Ninja(phantom) Vs Rogue

[7threalm]

So far by comparison ninja beats rogue by a lot, esp 27 ninja/3 shadow vs 27 rogue/3 shadow

The only real thing the ninja loses is opportunist in exchange for

+2 ac + wis mod ac
blind fight (takes a rogue feat slot)
blind strike (just strong)
crippling strike (takes a feat slot rogue)
improved evasion(takes a feat slot rogue)
the ability to hips 6 secs then immediately shadow walk = faster sneaks


I recommend to even it out give the rogue something perhaps a rogue only type feat
Improved opportunist (additional +4 ab when attempting sneak accounts) for a total of +8 so there is something that separates the two.

[Invoker]

So far by comparison ninja beats rogue by a lot, esp 27 ninja/3 shadow vs 27 rogue/3 shadow

The only real thing the ninja loses is opportunist in exchange for

+2 ac + wis mod ac
blind fight (takes a feat slot)
blind strike (just strong)
crippling strike (takes a feat slot rogue)
improved evasion(takes a feat slot rogue)
the ability to hips 6 secs then immediately shadow walk = faster sneaks


I recommend to even it out give the rogue something perhaps a rogue only type feat
Improved opportunist (additional +4 ab when attempting sneak accounts) for a total of +8 so there is something that separates the two.

Actually, I am pretty surprised.

Rogue is better than Phantom, and quite clearly, I think.

Rogue has more skill points (8x against 6x), the WIS to AC is irrelevant (as a Rogue, you generally want DEX and INT, and DEX gives you AC already...adding WIS to the attributes you need to invest in isn't an especially good idea), Phantom does not have UMD as a class skill, and then the biggest problem of them all: Phantom is terrible if you take less than 20 levels in it, despite all the huge buffs its BGTSCC implementation has received (Crippling Strike and Trapfinding, for instance. Those are really big.). The "original" Ninja is a veritable piece of crap.

Phantom's sweet spot is lvl 25 (you get IEvasion at 24), its best build mechanically being Phantom 25/SD 5. Rogue can match that kind of build, performing more or less the same, save for having more skill points while Phantom retains more survivability against certain enemies with instant Jaunt and Displacements (Rogue has UMD for that, though).

The enormous difference comes with Assassin into play, however: Phantom has nothing matching "combat" rogues like Ro/Asn/IB, Rogue/Asn/Monk, and my personal favourite Rogue/Assassin/Whirling Dervish, among others. This is to just discuss the melee builds. You basically can't go ranged with Phantom, unless you are ready to accept being a gimp (at that point, you can do everything...)

To sum up: Phantom tends to be weaker than combat Rogues, and inferior skill-wise to basically every Rogue build (say, Ro/SD/GT/WD), while having a very high survivability IF he doesn't get instagibbed by a save or die spell (because UMD is problematic, and the saves are as crap as Rogues).

[7threalm]

hips + invis is pretty strong

umd is the only down fall

phantom strike - prolly one of the best assassin type play abilities ignore concelmet

the umd downfail could prolly be fix with taking a umd class

24 phantom/3 Guild theif for umd/3 shadow at the cost of 1 epic feat? take able learner to make up the difference

[Invoker]

hips + invis is pretty strong

umd is the only down fall

phantom strike - prolly one of the best assassin type play abilities ignore concelmet

HiPS + Invis can be played by Rogues as well, with items and wands, when the situation requires it.

Phantom Strike is not so much better than Blindfight to be honest, and neither is very useful on BGTSCC.

Where is it that you miss Phantom Strike as a Rogue, if I may ask?

PS: 2 skill points less per level is a pretty big deal, tbh.

24 phantom/3 something/3 shadow at the cost of 1 epic feat?

Nononono, you need SD 5 for defensive roll...you need Epic Dodge, here.

[7threalm]

for assassin type play epic dodge isn't really a requirement, it just a nice safeguard

[Invoker]

for assassin type play epic dodge isn't really a requirement, it just a nice safeguard

I played my fair share of rogues on the server (including my current lvl 30 Ro/SD/GT/WD), and I have at least 5 friends that main a Rogue (often Assassins).

In my honest opinion, Epic Dodge is MANDATORY on BGTSCC.

Without it, you're food .

EDIT: allow me to elaborate.

BGTSCC is a server where mobs tend to have High HP, while Rogue builds should kill targets in one flurry out of stealth, and then enter stealth again before other enemies can engage them. Since killing enemies in one flurry, here, is hard to impossible depending on the situation, Epic Dodge ensures you won't get damaged by their retaliation as you get to kiting distance waiting for stealth.

Makes sense?

[chad878262]

The difference is that Rogue doesn't need to take 27 levels... 16 is usually the sweet spot, some go to 19. Rogue gains it's power by it's utility, Phantom is more like a monk where you want a LOT of base class levels. Rogue/IB/Assassin would be a better comparison to a Phantom/SD. Rogue is not the weaker class, it is stronger due to it's ability to cherry pick from other classes and still gain what the Phantom gets for staying pure.

[7threalm]

24 phantom/3 whirling dervish/3 shadow dancer

17d6
full umd/hid/ms/tumble/bluff
perfect twf
epic persion


10 base
+4 natural
+4 protect
+4 armor
+4 dodge
+4 shield (clicky)
+9 dex(+4 item or +3 item)
+1 (dodge feat)
+3 tumble
+2 phantom wise feats
+6(wis with +4 item
---------------
51 ac-

you add in the concelment bonus i doubt you will even get hit, plus all the extra tricks of a phantum

plus umd bonus etc

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261134

now rogue version
http://nwn2db.com/build/?261135




10 base
+4 natural
+4 protect
+4 armor
+4 dodge
+4 shield (clicky)
+10 dex(+4 item )
+1 (dodge feat)
+3 tumble

44 ac with epic dodge (45 with two wep defense)
17d6

out of the two I think phantom far excedes the rogue with more options, in my opinion

there is a big difference with monster ab 45 ac compared to 51 ac on the server

so the trade off is epic dodge and 44/45 ac or 51 ac and quick use abilities

.

[chad878262]

With epic dodge the first attack (at highest AB always misses, if by some chance that first attack missed and the second attack hits, well it's a miss)... So considering the difference between each subsequent attack bonus after first is cumulative -5 I fail to see how 6 or 7 AC is a 'monster difference' compared to having epic dodge. They seem relatively equal, at worst the Phantom is better by 2 AC, but this is countered by Epic Dodge making a first attack that hits (which may be a critical) in to a miss. I can't say I would take 51 AC over 45 + Epic Dodge, I would probably take Epic Dodge TBH.

[Invoker]

24 phantom/3 whirling dervish/3 shadow dancer

17d6
full umd/hid/ms/tumble/bluff
perfect twf
epic persion


10 base
+4 natural
+4 protect
+4 armor
+4 dodge
+4 shield (clicky)
+9 dex(+4 item or +3 item)
+1 (dodge feat)
+3 tumble
+2 phantom wise feats
+6(wis with +4 item
---------------
51 ac-

you add in the concelment bonus i doubt you will even get hit, plus all the extra tricks of a phantum

plus umd bonus etc

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261134

now rogue version
http://nwn2db.com/build/?261135




10 base
+4 natural
+4 protect
+4 armor
+4 dodge
+4 shield (clicky)
+10 dex(+4 item )
+1 (dodge feat)
+3 tumble

44 ac with epic dodge (45 with two wep defense)
17d6

out of the two I think phantom far excedes the rogue with more options, in my opinion

there is a big difference with monster ab 45 ac compared to 51 ac on the server

so the trade off is epic dodge and 44/45 ac or 51 ac and quick use abilities

.

Since you didn't link any Assassin build, I reckon you agree with me on that part, so I won't comment it any further. Let's just limit ourselves to the two builds you yourself presented.

PHANTOM BUILD

- You picked Aasimar, and min-maxed attributes (con and str 10) to try and make use of the WIS to AC bonus, which is commendable. However, that WIS would net you +3 AC (would be +5 with a +4 WIS item, yes, but good luck finding one with decent Hide/MS stats...), and your DEX 25 leaves behind at least +1/+2 AC with respect to your regular Rogue build on a +2 DEX race (Tiefling, Moon Elf, Halflings...). The gain is negligible

- Your Phantom build has medium BAB and no Expose Weakness. That's already a big no-no, if you ever want to kill anything decent on this server.

- Your skill points mean you have to give up crucial skills for this kind of builds, being able to max only three among Search (any trap not on Reflex will instagib you, so good luck there...186 HP...), Open Lock, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand (whch netted me some 800+k by the time I was lvl 30, never mind after...), Listen/Spot (no detection at all?!?! On such a character :O?!), Appraise (you live and die on consumables...at least a few points here would be nice), Set Trap (extremely important for this kind of class, especially if you want to make sure nobody is following you...but even to set up difficult kills, or prevent targets from escaping) and Heal (potions break stealth, kits do not...ergo, when AoE lands on you, and trying to crawl out of it means death just like coming out of stealth, you might want to be prepared...). Your build is pretty poor for such a character, skill-wise (14 INT isn't high, and Phantom is lower on skill points).

- Your AC calculation is not realistic, because items with those defensive values and sufficient hide/ms points are, to my knowledge, largely unavailable on the server (some have been added in the Epic Shop, but definitely not all). Never seen a sneak with a lot more than 40 AC. Those that go high, usually get around 44-45 AC, which without Epic Dodge and with below 200 HP means you're going to die...a lot.

ROGUE BUILD

Far from being amazing, take a look at this copy of yours:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261140

Much more functional.

- Expose Weakness
- Epic Precision
- Epic Dodge
- PTWF
- DEX 27 +3 Item
- SF Hide, MS & Stealthy for +5/+5 stealth off the bat (aside from higher DEX...)
- Decent skillset (which is half the build, when you play rogue)


You'd probably lose +1/2 AC somewhere between DEX/WIS bonus in comparison with the Phantom build, but there are ways to get it back for anyone interested (giving up Stealthy for TWD for instance).

Having to choose between the two, I don't think experienced sneak players would play the other build on BGTSCC.

And this, without even touching Assassin, where the gap increases in Rogue's favor, for the reasons Chad mentioned above.

[7threalm]

well im shooting for more the pvp side of things, i think the phantom has rogue beat on that. I agree rogue is more balanced pve wise, but phantom would be more cost effective.

with ptwf
8 attacks so thats 4 attacks that hit with sneak (17d6x 4) = 408 roughly
instant invis after the 4 sneaks hit (no wand animation)
8 attacks again, 4 hit (17d6x 4) 408 roughly

24 uses of ki step

if they hit

[Blackman D]

while pvp is considered for some things, it does not hold a lot of weight when it comes to adding something, especially if its solely for pvp reasons

[Invoker]

well im shooting for more the pvp side of things, i think the phantom has rogue beat on that. I agree rogue is more balanced pve wise, but phantom would be more cost effective.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I didn't realize that's what you were looking for.

If you mean Phantom vs Rogue, I don't think the former would win, unless the Phantom is able to see the Rogue (which is highly improbable, unless the Phantom has spot gear at the expense of stealth gear, so the Rogue can see him as well), and they literally end up trading blows for some reason (why would the Rogue do that, though...?!?Arena, maybe?No idea).

The Rogue would be able to simply never leave stealth and set trap after trap, until the Phantom dies, or use a scroll with a particularly nefarious spell to the same end.

If, instead, you mean Rogue vs X or Phantom vs X, it could be...it depends on whom you have before you. But I'd say Rogue has versatility on its side, which is never a bad thing in PvP...

while pvp is considered for some things, it does not hold a lot of weight when it comes to adding something, especially if its solely for pvp reasons

And...that.

[Snarfy]

24 phantom/3 whirling dervish/3 shadow dancer

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261134

I compared this to my rogue/etc build(which is top secret) for kicks...

- AC: yours is better by 2
- BAB: yours is 1 higher
- Melee/ranged/Main/Offhand AB's: Mine is higher by 2
- HP: yours is 6 higher, so the difference is negligible
- Saves: Your fort and will are higher, my rogues reflex and spell saves are better
- Sneak Dice: Yours is higher by 3d6
- Skill points: 311 for me vs your 264
- Feats: Yours... umm, lots of sneak attacks, PTWF...?? Mine: Crippling Strike, Expose, PTWF, Epic Dodge, Epic prowess & precision, plus an undisclosed amount of skill focus'.

I'd say the comparison was slightly in your favor until you get to the feats, and then the Phantom kind of falls apart. A different feat load out might save it but... meh.

I can tell you that I've been playing my rogue a loooong time, and last month I did give Phantom a whirl... let me just say that I wanted to bludgeon myself to death with a frozen fish by about level 8 - 9'ish. It was really just not a fun class for me at all.

* Edit * : This is the build I tried - http://nwn2db.com/build/?258195

[chad878262]

well im shooting for more the pvp side of things, i think the phantom has rogue beat on that. I agree rogue is more balanced pve wise, but phantom would be more cost effective.

with ptwf
8 attacks so thats 4 attacks that hit with sneak (17d6x 4) = 408 roughly
instant invis after the 4 sneaks hit (no wand animation)
8 attacks again, 4 hit (17d6x 4) 408 roughly

24 uses of ki step

if they hit

8 APR = 3 sneak attacks. You need 10APR to get a 4th sneak attack. There are 3 flurries in a round so you divide by 3 and round up (so 7-9 apr is 3 sneak attacks, 10-12 is 4).