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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:20 pm 
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No one said any play style was/is wrong. However, you gloss over the fact that gold is relatively easy to obtain, it doesn't take a whole heck of a lot of commitment...

Anyone can become a 'grumpy vet', it just takes patience and time on the server. If you spend time playing the server and put any effort in to going out adventuring you will get loot, which will eventually equate to getting gold.

3 years ago, I was lamenting many of the same things...Except there were no epic shops, content was more difficult since even +4 (with no other bonuses) AC items or weapons cost 100's of thousands of gold (700K for +4 dodge boots, 500K for +4 amulet, 300-500K for +4 deflection ring, etc.) That was what the server was like in 2014/2015. Thus the same content we have today (or much the same) was being done with +3 items, maybe after a year you might have a +4 weapon or one +4 AC item if you're really lucky.

So yes, when I say something like it's "only" 100K for +4 dodge boots/amulet/deflection ring it really is "only" that amount, because it is pennies on the dollar compared to anything prior to epic shops being introduced.

In addition, Endelyon made loot drops more favorable, which has made it so gold is more easily acquired. A year or so ago an hour loot run might net you anywhere between 5-20K gold on average for a loot run (sprint), unless you got SUPER lucky. Now you would be hard pressed to earn less than 20K in an hour of almost leisurely adventuring. Just selling straight to a vendor at 1,300 gold will net you that after opening ~20 chests. Sure, some items will be junk, but many will not be.

Gold value has partially gone down because MORE players have it in 6 figure amounts. I personally have never hit 7 figures (though I honestly have never had that as a goal), but know plenty of players who have. 3 years ago there was maybe half a dozen players with those kinds of deep pockets, but now it is far more common.

There is nothing wrong with a playstyle such as having 5 or 6 PC's that you play maybe once every other week each, but especially at low levels you can't expect them to acquire individually what another player will acquire when really focusing on one PC, can you?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:49 pm 
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Chad, you're talking from your own experience, and people you know. That's an Availability Heuristic.

I you have 20 close friends and family and 18 of them, including yourself, are allergic to peanuts... you will have a tendency to over estimate the number of people in the world who are allergic to peanuts. If you have 20 close friends and family, and have never even heard of any of them knowing someone allergic to peanuts.... you will have a tendency to under estimate the number of people in the world who are allergic to peanuts.

You are a reknown powerbuilder (love your builds), and run with the Quality Control people and longtime players. That creates a deep seated bias within your core belief set, even when you try really hard to avoid bias. Other people here don't know anyone important, don't have any gold, and only know poor people. Who's life experiences are correct? They both are.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:13 pm 
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I appreciate the contradiction but no matter how you twist it it only takes time to find dusty tomes, diamonds and gold, even when you're completely new and clueless. The fact people sell tomes and diamonds can even quicken the speed of getting named summons .. I know plenty of players who are perpetually broke but they'll still eventually get their hands on one of those, it will merely be a bit longer because fortunately no tomes or canary/blue diamonds are sold in shops and thus there's no quick shortcut (otherwise everyone would be summoning named beings too...).

It's gated, yes : through time spent looting and that's an excellent thing !

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Again with the missing of points. I couldn't give a kobold's left arse cheek about these new summons. They only were used only to illustrate the problem of perceptions.

We do not have a problem with gold being devalued. We have a problem with overpopulation of veteran players. That's the same thing as saying we haven't enough newer players. We need more people like Niapet who are fairly new but sticking around. Those are people we should be catering to.

Repeatedly, over and over in this thread people have BEMOANED the Epic Shops. Frequently by the same people who LOVE gold sinks. Those shops helped new players. That's a positive change. It sets a goal to achieve, and a clear route to achieving it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:47 pm 
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But both points are terrible ... epic shops were not positive in the slighest and are not catering to new players with how inflated the prices are. They're not positive precisely because once you achieved that goal there's practially nothing better, it's the end, for that piece of gear, it's not a step on the road but the end.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Fair points Vogar, and I thank you for the praise. However, if you go back to 2014 you will find posts from me that are of a very different sort than today. I didn't start out as a good (or even adequate) builder. Other players like Thorsson, Aelcar, M3ntalist, Deathgrowl, matelenar and many others gave me lots of helpful advice to get started and then I just tried things out to see what I liked. My point is not that there is a wrong way, it's that players should at least make the effort to see what's out there and try taking some advice on how to accomplish whatever it is they are trying to accomplish. If you struggle to get enough gold for your purposes there are loads of players willing to show you some ways to have fun while doing so. You do not have to grind chests unless you really are trying to speed your way to a million. Just grabbing a group, going adventuring and understanding the value of certain items helps a lot.

RP and adventuring do not have to be zero sum...you can (and should!) do both at the same time.

For your viewing pleasure, a few posts from my first couple months as a member of our fine community. Certainly was not a member of QC at that time... :P


Subject: How to join the PW

chad878262 wrote:
Hi, I haven't played a PW in years (and years, and years...) In the past I recall having to submit a character for approval and such. I have read the 'getting started', 'rules' and many other posts, but am just wondering if I have to submit anything or just download the PW files, wipe my override and sign on? I literally have not played a PW since NWN1, and don't have a lot of time to play (which is why I haven't in a long time). However, I think I will have a little time Fridays as well as an hour or two early Saturday / Sunday mornings. Hoping someone out there can help me with getting started, also wondering if there are different starting areas (i.e. do Rangers/Druids start in the woods somewhere?)

thanks!



Subject: hints on where to adventure?

chad878262 wrote:
Hey everyone, hoping for some hints on 'safe' places to explore. I am currently level 5 but die fairly often due to going to an area or of my league. However, I don't much like going to the kobold ruins or sewers over and over. Is there a map or guide with ideas or hints as to what CL you should be for areas? I like meeting people in game but often just like to go explore but it's somewhat painful to keep losing my hard earned XP, which also delays my ability to explore more areas. Thanks for any advice you can give!


Subject: New Player? Introduce Yourself!

chad878262 wrote:
Hi there, been around about a month now and I'm loving it! Played allot of pnp when I was in middle school through early college as well as playing the gold box games through today's crpg's. Always missed pnp but can't really make the schedule for it so finally took the plunge and went searching for a pw. After a few weeks of searching and eyeing various forums this seemed like what I was looking for. Everyone is so helpful here and my rp experience has been amazing! For any other newbies I'll just say if you make a point to really rp you will meet the right folks to have an amazing adventure!

Thanks to all of the players, DM's and developers who have contributed to this wonderful environment!

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Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs
Valefort wrote:
I suggest steadfast determination.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Chad, I was a 'veteran' back then when you joined and were asking questions regularly. I've never had a problem with you, and remember your climb.

Actually, lets look at Cognitive Dissonance. Maybe this will better get some points across.

Player One:
1. "Gold has no value or buying power."
2. "+3 and +4 items are too cheap!"

Player Two:
1. "We want more player activity in cannon guilds."
2. "Lets marginalize new players through game design choices such as charging for item appearance alterations."

Player Three:
1. "The Epic Shops are terrible!"
2. "Epic Item Trading was terrible!"

Player Four:
1. "Lets nerf evasion to only work in light armor."
2. "Lets sell mithril breastplates and chainmail at NPC vendors."
3. "My god! The mithril full plate price is dropping!"

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Rashal - Lady's Man, "What do you call a male elf? Pathetic, as it were."


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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:13 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
For your viewing pleasure, a few posts from my first couple months as a member of our fine community. Certainly was not a member of QC at that time...


what a newb OMG

they let you play DnD at the school down south? thought it was just "go fish".

edit:
i think i am player 2. maybe i just resemble it somewhat.

my support of app changing costs did not come without the assumption of tayloring to fit the server's goals. perhaps a .5%-1% of the cost of the item to change the appearance. that would not be a huge cost to a new player. less than a single bone from the graveyard to alter a whole outfit.

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Last edited by aaron22 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:19 pm 
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I haven't taken anything from you personally Vogar so no worries on that side. I simply think that there is a bigger picture that is being lost in this discussion.

Vogar Eol wrote:
Player One:
1. "Gold has no value or buying power."
2. "+3 and +4 items are too cheap!"


I agree with Player One to a point. Gold does very much have value and is used often. If you consider Gold as Silver Pieces it works a bit better. 1 gold = 20 Silver so if you convert this way that thing you bought for 100K was actually 5K. See? :)

Vogar Eol wrote:
Player Two:
1. "We want more player activity in cannon guilds."
2. "Lets marginalize new players through game design choices such as charging for item appearance alterations."


I personally don't agree with charging people to use the app changer, but then I also rarely use it simply because I can't be bothered with the time sink, add a gold cost to it I would just use the base models for my equipment (which I mostly do anyway). I don't know it marginalizes newer players though. The mechanic could be designed to be 'free' for low level items like +1 armors and such and slowly increase to epic items costing more money... Pretty sure it was just thrown out as an idea though and likely not worth the effort of implementing IMO.

Vogar Eol wrote:
Player Three:
1. "The Epic Shops are terrible!"
2. "Epic Item Trading was terrible!"


My personal opinion is the Epic shops went too far. When they were going in I made a comment that they should be slightly worse then the epic loot drops that happen once in a decade. However, what went in were items that in many cases are better than what drops, which is unfortunate. The goal of epic shops was to bring those who don't have epic items the ability to get closer to those who are lucky enough to have them. Instead they became the new norm. I still think having epic shops is better than not having them, but feel it would have been better if weapons didn't include high DC effects with bonus damage and +4 EB, armor didn't have +4 AC and more extra's than anything you can find in loot drops and don't even get me started on a +3 Tower Shield with free Monkey grip! So yeah, don't agree with 1, but do agree that epic shops have somewhat reduced the issues with 2.

Vogar Eol wrote:
Player Four:
1. "Lets nerf evasion to only work in light armor."
2. "Lets sell mithril breastplates and chainmail at NPC vendors."
3. "My god! The mithril full plate price is dropping!"


1. One of the longest QC discussions ever... Damned if you do, damned if you don't... Many folks weren't happy with the state of players 'dipping' evasion classes while running around in MFP. *shrug* evasion only works in light/no armor in PnP so whatev's.

2. Yep, this issue was seen and attempted to address ahead of time. I suppose the MCM dropped to +3 enchantment is something, but truth be told many of us wanted Chainmail to be made equal with breastplate so heavier DEX investment was needed (20 modified instead of 18). And yes, the issue with +4 DEX bracer's was also a concern, but those that did not want +4 stat items sold lost that one so not much to be done.

3. All knew that would happen. *shrug* Progress?


Needless to say none are perfect and frankly QC has very little (zero) decision making authority. End of the day sometimes decisions are made with consensus, but other times Admins or Developers make a call, and that is fine. At some point there are certain issues where not everyone is going to agree within any group, even a relatively small community like this one. At that point someone has to have the authority to make a decision one way or another, yes?


aaron22 wrote:
what a newb OMG

they let you play DnD at the school down south? thought it was just "go fish".


Yeah, my teammates on the football team would have made fun of me so bad if they knew I was playing D&D too.... :P

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Tarent's Wands and Elixirs
Valefort wrote:
I suggest steadfast determination.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Yes, I know all those are extremely complex issues. I didn't pick those to really talk about them at length. Simply pointing out that from a detached viewpoint these viewpoints are silly self contradictions, largely fueled by emotion and a rationalization process.

Every one of the, from the price of items, to Epic shop hurting the game, and price of mithril full plate, to gold having no buying power... every one can from the last month, from a handful of players, in about four topics.

Some of these topics practically verge on personal vendettas. For example Steve and Simian in a recent one about RP'ing looked pretty hostile as an outsider. We need to realize other people who disagree with us exist. We need to realize other viewpoints can be just as valid and reasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:37 pm 
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But c'mon man...how could you possibly trust a monkey with RP?!?

:twisted: 0:)

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Vogar Eol wrote:
aaron22 wrote:
i have both gold rich characters and gold poor characters. i am still very much in favor of gold sinks that give you no advantage or very limited advantage mechanically.... like app changer cost.


How would this increase the popularity of our server over the long term? It wouldn't. A simple change like that will send people to Sigil shortly after logging in to try here.


Maybe item customization could cost money but have it cost a fraction of the value of the item and have a minimum cutoff of like.. 10k or 20k so it wont affect newer players?

Also get rid of the appraise skill.. it makes the epic items kind of cheep, I pay like 40% less for them and I'm not even a dedicated trader; just high INT and extra skill points.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:34 pm 
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This is server brags it's a role player server. Roleplayers largely love to customize their character's look. They take looks so seriously that they walk everywhere if anyone is watching. 10 to 20k is equal the cost of a single +3 item on the Auctioneer.

All such a change would accomplish, at any price point, is annoy people who are still developing an initial impression. That's the exact opposite of what you want to do to a new player trying to decide if this will be their home or not. May as well charge gold for leveling up for all the good it would do. I've met 4 new players in the last week who took their item appearance very seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Vogar Eol wrote:
This is server brags it's a role player server. Roleplayers largely love to customize their character's look. They take looks so seriously that they walk everywhere if anyone is watching. 10 to 20k is equal the cost of a single +3 item on the Auctioneer.

All such a change would accomplish, at any price point, is annoy people who are still developing an initial impression. That's the exact opposite of what you want to do to a new player trying to decide if this will be their home or not. May as well charge gold for leveling up for all the good it would do. I've met 4 new players in the last week who took their item appearance very seriously.


you may be right. Hard to know. There are probably better gold sinks.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is gold worthless to Vets?
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:50 pm 
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Steve wrote:
But c'mon man...how could you possibly trust a monkey with RP?!?

:twisted: 0:)

Still waiting for you to join my forum DM campaign, one that is tailored just for you!

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