Shadow Dancer Suggestions

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Tanlaus
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Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

I have a 30 Shadow Dancer. Two actually, split between the surface and UD. I’ve played with the class for enough time to get to know it pretty well.

Most people who use it just take three levels for HiPS, however going to 10 does offer some nice perks. Not exactly a power build, but a fun class to play.

This post was inspired in part by a post in the class build sub forum and in part by reading some of the similar perks coming to the new Feytouched class.

My desire is to solve some easily fixable problems taking the class all the way to 10 without empowering class dips, which tend to be power builds anyway.

My two cents on shadow dancer love...

1) Put daze on a timer. It would still be useless to people who only dip but useful for people who take the class to max level. Still not as good as an assassin’s stun but potentially useful nonetheless.

Chad of the many moving numbers suggested lowering the timer as levels progressed. I think that’s a great idea too as it rewards investment in the class and does nothing for dips.

2) shorten the timer on the teleport. It’s nice to be able to jump to ranged opponents in the fly, or possibly escape from a high spot opponent. But the cool down keeps it from being used even once a fight.

Even if the cool down we’re 1 minute or 2 minutes would it be abusable? I know personally I would use it more but not sure how I could abuse it.

With assassins also having HiPS I feel like the teleport is almost more the shadow dancer’s signature ability. Also it’s a change that does nothing for class dippers.

This actually just occurred to me when I noticed the cool down for Feystep on the new Feytouched class is 17 rounds which is 1:42 vs 5 minutes for a shadow jump.... I call shenanigans!!!

Again as a level 10 ability it only effects people who take the entire 10 levels. Which by the nature of doing that pretty much rules out any kind of power build. No matter how you slice it, 10 levels of shadow dancer cuts into DPS vs any other rogue build, making a shorter teleport timer difficult to abuse.

3) Give the shadow more points in hide and move silently. It lasts longer and is more useful when you can pick and choose your fights. Doesn’t really make him stronger but does allow you to play more tactically.

Also, it’s a shadow, it should be able to hide pretty well.

Even in the under dark where it should by it’s very nature be practically invisible, I assure you it is not.
c2k
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by c2k »

All the movement abilities(Shadow Jump, Teleports, etc.) have long timers because someone would figure out an efficient route using those abilities to hit all the chests on the server in amazing time. This may have been more prevalent when chests were getting ninja looted, but I doubt there is reason to lessen it. Perhaps a new feat to coincide with it that has like a 1-2 minute CD that allows to you to port to an enemy? Still might be broken depending on the type of sneak you are and would have to be tested. Perhaps even make it a whole round action that is a one-shot sneak attack? I'm just theorycrafting now, but Shadow Jumpas it is is still fast travel.

I don't know if Shadow Daze can ever be good, as Mind Affecting spells are thwarted very easily and most epic encounters are immune to them.

I think the class has received enough attention though, considering taking 10 levels in SD means you will probably have Epic Dodge as well.
Tanlaus
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

c2k wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 7:36 pm All the movement abilities(Shadow Jump, Teleports, etc.) have long timers because someone would figure out an efficient route using those abilities to hit all the chests on the server in amazing time. This may have been more prevalent when chests were getting ninja looted, but I doubt there is reason to lessen it. Perhaps a new feat to coincide with it that has like a 1-2 minute CD that allows to you to port to an enemy? Still might be broken depending on the type of sneak you are and would have to be tested. Perhaps even make it a whole round action that is a one-shot sneak attack? I'm just theorycrafting now, but Shadow Jumpas it is is still fast travel.

I don't know if Shadow Daze can ever be good, as Mind Affecting spells are thwarted very easily and most epic encounters are immune to them.

I think the class has received enough attention though, considering taking 10 levels in SD means you will probably have Epic Dodge as well.
You're theory crafting but have you actually played the class?

Shadow Jump is line of sight. So unless there's a dungeon with a bunch of really far away line of sight chests, it would not help you loot faster. And even with a 1 minute timer it would probably be faster to just run to them than wait for it to refresh. It's useful for jumping behind targets engaged with someone else, especially your own shadow. And I'd argue that considering Shadow Dancers sacrifice a fair bit of DPS to get the ability, it would be nice to make it as useful as the monk's and now feytouched similar ability.

Shadow Daze may not be the most useful CC in the game, nor should it be, but with a 30 dex it's a DC 30 daze which, while there are plenty of things immune, it still can work. Be nice to make it more than RP fluff.

And again, I'm not suggesting a total rework to the class, just a few small tweaks that could help in the ultility vs DPS trade off that the class basically is.
c2k
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by c2k »

I have played shadowdancers, which is why I know the class pretty much seys you up for Epic Dodge if you max it.

Shadow Dancer is a defensive class. You get a lot of defensive capability, especially for a rogue , if you go all 10 levels.
Tanlaus
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

c2k wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 11:43 pm I have played shadowdancers, which is why I know the class pretty much seys you up for Epic Dodge if you max it.

Shadow Dancer is a defensive class. You get a lot of defensive capability, especially for a rogue , if you go all 10 levels.
Sure, you can play a 21 R/9 A and still get epic dodge on top of 16d6 sneak attack and a whole slew of self buffs.

Or several variations of that which include bodyguard or invisible blade levels and also get epic dodge,

R 17/SD 3 gives you HiPS, more skill points, higher sneak dice and enough extra rogue feats for precision and epic dodge.

Thief Acrobat builds help qualify for epic dodge along with a nice AoE stun...

There’s tons of ways to reach epic dodge without 10 SD. That qualifier is hardly unique.

I’m just hard pressed to see why you’re against small improvements.
c2k
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by c2k »

I'm not against small improvements, but I know why the abilities that allow you to jump from place to place have time restraints for a reason.


Look, Shadowdancer shouldn't even have Shadow Jump, it was added to improve the class and make that level 10 much more rewarding. But sometimes you have to ask when is enough enough? Regarding Shadow Daze, ok, make it better, but Shadow Daze is still subpar because of the meta on the server. but if you want to make it that much stronger, that's fine. But Shadow Jump is what it is. And if Feystep really is the same as Shadow Jump but with a greatly reduced cooldown, maybe Feystep needs to be the ability brought into line.
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Blackman D
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by Blackman D »

daze will always be bad no matter what gets done to it as long as its daze, there is no reason to touch it more, sure a timer would let you use it more but its not exactly worth using daze over evade if you are worried about multiple enemies

SD are suppose to have the jump, it is one of their pnp abilities, however in pnp its extremely limited, you couldnt jump clear across a map in pnp with it and its feet per day and not on a timer... so yea jump is one of those be happy with what you got now things

the shadows MS should be maxed out, at least it was when i made it, because you cant hear shadows (which is their normal trait) the hide is a bit irrelevant without hips and the AI cant have hips

and sure there are other ways to get epic dodge, but SD is the only path where you get all the prereqs for free which lets you use your feats on other stuff, so you really cant compare SD with any other epic dodge build, granted SD itself has a decent number of feat prereqs itself

but as the one who got all the SD changes done, i cant say there is reason to give them any more than what it has now, all their abilities are way more useful than their original states and any more starts to cross the line of making SD too powerful
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Tanlaus
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Blackman D wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 1:51 am daze will always be bad no matter what gets done to it as long as its daze, there is no reason to touch it more, sure a timer would let you use it more but its not exactly worth using daze over evade if you are worried about multiple enemies

SD are suppose to have the jump, it is one of their pnp abilities, however in pnp its extremely limited, you couldnt jump clear across a map in pnp with it and its feet per day and not on a timer... so yea jump is one of those be happy with what you got now things

the shadows MS should be maxed out, at least it was when i made it, because you cant hear shadows (which is their normal trait) the hide is a bit irrelevant without hips and the AI cant have hips

and sure there are other ways to get epic dodge, but SD is the only path where you get all the prereqs for free which lets you use your feats on other stuff, so you really cant compare SD with any other epic dodge build, granted SD itself has a decent number of feat prereqs itself

but as the one who got all the SD changes done, i cant say there is reason to give them any more than what it has now, all their abilities are way more useful than their original states and any more starts to cross the line of making SD too powerful
I have the pet commands to hide, follow, attack and hold on my hot bar. Pre epic content I can choose to have the shadow hide and follow while I hide, bypassing fights that would overwhelm it. It’s a nice tactic that ends up falling apart with epic content because spot scores go up dramatically.

It’s useful because while the shadow itself really is a nice companion in its current state it’s far from too powerful.

Regardless thanks for the changes that you made. They really make the class fun to play.
chad878262
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by chad878262 »

It is odd that otherworldly leap has a timer of 30 seconds, new feytouched of 1m 42s (as it currently stands), and monk is no cooldown (though uses stunning fists if you use it more than once per 2 min). I would say that Shadow Dancer, regardless of any other argument is the weakest of the builds that get's them. Now, previously you could argue that Warlock and Monk are base classes while Shadow Dancer is a PRC. However, Feytouched will also be a PRC, and one for two of the strongest base classes in the game (yes Sorc stops at 6, but there are plenty of PRCs to get cool extras on a sorc). So from the perspective of timers, I would say that either a) Otherworldly Leap, Fey Step, and Ki Step should have their timers extended (my personal preference) or b) Shadow Step should have it's timer reduced somewhat.

Not everything *must* be equal and in fact never will be in any D&D game since the core mechanics themselves are simply not balanced to be equal. However, I would say in this case it's fairly obvious we have a case where these various similar abilities were created/implemented at different times and possibly different developers with varying ideas of what was balanced for such an ability. There is no harm in bringing them closer to a similar timer. It would be one thing if the lowest timer was 2 minutes and the highest 4, but to have a situation where a class that can pretty much solo the entire server is able to 'leap' every 30 seconds (plus potentially an additional time ever 17 rounds with some minor risk) while a PRC that if taken for 10 levels in a build has much more difficulty solo'ing at least some end game content has a timer 10 times as long is an arbitrary restriction.

Personally I would argue to make 1 minutes the minimum cooldown for these abilities and 3 minutes the maximum, except wih Monk where I personally think it is fine to give them the option to utilize it more often but at a cost of their stunning fist uses. They spent a feat on it after all. I also think it is fine for Warlock Otherworldly Leap to have a shorter cooldown than others as they have to spend a dark invocation on it so it does need to compete with a lot of other great abilities. I just happen to think 30 seconds is far too short, with Eldritch Spear they can basically just "kite" enemies on most maps and will only have to 'deal' with them getting in melee range for maybe a round or two before they can use leap again.

*shrug* as always things are fine as they are, nothing is going to break that hasn't already. :D In addition, lore considerations and PnP mechanics should always be taken into account as BMD calls out. Maybe it's better for Shadow Dancer to have no timer, but simply get 3 or 5 uses per day of shadow jump since that more closely aligns to PnP 'feet per day' mechanic?
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c2k
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by c2k »

What if Shadow Jump uses Uses of Shadow Evade?
Tanlaus
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

c2k wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 7:36 am What if Shadow Jump uses Uses of Shadow Evade?
You’d probably need to add more uses of shadow evade then, since it maxes out at 3...

Also monks can use stunning fist uses, which they have much more of, to shorten the timer, which is already shorter than a shadow dancer’s.

But shadow evade is a fairly powerful ability. I think 3 a day is probably all you want for it.

To echo Chad’s point, I’m more interested in brining it in line with every other similar class ability than manipulating it in a way to make shadow dancer much stronger.
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tankteddy
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by tankteddy »

Ki step requires a 2 min cool down OR 3 uses of stunning fist for a shorter cool down.

Wand of dimension door shorter CD 200g per use.

Fey step is a Random teleport unlike Ki step and such where you get to pick your location

Shadow step change I would make (if I could script) is to make it unlimited use Ki step on a 1-2 min cool down or so. Using the script from Orc and Drow Light blind make it so Shadow step can only work inside, at night, or in other shadow areas and if possible a short range to into melee range.

If I remember correctly shadow step is basically fading into a shadow and reappearing from another. Kind of hard to do that in direct sunlight. Lower cool down with no limit to uses but ONLY in darkness.
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Blackman D
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by Blackman D »

yea you are right, you need to be within like 10 ft of a shadow to jump thru it and come out of another shadow, and it cant be your own shadow

however with sunlight, there are shadows everywhere, unless you are in an open field with no tall grass at high noon... by yourself... so the daylight thing is arbitrary

and even at high noon i would just grab a scroll and throw it in the air and jump in the shadow it would cast on the ground :dance:

tho i suppose you would end up trapped in the shadow plane for a while :think:
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chad878262
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by chad878262 »

wands of darkness, cloak of the bat, etc.... ;)

BMD is speaking PnP mechanics, but there is also a readily available way to impose darkness mechanically within NWN2 as well. :P
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Stolcor
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Re: Shadow Dancer Suggestions

Unread post by Stolcor »

Just want to echo that it's silly for Shadowdacer to have the worst short-range teleport option in the game.

And thief a acrobat is a pretty great route to epic dodge that costs 3d6 less sneak dice for anyone with 10 or more rogue levels, which is probably the case for most epic dodge builds. And TA gets an awesome stun plus knockdown immunity - a huge boon to low str characters. And rogues can get all the other SD perks, except HiPS, with their bonus feats while keeping sneak dice. There's also whirling dervish to get defensive roll while still gaining some sneak dice. Even the displacement ability is easily replicated by cloaks that require 0 skill points and are fairly common and cheap coupled with potions of stoneskin. Shadow jump should, IMO, be the best short-range teleport since it costs 10 whole levels that get you almost nothing you can't get elsewhere, usually with more perks along the way.

It doesn't need to be be spammable, but 1 minute seems like plenty.
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