVE adjustments make the post 15 leveling better, but I still think even if the case, my suggestion would bring some interesting stories; I'm personally a big fan of Rogue games, it'd be nice to feel something faster paced on BG, because currently I can't even bear to go fight anything from being burnt out from the same regions and monsters for 11 years.
User Login: Spidertomb
Hurricane (Dumb Barbarian)
Jordan Steelsplitter (Shady Dwelf)
Xiao Jun (Uninformed Shou Tourist)
Roleeda Ganzfried (Insecure Hin Warlock)
User avatar
Tekill
Recognized Donor
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:12 am
Location: BC, Canada

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by Tekill »

-We are all immortals.
-We have more magic items and wealth that we know what to do with.
-The world magically protects/prevent us from harming each other
-We can declare ourselves High/Lord/Lady/Commander of any number of a zillion niche factions available.
-We can reach demi-god levels of power in mere weeks or only a couple months if you take your time.

We are Demi Gods walking around pretending to be mortal, vulnerable average hero's. We pretend we are in danger when there is absolutely zero danger of any kind.

We play in a magical land where we are stronger than all the bad guys, we always win, we all get to be the super hero, and nothing bad ever really happens- unless it meets with our approval.

WE CANT LOSE!
Therefor we are not really playing an RPG game. We are just imagining we are!
It looks a lot like Forgotten Realms, but it really really really is not.

So please lets stop pretending, beause it is getting embarrassing.

Instead lets up the difficulty level of this game from pussy cat toddler level- utterly harmless, to at least something sort of normal or acceptable to an actual D&D Role playing game.

Thank you – rant over.
Malodia - Bae'qeshel - The Dark Minstrel - https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=76945

Gilthisanthilas - Pryat of Helm - Everwatch Knight

Skagrot Skullsplitter - Mountain Orc Warrior - The Last Skullsplitter https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=79740
User avatar
Moonsong
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:08 am

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by Moonsong »

I'm fine if anyone wants to play a permadeath character.

But it shouldn't be a general rule for everyone.

Players should be able to choose. Period.
Tiawyn Aleaneldeth - Triune Mystic Bardess and Original elf

Bio - Look to the stars, and inside your heart

Seven Stars - Sales & Services - Save one soul - and you save the world

Tiawyn's Artbook - From the innermost.

Please keep drama 100 feet away from me at all times. Thanks.
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by Steve »

Tekill wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:21 pm -We are all immortals.
-We have more magic items and wealth that we know what to do with.
-The world magically protects/prevent us from harming each other
-We can declare ourselves High/Lord/Lady/Commander of any number of a zillion niche factions available.
-We can reach demi-god levels of power in mere weeks or only a couple months if you take your time.

We are Demi Gods walking around pretending to be mortal, vulnerable average hero's. We pretend we are in danger when there is absolutely zero danger of any kind.

We play in a magical land where we are stronger than all the bad guys, we always win, we all get to be the super hero, and nothing bad ever really happens- unless it meets with our approval.

WE CANT LOSE!
Therefor we are not really playing an RPG game. We are just imagining we are!
It looks a lot like Forgotten Realms, but it really really really is not.

So please lets stop pretending, beause it is getting embarrassing.

Instead lets up the difficulty level of this game from pussy cat toddler level- utterly harmless, to at least something sort of normal or acceptable to an actual D&D Role playing game.

Thank you – rant over.
A perfectly lucid observation. :clap:

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
DaloLorn
Lead Programmer
Posts: 2035
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:44 am
Location: Discord (Dalo Lorn#0171)

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by DaloLorn »

There seems to be a common misconception in much of the community, that tends to rear its head whenever anyone brings up the term "XP". It's one I'm all too familiar with, having shared it in the past:

"You should level as fast as possible."

Even some of my most successful characters have driven me into that trap once or twice (though sometimes only in an effort not to get left in the dust by my would-be peers), but after two stints on Ravenloft interspersed with my half-dozen or so BG periods, I find myself increasingly convinced that it is, in fact, a trap.

Yes, sometimes you need to attain a certain level of power to be credible in whatever role you're trying to play. I've been there with Rinn, and it sucked that I had to resort to solo grinding to keep up with my would-be victims, allies, and enemies. (TBH, a better way to address that might be to offer some kind of application mechanism, to tell the DMs "I want to create a temporary character with XYZ, with the intent of telling this-and-that kind of story" - not unlike AMPCs over on Ravenloft, but not necessarily restricted just to monstrous templates.) And sometimes a certain level of mechanical progression is needed to adequately represent IC growth (this is particularly severe with dragon disciples, IMO). That's okay too, and it sucks that our content doesn't really make that journey very interesting.

But... some of the best times I've had on BG have been in the low to mid levels. The world is new, you're still finding your footing, and there's meaning even in the most mundane adventures. (Not to mention that some of our most interesting dungeons, old or new, are in those levels.) It's still easy to forge bonds with people, and you're not yet so far removed from new characters as to be mutually irrelevant to each other. Not all my early bloomers make it into the epics, but all my epic characters felt great long before epic levels.

If there's anything I want to do to XP, it's to narrow the gap between the ones that grind like there's no tomorrow and the ones that take the time to smell the roses, in the hope that the former may then become the latter. A blanket increase to XP gains just widens the gap further, while an isolated blanket reduction, without changes to make the experience feel better, would justifiably be seen as cruel and undeserved punishment.
European player, UTC+1 (+2 during DST). Fixer of random bits. Active in Discord.
Active characters:
  • Zeila Linepret
  • Aela Lathyaan
  • Ilhara Evrine
  • Linathyl Selmiyeritar
  • Aeryn Faer
  • Virin Swifteye
  • Gurzhuk
User avatar
Almarea90
Forum Moderator
Posts: 918
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:26 am

Re: Permadeath, XP, and you

Unread post by Almarea90 »

Personally I have conflicting feelings about the Mark of Death and those have been pretty much voiced by Dalo: although a valid tool for those who want the game to be more challenging, what it achieve is not the conclusion of someone's story in a plot or conflict with other player but rather an unexpected death because a mob rolled 3 natural 20s. I feel the increase in its use rather than the expected effect would cause a bigger turnover mid-plot and be potentially detrimental for guilds and RP groups (not to mention if for example there is multiple tpk in a dungeon or DM events this could lead a guild to disappear altogether).

The second point I would like to address is the necessity (or perceived necessity) that to be "meaningful" one must be level 30.
It is certainly true that melee characters especially would easily get roflstomped by mobs tuned for level 30 in DM events, however in my experience the involvement in the activity of the server doesn't depends on the lever nor the power of the build.
I will bring Isabella Villame as an example. I have been in Candlekeep for 3 years now and I've seen her using her sheet's abilities only a handful of times, yet very often people would go to her seeking advice or help. Therefore, in my opinion, the aforementioned involvement is probably a mix of longevity of the character and time spent RPing. Neither depends on the level and the former is if anything made more difficult by the Mark of Death.

For the above reasons I believe that the Mark of Death, although an efficient tool for challenge and sense of constant impending danger, is probably not the best tool to achieve that sense of loss part of the community seems to be looking for. A solution could probably be a variation of the Mark of Death, which would be a sort of "opt in" for permadeath in DM events or PVP.

Tekill wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:21 pm -We are all immortals.
-We have more magic items and wealth that we know what to do with.
-The world magically protects/prevent us from harming each other
-We can declare ourselves High/Lord/Lady/Commander of any number of a zillion niche factions available.
-We can reach demi-god levels of power in mere weeks or only a couple months if you take your time.

We are Demi Gods walking around pretending to be mortal, vulnerable average hero's. We pretend we are in danger when there is absolutely zero danger of any kind.

We play in a magical land where we are stronger than all the bad guys, we always win, we all get to be the super hero, and nothing bad ever really happens- unless it meets with our approval.

WE CANT LOSE!
Therefor we are not really playing an RPG game. We are just imagining we are!
It looks a lot like Forgotten Realms, but it really really really is not.

So please lets stop pretending, beause it is getting embarrassing.

Instead lets up the difficulty level of this game from pussy cat toddler level- utterly harmless, to at least something sort of normal or acceptable to an actual D&D Role playing game.

Thank you – rant over.
I am not entirely sure what you mean by "lets up the difficulty", but I understand that it's either an invite to everyone to use the Mark of Death as the standard game is somehow less valid or that you are advocating to implement the Mark of Death for PvE/PvP death for everyone regardless of their preferences. If I misinterpreted please feel free to correct me.

If it's the former, I sincerely commend you for playing a character with the Mark of Death for this long. However, I don't think the Mark of Death makes one's RP more or less valid. It would be like saying that campfire/social RP is less valid than adventuring or that a non combatant character is less valid than a combatant one just because the latter is more risky. At the end of the day this is not a race at who plays the harder mode. We are all here to have fun and not everyone has the same concept of fun.

If it's the latter, I don't think it's a good idea and the comparing a persistent world with PnP is simply not feasible.
- In PnP you aren't playing with a 15 years old engine with potential lag spikes and you don't risk to lose the character because of those.
- In PnP there is a DM who tunes the encounters based on a small party, while on a persistent world you risk to lose your character just because the battle was tuned for level 30 with a power build or because the wrong mob spawned at the wrong time.
- In PnP you play with a small party (oftentimes on the same side) of players that you trust or at least that have previously discussed with you stakes and expectations and if things go south there is still a DM who can mediate. In a persistent world with 60+ people who at least at first are complete strangers, statistically there will always be that one who ganks people for little to no reason at all.
- Some people might like the feeling of danger given by the Mark of Death, but people don't usually like being permakilled especially those who aren't already using the Mark of Death, and this would encourage even more powerbuilds. Now those who don't have them or who play non-combatants will be the easy pick because they won't fight back or not effectively and don't risk to permakill the aggressor.
- Resurrection is a thing.
Edelgarde Spades - Guide of Candlekeep and Deneirrath priest, still a Disney princess in the wrong tale.

Gleam of the Firefly - In your darkest hour, look for the firefly

Auntie Ed's Wands(TM): Saving the Coast one Protection from Evil at time.

Candlekeep Public Collection Reference
Post Reply

Return to “Suggestions and Discussion”