My observations after "no grind at the other side" Upgrade

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Yesterday I saw a bunch of buffed humans and elves grinding the Upperdark. I tried to RP with them but they just ignored me. Can you imagine, for example, a group of svirfs and drow running across the Trade way to grind some gnolls, and paying no attention to surrounding surfacers? I can't. The irony is while surfacers can still grind the Upperdark, UDers can't grind areas around Soubar (technically those lawless lands are analogue of Upperdark for surfacers), so they have much, MUCH more content taken away from them. As you know, even before the update there were absolutely no drow grinding the surface.

There are two conclusions:
1) The surfacers are guilty in what happened to XP and loot mechanics.
2) The Underdarkers have suffered from restrictions much more.

I remember when I was new to the server and I occasionally found my way to the surface as a half-drow. I traveled to FAI and it ended up with me being permastriked after meeting the guards which is fair. Why don't you add some RP mechanics like this instead of XP restrictions? Removing the caravan route is quite enough.

P.S. Also there is a poll since the last topic about this update was locked due to flame

[Thorsson]

I think the upperdark should give no XP to surfacers. What I wouldn't want is a return to the days of Drows running along the Trade Way.

[Tsidkenu]

This very matter is currently under staff discussion and we do not need another public discussion on it at this time. This thread may be unlocked when staff have come to a final decision on it, which will be announced when it is ready.

[Tsidkenu]

Also, in order to quell concerns that this lock is stifling public opinion: if you wish to make your opinions about the change known in the staff discussion, please PM them to me directly and I will pass it on to the staff discussion.

[Endelyon]

No need to lock it as long as it doesn't come down to bickering about expectations between players and staff. Let's keep the discussion civil and just try to remember that the people who work on the module are unpaid volunteers.

[Valefort]

As far as I'm concerned I'd prefer if the upperdark wasn't as welcoming for surfacers, limiting their exp per reset (instead of a flat impossibility) could be a good way to send them back where they belong instead of staying in Upperdark for loot and exp reasons.

[Steve]

So, let's be clear on this:

Surface = only Surface-originating PCs can earn XP and Loot.
Upperdark = both Surface and Underdark-originating PCs can earn XP and Loot.
Underdark = only Underdark-originating PCs can earn XP and Loot.

Correct?

If so, then it seems that 2 "exclusive" sections of the Server get a "middle-ground" in which to share. Isn't that a good thing?

Because as was pointed out in the earlier locked threads, if there is a "need" to go full Underdark or Surface with non-originating PCs FOR ROLE-PLAY, that is still allowed (within good reason).

[Valefort]

Yes, correct facts. A handful of surface areas could be added as possibilities for Underdark characters to explore as well for fairness, extending the middleground zones. However there's nothing as clear cut as Underdark/Upperdark for surface areas.

[cosmic ray]

Some of the area builders might deserve a little payment.

I was going to start a thread speciffically about the upperdark case and how it makes little sense that surfacers have access to it when underdarkers have access to none of the surface's "uncivilized" areas or best grinds (upperdark may no longer be the best grind, but it is still one of the best). Is this being considered by the staff too?

I was going to start another thread on pvp problems started by surfacers against underdarkers, which never seem to raise as much uproar as those started by underdarkers against surfacers. Is this being considered too?

Regarding the OP, the only sensible, logical solution for people whose goal is good lore-based RP is lifting these restrictions. That was my vote.

For people more interested in contrived mmo-style Alliance vs. Horde mechanical limitations, keeping, and perhaps worsening, the restrictions will make the most sense.

And to follow on the previous posts, which were added while I was writing this, making the uncivilized surface areas a middle ground like the upperdark is now would go a long way to massively improving this situation, as I have been saying. Not just a couple of areas either. Keep in mind that the upperdark is ROUGHLY HALF of the total underdark area and it contains very good xp/loot sources, one town with quests and boss fights.

It is only fair that underdarkers get the same on the surface.

Tit for tat.

[adobongmanok]

Just a few things I want to point out as well:

As for grinding, I thought that the dynamic spawn was implemented to discourage grinders like ME to actually grind?

As for the reasoning of further enforcing the rule of "no UD char allowed in Surface without RP Reason", was there an incident that most of us didn't know that happened that led to this new implementation of the system? I've heard rumors, and also saw some things. But I'm not quite sure if I'm on the same page as everyone else who has citing a PVP-related event that led to this decision.

As for myself, the only reason I might seem adamant to raise the issue is that there's quite low numbers in terms of bosses that you could fight in the UD. Here's the typical conversation we epic levels get:

Me: Hey let's do something. How about some epic fight?
Friend: Balor AGAIN? Ugh, I want to slay some dragons. Let's go to the surface.
Me: Well, there's that cursed dragon by the crypt...though I can kill it in a few shots...

I would have no qualms if UD was big. But it is not and I don't blame anyone for it. I think the DM team and the volunteer coders did a great job in building it. Maybe, some compromise can be made where UD people and surfacers can cross a bridge, without holding hands together eh?

[Hoihe]

I have difficulty understanding why Underdarkers want to go to the surface when mobs there are balanced with ECL + 0 in mind compared to UD's ECL +2.

So, let's be clear on this:

Surface = only Surface-originating PCs can earn XP and Loot.
Upperdark = both Surface and Underdark-originating PCs can earn XP and Loot.
Underdark = only Underdark-originating PCs can earn XP and Loot.

Correct?

If so, then it seems that 2 "exclusive" sections of the Server get a "middle-ground" in which to share. Isn't that a good thing?

Because as was pointed out in the earlier locked threads, if there is a "need" to go full Underdark or Surface with non-originating PCs FOR ROLE-PLAY, that is still allowed (within good reason).

Quoting Steve for truth. It used to be much more difficult getting to Underdark/Surface than it is now, and honestly it was better. Had to deal with way less random for the lulz PvP.

About "Surfacers cause PvP issues in UD as well" - lorewise the only surfacers who would cause strife by nature are shevarashites, and there's maybe 1 or 2 on the server last I checked. Meanwhile UDers, barring Imaskari/Svirf, Eilistraeens and influence-focused drow are by nature going to cause trouble. Now, this might be skewed as a particular chaotic neutral "deity" has been encouraging drow raids of late.

The amusing part is that nothing prevents lulz pvp even now. But at least we removed an OOC incentive to cause trouble.

Furthermore, RP has no hinderance either. Now, you might argue "RP should be rewarded!", and RP XP does get rewarded, and I might argue the same but considering the risk the mechanical rewards give and their incentive; it's best not to risk the bad for the few good.

Regarding bosses - what about the Elder Brain and Illithid hive? Last I was in the UD, that was probably the hands down best area on the entire server.

[cosmic ray]

Then it can also be said that surfacers don't need to grind the upperdark if their goal is RP, since RP will still be allowed, even in the underdark proper.

Either a neutral zone really is needed and, in that case, it would be both logical and fair to split it between ud and and surface, which isnot the case now; or a neutral zone isn't needed after all, since RP will never be hindered by these rules, as some claim, in which case there is no need to make the upperdark available for surfacers to grind.

Of course I know that the only reason why the upperdark is an exception is because people don't wantto give it up as a source of loot and xp, but that is a BAD REASON.

Edit: were that not the only reason, the neutral zone would have included both surface and underdark areas, since if any side needs better adventuring content, it is the underdark and not the surface; but that was not done and the few members of staff that I have seen expressing an opinion on this particular discrepancy, have rather more evaded the question than addressed it by simply saying something along the lines of "there is separation but there also is contact - that is what the upperdark is for".

Now, we now there is contact. That was never in question, as anyone who has been around for even a short time can perfectly attest. What some of us are trying to say is something quite different, but for that you can scroll up or check the other threads.

[Flasmix]

UDers are actually allowed to fight in the Ogre caves in the troll claw hills area as well as Durlag's Tower and do the bosses there.

[adobongmanok]

Regarding bosses - what about the Elder Brain and Illithid hive? Last I was in the UD, that was probably the hands down best area on the entire server.

Right those Illithids with their annoying psionic annoyingness. Meanwhile on the surface, there's the dracolich at the vault, frost giant king, pit fiend and devil in Nashkel Mines, Pesky Gnoll Boss at Reaching Woods, Yuan-ti Boss, Dragon at Naga's, Elemental Rock at Serpent Hills, and probably more that I am missing. And oh yeah, Upperdark bosses.

Honestly, I have no qualms as to let the surfacers get more incentives since most people would want to start a surface char.

All we're asking for the UD is maybe expand area that can be accessed by UD chars while without having the rule "Must have RP Reason to Remain In Surface", mainly around Soubar area and the nearby areas since upperdark is readily available to surfacers.

OR

Lift the mechanical sanctions of exp discrimination and let things be handled IC.

This checks out lore-wise since there are mind-flayers and otherwordly beings in Soubar. This way, we can cross the bridge without holding hands together.

UDers are actually allowed to fight in the Ogre caves in the troll claw hills area as well as Durlag's Tower and do the bosses there

Didn't know that. I thought once you stepped out Ogre Cave you're pretty much violating the rule.

EDIT: Left a very important word out.

[cosmic ray]

UDers are actually allowed to fight in the Ogre caves in the troll claw hills area as well as Durlag's Tower and do the bosses there.

Both are hostile underground areas that pale in comparison to the upperdark's scope and possibilities.