Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

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Invoker
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Invoker »

With the kind of misinformation there is on Sshamath's setting (above all, people thinking The Conclave is "better" than the Lolthites, and the city is "safer" because of them...lol!), on the UD's population (Euro evenings easily see 12-15 UD players, often all or almost all of them RPing with me), on the very nature of the Drow (Dhaerow means "betrayer, traitor" and not only their elven kin knows them as that, but the entirety of the UD races) and on the UD in general (a surfacer casually strolling through the endless night below would probably go mad even before the horrors hiding under every rock and within every shadow claim them...not to mention a Drow venturing to the surface...It's like a vampire sunbathing in the Caribbeans), there is only one thing left to say about this:

Kappa.

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Steve
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Steve »

Harder is only relative when you’re in a game that doesn’t have consequence or death.

Because if you had those things, even Level 1 areas would become “hard,” and you’d have to completely rethink one’s “casual” role play.

But yea, beatadeadhorsewhydontcha.

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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Wolfrayne »

There should be almost no interaction between UD characters and Surface characters. There is no RP reason to do so with the exception of SOME of the evil guilds. Drow should not be a common conversation on the surface but more a whisper of something sinister in the dark. Just as people on the surface should not treat the UD as a place to go for a godamn stroll/lunch.

And dark elves should have no reason to go to the surface other than the occasional raid. What possible reason do they have to go there? Why? why traverse the dark for months to get to the surface to start a fight with a bunch of people, get their (hiney) kicked back to the UD and complain about it?

It should be almost impossible to transition between the areas. All it does is promote stupid interations because they sure as hell aint "RP"

This... This right here is the type of crap that has convinced me i will never roll a dark elf on this server. Its a joke.

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Invoker
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Invoker »

Wolfrayne wrote:There should be almost no interaction between UD characters and Surface characters. There is no RP reason to do so with the exception of SOME of the evil guilds.


I don't like absolutes, they limit creativity. I have always been open to characters embarking in the venture (they are great heroes, after all), but the setting should be respected in every circumstance. Failure to do so should bring catastrophic consequences.
Drow should not be a common conversation on the surface but more a whisper of something sinister in the dark. Just as people on the surface should not treat the UD as a place to go for a godamn stroll/lunch.
Yes. I would go ahead and state in no uncertain terms that kind of behavior is against the server rules, as it's hardly an attempt to "remain IC" or "respecting the setting".
And dark elves should have no reason to go to the surface other than the occasional raid. What possible reason do they have to go there? Why? why traverse the dark for months to get to the surface to start a fight with a bunch of people, get their (hiney) kicked back to the UD and complain about it?
Like before, I don't very much like absolutes. But I share the feeling it's taken overly lightly a tad too often.
It should be almost impossible to transition between the areas. All it does is promote stupid interations because they sure as hell aint "RP"
It's mostly that those doing it wrong deal a lot of damage to the setting, regardless of how many Drow players have excellent reasons to go up and of the solid RP they bring.
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

This.
Tekill wrote:The population. It is as low as it is NOT because of lack of interest. It is because of the current situation it is in.
Sooo, where to start? I agree about respecting the setting and all, but you have to agree as well that it is REALLY hard to RP that the journey to the UD takes weeks of pain and suffering when IG you can do it in 10 minutes with no problems (and I am not even considering teleport)

Most surfacers who visit Upperdark are grindmonkeys. Yes, those people who run around the Upperdark with tonns of shining buffs and several angel summons and then sell the garbage they looted at Kro's in Rockrun. They would probably ignore you completely whenever you try to interract with them, try to act like a normal drow should (attack them), and they would run crying to DMs. If you ask me, I think that it is up to DMs to do something with a certain percentage of players who treat this PW as just another MMORPG. Start educating them or come up with new rules about AFK grind — whatever. It is not an elitist attitude, this is a common sense.

About drow who must be evil — arguable. Yes, certainly they would most likely be vile and cruel, but it doesn't mean you have to restrict your RP possiblities to just another cruel Lolth priestess. Of course, creating a good aligned drow while still respecting a setting is a big RP challenge, but it is possible, and isn't it exciting? About dromon — matter of tastes.

About the laws of the lands — I always find it quite ironic that the real bastion of evil is Baldur's Gate, while Sshamath is a tolerant haven for all sorts of people no matter who they worship and how they look. It is not how we treat it as players — it is written in the Laws of the land. Basically, as a surfacer you can freely stalk the Upperdark (nearly half of content available to UDers) and freely travel to Sshamath and Rockrun, and even be treated equally to others no-drow (half-drow, tieflings, etc), while everyone with black skin and white hair on the surface is supposed to be murdered with no words. Really, consider it, and then tell me — is it a healthy ground for evil RP? The most fun part is that in the Original series you could take a drow companion with you to Baldur's Gate, she was despised, but tolerated. The server doesn't make any exception for that.

As for restricting crossrealm communication even FURTHER — arguable according to the setting and totally bad according to the game design. Yes, I would always tell that the "no grind at the other side" update sucks. Several month have passed, and what we see? Grindmonkeys grinded the Upperdark before the update, they grind it now, while UD characters have much, MUCH less possibilities, and this especially true for tieflings and ESPECIALLY for orcs. Please rollback this update or at least expand the neutral zone to the Northern surface territories. Why don't you, instead of taking away the freedom of the UD characters over and over, approach it differently, as, for example, creating some new UD areas or running more events? Yesterday I occasionally took part in DM Omega event. Not that I play here for centuries, but it was the first UD DM event on my memory, and it was amazing! More stuff like this! More content, more events — this is the healthy way to approach it, not reducing player possibilities by scripts.
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Invoker »

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sooo, where to start? I agree about respecting the setting and all, but you have to agree as well that it is REALLY hard to RP that the journey to the UD takes weeks of pain and suffering when IG you can do it in 10 minutes with no problems (and I am not even considering teleport)
It's not so much how easy or hard it is. It's a matter of RP culture. I could bring my Drow to the Farmlands, and anyone there would find the character not so easy to dislodge, much less kill, since he's very powerful. I could do the same with my elven mage going to the UD.

The problem is not how easy it is to do something, but whether it's good for those around us. It's a matter of respect, or lack thereof. A lack of respect that causes a lot of damage, regardless of the (surely comparatively small) amount of instances it actually takes place.

Respect for the setting, surely. And MUCH more important, respect for our fellow players, and their time and RP investments.
About drow who must be evil — arguable. Yes, certainly they would most likely be vile and cruel, but it doesn't mean you have to restrict your RP possiblities to just another cruel Lolth priestess. Of course, creating a good aligned drow while still respecting a setting is a big RP challenge, but it is possible, and isn't it exciting?
As with all things, depends on the degree of commitment the player in question displays. Some players spend weeks, even more, to prepare backgrounds for their characters, research the environment, "feel" the RP. Those Eiliastreen Drow have been, and are, excellent for the server.
About the laws of the lands — I always find it quite ironic that the real bastion of evil is Baldur's Gate, while Sshamath is a tolerant haven for all sorts of people no matter who they worship and how they look. It is not how we treat it as players — it is written in the Laws of the land. Basically, as a surfacer you can freely stalk the Upperdark (nearly half of content available to UDers) and freely travel to Sshamath and Rockrun, and even be treated equally to others no-drow (half-drow, tieflings, etc), while everyone with black skin and white hair on the surface is supposed to be murdered with no words. Really, consider it, and then tell me — is it a healthy ground for evil RP? The most fun part is that in the Original series you could take a drow companion with you to Baldur's Gate, she was despised, but tolerated. The server doesn't make any exception for that.
It's just rules. Everyone (or most of us, anyway) knows what to do to make everyone around feel good about the game, and about the RP in general. Going against it and counting on loopholes in the ruling statements to get away with it is poor taste. A bit like those obnoxious jokers summoning undead in front of obviously good-aligned people, and then hiding behind the PvP rules to avoid conflict.
As for restricting crossrealm communication even FURTHER — arguable according to the setting and totally bad according to the game design. Yes, I would always tell that the "no grind at the other side" update sucks. Several month have passed, and what we see? Grindmonkeys grinded the Upperdark before the update, they grind it now, while UD characters have much, MUCH less possibilities, and this especially true for tieflings and ESPECIALLY for orcs. Please rollback this update or at least expand the neutral zone to the Northern surface territories. Why don't you, instead of taking away the freedom of the UD characters over and over, approach it differently, as, for example, creating some new UD areas or running more events? Yesterday I occasionally took part in DM Omega event. Not that I play here for centuries, but it was the first UD DM event on my memory, and it was amazing! More stuff like this! More content, more events — this is the healthy way to approach it, not reducing player possibilities by scripts.
In your own words:
Most surfacers who visit Upperdark are grindmonkeys.
Seems like the script should be even more restrictive, indeed. As for DM events and content: yes. And it's not in opposition to scripts, but on the contrary, fully in harmony with them.
This twisted culture got you feeding from its hand
But you will lose that food if you don't meet all their demands
And loyal is the soldier that gets slaughtered with the lambs
Examining the blueprints got you questioning the plans
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

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Subject: Upperdark
Steve wrote:The Underdark consists of the Upperdark, Middledark, Lowerdark.

The geology of the Upperdark and the Middledark is super hostile. Based on Canon Lore books, the combination of disorienting tunnels, claustrophobia, stale air, extreme silence—drives you mad—, lack of food and potable water, disease, "living" rock and fungi that itself is poisonous, and then add on top of that the denizens of the Upperdark, that just get more wicked as your get deeper....

Yeah, it shouldn't be that difficult to get around in there!! :lol: 8-)

But seriously, even Canon Lore books describe how Sshmaath has human and Elvens living there, even as free beings, though are "kept in check" by the Ruling forces. So it isn't as if there is no connection between Sshmaath and the Surface.

Essentially it comes down to how Players treat the Upperdark and on-their-way-to-the Middledark, or Sshmaath (as that is our Server's only Drow city).

If Players treat the Upperdark as a metro line, and us it like a daily commute, that is what it will become. If DMs also support this via action or inaction, then as well, it will become solidified in the consciousness of the Server, and it will become a RP-light background to whatever OOC desires are the flavor of the day, of the individual.

However...if Players treated it AS difficult, scary, violent, awful, worthy of the legends of Lore and did not abuse its existence from OOC motivations, and, the DMs also made sure that through RP interactions and Events, the entire Underdark that is in-game is not experienced as weak mechanical challenge but something that is more-on-the-chance-of-failure-than-success...for this is Canon Lore..., then possibly, the stories would become richer.

Personally, I don't know why the Upperdark wasn't made one of the most difficult regions on the Server, both mechanically and RP-wise, as that is how it is in Canon Lore.

The Underdark is harsh, one of the harshest environments on Toril, often compared to conditions of difficulty equal to the harshest deserts on the Surface. If you don't believe me, I suggest you go read your copy of Underdark, or even, preview it here (if you don't own it).

Check out for yourself just how crazy insane it would be to, not only travel there from the Surface, but...get the hellz out of it, alive!!

Then decide if you are going to be a RP'er that upholds that Lore, or not.

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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by broham1 »

If there are too many drow on the surface, or too many surfacers down below... Handle it IC. It breeds RP and fuels stories for DM's. The areas don't need to be made more difficult. The RP they run into on the surface needs to be or vice versa. All of it can be handled in game. I know this for a fact.

There will always be those that ignore the RP. Just pay them no attention and push forward. Start a player driven campaign. The DM's will love it and those that are RPing around you will too.
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Nemni »

You cannot on one hand let players level to 30, get epic spells and abilities, and on the other hand expect them to RP being terrified of the underdark. You can't let them battle and defeat liches and dragons, let them summon angels and devils, and then expect them to be deathly afraid because there might be mind flayers downstairs. You can't let tieflings walk around completely free and then expect everyone to 100% reject the idea that a drow might be non-evil. And if people do RP drow as non-evil, and other players encounter them, you can't expect them to always disbelieve what their own eyes show them in favor of what is written in a lore book that the char never read.

I mean many players might wish none of the above was true and that the server was different, more toned down. But it is what it is, so it would be nice if people were a bit more realistic and consistent with their demands on other peoples RP (or you know, just mind yourself).
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

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What is the point then, in general, if there is no sense of danger? (and after defeating dragons/liches/balors/avatars/etc.?)

Is all that is left is drinks around the bar and cakes at tea time? Be it in BG or in Sshamath?!?

EDIT: or maybe the most active "gaming" on BGTSCC is playing out mechanics of builds, day in, day out. And Loot Runs...can't forget those! Oh snap...no wonder the Upperdark is so POPULATED!!!

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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Kiran »

In my opinion (And like (hero), we all have one) be the change you want to see.

I love consequences and permadeaths, I know not many do them, but I have now had 3 chars I loved playing die, all to roleplay with PC's and dealing with consequences.

In turn, I also surround myself rp wise with like-minded people who do not mind consequences, both on the surface and below.

Don't blame others for what the server is, make the change you want to see and find people who will help you do so and agree with you.

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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Nemni »

Steve wrote:What is the point then, in general, if there is no sense of danger? (and after defeating dragons/liches/balors/avatars/etc.?)
The point is always what you make of it yourself, I suppose. It's not as if there isn't any danger if you want there to be. The next lich can still kill you, and you can deal with those consequences as you please. And among other players there are of course always those more dangerous than you. I'm just saying that the idea that characters wouldn't venture into the underdark (or UDers venture up) is unrealistic. Most of us aren't playing commoners after all, but various sorts of adventurers. The sort of people who don't make the safest choices.
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Ariexedes »

Kiran wrote:In my opinion (And like (hero), we all have one) be the change you want to see.

I love consequences and permadeaths, I know not many do them, but I have now had 3 chars I loved playing die, all to roleplay with PC's and dealing with consequences.

In turn, I also surround myself rp wise with like-minded people who do not mind consequences, both on the surface and below.

Don't blame others for what the server is, make the change you want to see and find people who will help you do so and agree with you.

We all are different!
I can greatly agree with this, that no one else is taking a threat seriously. And really not just UD related, don't get me started here twice now am on my drow in kro's (yes I know not UNDER dark so it's 'neutral ground' ) and came across a surfacer hooded and everything taller then me and didn't seem to want to rp even though I was trying to ' rp me away out' was me and two others or three all drow we cornered him and he's sitting there sassing us then and I asked him to remove his helm. Four times (due to server rule give them a rp out blah blah blah ) and after the last warning I 'drew my blade' and marked him hostile, instant hips and stopped and ignored all rp and walked away ignoring us.

Same day now leaving the lab same group of drow with me, came across a surface elf and dwarf unmasked so knew what they were looking at them. came around the corner elf just hipsed and dwarf was sitting there calling us out mocking and what ever else, wasn't dealing with them this time to walked THROUGH them and still mocking a group of three drow that without server rules would have slaughtered them, yay more red tape cocoons for the ebils and green lights for goodies, all of them were down there for a 'loot run' nothing else.
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Re: Make Upperdark Harder... like impossible to solo harder.

Unread post by Steve »

Nemni wrote: The point is always what you make of it yourself, I suppose. It's not as if there isn't any danger if you want there to be.
This goes right back to the OP: You and the group you surround yourself with are RPing that the Underdark is the place of nightmares, and someone else comes along and says "Yeah, those Drow...I just bought a six pack from Darky the other day in Bartertown Ssmathy...boy, do those black skins talk funny!!"

:|

If the answer to Canon Lore breaking Role-play is simple to isolate yourself—and some friends—to a clique group that only interacts with itself, and consequences only matter to itself, you are essentially going against an Open World/Sandbox game server environment, where one should not be ignoring the actions/experiences that happen in-game and in-character.

Yes, I fully agree that by Level 30, a Character has slaughtered almost every type of Epic Monster that the Sword Coast could possibly conjure up, and its not like those Foes are called Pseudo-Balor or Decrepit-Dragon, but actually the REAL THING of IG nightmares...and most likely, your PC's death (if this was PnP).

Thing is, and I say this with not only honesty but experience, I can no longer count on my fingers and toes the number of Players that have tried to uphold a sense of "make the RP like you want it" and REALLY apply themselves to upholding a decent sense of Canon Lore, but have quit the Server because they just get so "put off" by trying with that attitude, and far far far too often having someone come by IG and literally say: "Hey Dude, we're bout to get our hunt on and run the Balor/Frost Giant/White Dragon today...wanna join up and what's your level?"

:shock:

I'm also not saying Characters—not Players!—might be Epic Adventurers and are willing to risk it all to venture into the Upperdark/Underdark...but for Ao's sake, make it as difficult as possible, which supports Canon Lore, than the cake walk OOC loot/grind spot that it turned out to be.

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