Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/CU+

[Incarnate]

I suggest adding the option to target/using remains (bodies or bones) in the environment and specifically the option to target remains/bones in inventory to ensure the success of the spell.

Very often these spells belows fail because there are no remains that are being used, even slaying some monsters and then casting the below spells only seems to slightly affect the outcome, where the spells still might fail at producing anything - which essentially makes it a wasted spell slot.

Animate Dead
Create Undead
Create Baneguard
Create Greater Undead

So please, add something where the player has some control over its success, like having targettable remains/bones or even Meerschaum in the inventory as a substitute for Bone. Where depending on if it was remains it would animate a zombie, bones would animate a skeleton, using Meerschaum it could make a slightly weaker skeleton, as Meerschaum is a porous, clay-like stone used for pipes and small carvings, but also is suitable to use as a substitute for bones when used in animation spells. Meerschaum would have to be affected by the spell "stretchbone" which isn't a player accessible spell, but nonetheless could lore-wise support that Meerschaum bones could be found an used as well. Also, if a mechanic such as this was implemented it could mean that those nightly shovelling activity in cemetaries and graveyards might begin to happen more often, which of course would open up roleplaying possibilities, and for those who weren't very interested in taking this approach could through a bit of coin get around this.

Also, another approach would be to make the Stretchbone spell and make the replacement bone possible for players to create themselves.

[Valefort]

Uhm, only animate dead can fail and it's a dice roll, you could sit on a mountain of corpses and be unlucky (not saying it's good design, just how they work atm). I'll try to think of something.

[Incarnate]

Uhm, only animate dead can fail and it's a dice roll, you could sit on a mountain of corpses and be unlucky (not saying it's good design, just how they work atm). I'll try to think of something.

I've had Create Baneguard fail, I assume its the same with Create Undead.

Could what I suggested be a solution or a part of the solution?
If this could be a solution, then perhaps it could be possible to find imbued/augmented/unholy blessed materials for the casting, to improve the end result of the dead animated/created?

[Valefort]

No, I don't think the suggestion is doable but I'm not certain. One thing is sure, there won't be any power up.

[Incarnate]

No, I don't think the suggestion is doable but I'm not certain.

I know items in the inventory are targetable, as such, could an item be scripted to if target of X spell then do Y. Like cast Animate Dead on an item in the inventory, say an item with the name of Bones, then it outputs a spell variant of Animate Dead that doesn't have the roll scripted?

One thing is sure, there won't be any power up.

Better to ask while we're exploring the subject.

[Invoker]

My character usually creates 3 epic Undead with the spell (lvl 22). Without desecrating first.

That is to be added to the other even more powerful Undead (several) he can contemporarily have, via CGU, Shadow Simulacrum of Elite Vampire, Dominate/Control and what-have-you.

This is the answer: Summons are currently overpowered. Adjusting anything upwards would be nonsensical.

[aaron22]

i dont see this as a power up per se. maybe i am not fully understanding the suggestion. i see this as a RP opportunity for a necromancer build to go to a crypt/burial area.

player buys a shovel and digs at grave spots.
dice roll to see if suitable bone is found
suitable bone found
necromancer can use standard style to animate dead (0-4 can be summoned) or can instead target the inventoried bones that now gives a minimum roll of 1 (1-4 can be summoned)

this seems like a good way to get more RP out of raising the dead.

note: if baneguard requires a similar roll to summon then it too would increase chance of success.

[Invoker]

i dont see this as a power up per se. maybe i am not fully understanding the suggestion.

I think Valefort was referring to this, specifically:

Animate Dead is already underpowered for its level, so I wonder why its made so its potentially a wasted spell slot.

[Edit]
This spell is seemingly very underpowered compared to comparable-level conjuration spells - this is what I meant with: "Animate Dead is already underpowered for its level".

Which is a misguided wiki entry.

Animate Dead is, in fact, currently overpowered.

[Incarnate]

i dont see this as a power up per se. maybe i am not fully understanding the suggestion.

I think Valefort was referring to this, specifically:

Animate Dead is already underpowered for its level, so I wonder why its made so its potentially a wasted spell slot.

[Edit]
This spell is seemingly very underpowered compared to comparable-level conjuration spells - this is what I meant with: "Animate Dead is already underpowered for its level".

Which is a misguided wiki entry.

Animate Dead is, in fact, currently overpowered.

It was this he was referring to:

If this could be a solution, then perhaps it could be possible to find imbued/augmented/unholy blessed materials for the casting, to improve the end result of the dead animated/created?

---

i dont see this as a power up per se. maybe i am not fully understanding the suggestion. i see this as a RP opportunity for a necromancer build to go to a crypt/burial area.

player buys a shovel and digs at grave spots.
dice roll to see if suitable bone is found
suitable bone found
necromancer can use standard style to animate dead (0-4 can be summoned) or can instead target the inventoried bones that now gives a minimum roll of 1 (1-4 can be summoned)

this seems like a good way to get more RP out of raising the dead.

note: if baneguard requires a similar roll to summon then it too would increase chance of success.

I completely agree with it would positively affect the RP for Necromancers the theme about raising undead.

As with the suggestion, it was basically about implementing a means to ensure more successful castings of AD and CU. However, as Valefort pointed out CU and CB doesn't require corpses, so when they fail to produce any undead, something else would be at play.

[aaron22]

enhancements are not needed at all to create stronger undead. they are powerful enough and that is exactly where they should be. a temptation to join the darkside.

[Incarnate]

enhancements are not needed at all to create stronger undead. they are powerful enough and that is exactly where they should be. a temptation to join the darkside.

This was also in relation to what the wiki stated. The problem though with AD is that its not reliable, quite often you end up with no animated dead, which effectively means when that happens it was a wasted spell slot. I don't mind the amount being random which could result in you could end up with only one dead being animated and the type of it is more random, as in if its a warrior, defender, archer, etc. But its a problem that you can end up with ZERO being animated. I would be nice if less dead are animated, that for each not animated it would be just slightly better. It would also be nice if one could affect somewhat the outcome of what was animated in relation to the type, but not necessary.

..the important part is that AD becomes reliable, and as Valefort pointed it out, its a dice roll - so basically completely RNG, which could result in ZERO being animated.

By the way, the Meerschaum-bone I suggested, if implemented would become a very popular for necromancers obviously. The stretchbone spell could also be created, and it would seem there already is a spell that has a format that could be used for the purpose - Bless Water, as the spell outputs an item. So if the Bless Water spell was used as a template and then modified to output the meerschaum bone, and the meerschaum bone made as a consumable that if used just before casting of AD it would ensure at least one being animated - basically modifying the dice roll with +1 but still with the maximum cap in place, and if this was made to stack, then consuming 4 would yield +4 - which would ensure 4 being animated. Say the price of the item was still 115 GP's then it would be 460 GP's for a completely successful casting of it.

[mrm3ntalist]

If animate dead is made more reliable, then the HD of the spawns should be lowered a bit.

[Incarnate]

If animate dead is made more reliable, then the HD of the spawns should be lowered a bit.

Ok, could you make some examples on what would be appropriately balanced if its made more reliable?

Also please note, if its made more reliable with the use of items that has a gold cost, then that should also be taken into the equation, as per what I've suggested in the thread.

[aaron22]

If animate dead is made more reliable, then the HD of the spawns should be lowered a bit.

Ok, could you make some examples on what would be appropriately balanced if its made more reliable?

Also please note, if its made more reliable with the use of items that has a gold cost, then that should also be taken into the equation, as per what I've suggested in the thread.

it doesnt.
they don't care.

the casting of AD could consist of taking all your gear and leaving you 1 HP and it would not matter. IDK why, but i have approached things like this a few times before and it doesnt matter.

your better off not including any debts because the result is the same.

just ask for the AD to give 1-4 summons instead of 0-4

[mrm3ntalist]

enhancements are not needed at all to create stronger undead. they are powerful enough and that is exactly where they should be.

If summons are powerful enough to not need enchantment, then they are overpowered.

a temptation to join the darkside.

What is this? There is no intention to make any class/feat/spell more powerful in order to tempt players to play them. If something is more powerful than it should be, then most probably somewhere a mistake was made.

Edit: Highlighted for effect.