100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

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Tanlaus
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Tanlaus »

One thing I really like about the RCR token idea is that it seems like a nice compromise. People who need to fix a build without going through the grind can do it. But it prevents the extreme day to day changes that can be pretty immersion breaking.
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Deathgrowl
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

Bobthehero wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:39 pm It also affects those who have legit reasons to want to rebuild their PC. It's the usual ''punish everyone for the action of the few'' mentality at work, I guess.
Maybe, but in those cases, there usually are rules in place already to deal with the issue, and new ones are added unnecessarily on top of that.

I'm happy to be persuaded to a different view of RCR, but you would have to assuage our concerns somehow first with a suggestion to simultaneously deal with those. Preferrably without adding to DM workload, since that appears to be important to these things.
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Bobthehero
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Bobthehero »

There is no way to fix your build or mistakes without taking a XP hit and having to level up all over.
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Alonso
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Alonso »

Deathgrowl wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:58 am
The fact that it is tedious is a good thing for those of us who are and have been against 100% RCR. It's a mitigating factor, a hurdle to get over. Someone thinks "oh, should I try this out?" and has to consider the cost of doing so. It prevents a lot of silliness that we saw much of during the 100% RCR periods of the past.

Essentially, the easier it becomes to change things about a character with no real cost, the more often it is going to happen. That means the drastic 30 charisma / 8 wisdom sorcerer to 8 charisma / 30 wisdom druid kind of changes will also happen more often.
My two cents would be - trying new things out is an important part of character development both irl and in fictional universes. You are not going to be getting any new levels after level 30, and 3b20 rule means you aren't getting any new classes after level 18. So if you want to have character ICly try out a new thing, a new style of fighting or just make an attempt to learn a new skill, your only option, a lot of the time, is RCR. Even if you it's something benign as character picking up a new hobby and player wanting to shift a couple of skill point to represent a newly acquired interest. Why wouldn't a level 30 character be able to learn a new thing? Why should character development be punishable?
And sure, it makes sense that my char would be lower level if they decide to do something entirely different from their usual occupation. But what if I and/or my char doesn't like it and decides to come back to tried and true? There is no undo button on RCR, so I'm left with what? 15th level char instead of 30th? I feel like it's going to be harder to ICly explain such a power drop, than to ICly explain how your character has become an expert dual-wielder over the course of a night, as unlikely as that is.

As for latter point about too drastic of a change. We already discourage those kinds of RCR fairly vocally, it feels like. And everyone is aware that they are immersion breaking for many, and just don't look good no matter how you look at it. So it's not gonna be "changing a character with no real cost", it's more of a "changing a character at a cost of my dignity and potential respect of other players". I'm sure you know plenty of examples when that didn't stop someone, but still, it is a different situation from what you're describing.

If any of those are a concern - it's better to come up with written RCR etiquette that is approved by DMs and community in general, than to limit 100% RCRs. Maybe even nag staff into pinning them or some such. I'd actually be interested to read that.
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Lambe
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Lambe »

Would it be possible to check a receiving toon's race or perhaps even base class before granting it the old toon's pooled XP? I think if this works it might prevent drastic RCR changes when it comes to race or class to certain extent.

As far as 100% RCR goes. I will always be in support of 100% rebuilds over 50% xp transfer to new characters nobody has ever heard of before.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

Alonso wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:15 pm My two cents would be - trying new things out is an important part of character development both irl and in fictional universes. You are not going to be getting any new levels after level 30, and 3b20 rule means you aren't getting any new classes after level 18. So if you want to have character ICly try out a new thing, a new style of fighting or just make an attempt to learn a new skill, your only option, a lot of the time, is RCR. Even if you it's something benign as character picking up a new hobby and player wanting to shift a couple of skill point to represent a newly acquired interest. Why wouldn't a level 30 character be able to learn a new thing? Why should character development be punishable?
And sure, it makes sense that my char would be lower level if they decide to do something entirely different from their usual occupation. But what if I and/or my char doesn't like it and decides to come back to tried and true? There is no undo button on RCR, so I'm left with what? 15th level char instead of 30th? I feel like it's going to be harder to ICly explain such a power drop, than to ICly explain how your character has become an expert dual-wielder over the course of a night, as unlikely as that is.
Well, we don't have levels in real life, and we don't just lose our knowledge if we try to train as something else. As you indeed kind of point out. How do you account, then, for the loss of skill if you choose to stick with your character's new training? A master carpenter may choose to see for a few months if he would rather want to spent time as a tailor. But he doesn't loose his skill as a carpenter. That's been there for a long time and doesn't just drop out of his brain. He adds the tailoring skills on top of that. I'll give you a more ingame example addressing your next paragraph:
Alonso wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:15 pmAs for latter point about too drastic of a change. We already discourage those kinds of RCR fairly vocally, it feels like. And everyone is aware that they are immersion breaking for many, and just don't look good no matter how you look at it. So it's not gonna be "changing a character with no real cost", it's more of a "changing a character at a cost of my dignity and potential respect of other players". I'm sure you know plenty of examples when that didn't stop someone, but still, it is a different situation from what you're describing.
Yes, I've known plenty examples where it didn't stop someone. And indeed plenty examples where they faced practically no cost to their dignity or respect from other players. Obviously, I'm not going to be mentioning names here.

But it doesn't have to be as extreme as that to not make sense. There have been people who were for example some manner of fighter/assassin. A strength based HIPSer, if you will. And then they RCRed out of assassin, but kept fighter. They lost all of their hide/ms, and definitely their death attacks, spells and HIPS. I've seen people with 3-level dips in bard RCR out of that. Inborn magic just up and vanishing without explanation. This was in a period where stormsinger was a popular PRC for non-bards (so you'd go 3 levels of bard and cleric or sorcerer, for example for the actual spellcasting). So they also lost stormsinger, I suppose. Suddenly they were sorcerer archmages instead. Or cleric hierophants. All of that knowledge - and innate magic - just poof.

Some people have RCRed into new PRCs - I myself have done so - and I have no problem with that. Say a wizard20/asoc10 that RCRed once we added archmage into wizard10/asoc10/archmage10. That's fine. Other minor modifications also can easily be fine. But say this person instead RCRed into wizard17/asoc10/shadowdancer3. They'd likely have to sacrifice some intelligence for more dexterity to reach that 19. They'd also have to sacrifice some skill points both for losing intelligence and for moving them into hide/ms (and maybe even spot, listen and/or tumble!). Where would those skill points have come from? Well: Diplomacy, appraise, search, all the lore skills - these are the main skills available to wizard/asocs that don't have enormous mechanical impact (concentration and spellcraft, on the other hand, does). So they'd probably lose quite a bit of lore skill! How would the character account for all that lost knowledge? Losing two or three points of Lore: History because your character hasn't kept up with his history studies in some time, is fine. Suddenly losing 20 points? Maybe all the points? Not so much.

Yes, I have seen almost this exact thing happen. Without almost anyone batting an eye.

I realise I'm probably part of a minority holding this opinion, mind you, and I haven't come back to BG to take this stuff all that seriously anymore - I don't have that kind of energy now. I just want to explain what some others along with myself may think about this.
Alonso wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:15 pmIf any of those are a concern - it's better to come up with written RCR etiquette that is approved by DMs and community in general, than to limit 100% RCRs. Maybe even nag staff into pinning them or some such. I'd actually be interested to read that.
An interesting suggestion! I'm unfortunately a bit too cynical to think that an effort to simply change the culture will be effective. But perhaps I will be proven wrong. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong! That would be a situation of much hope and promise!

And with that wall of text I didn't quite expect myself to write, I shall take an exit from the topic, as I don't want my energy to spent here. Not anymore. If anyone against all odds should actually be interested what I think of any future objections to my thoughts here, I'd be much more happy to speak in PMs.
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Lockonnow
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Lockonnow »

Deathgrowl not to be bold for you but couse there is a lvl we can call it a bound some well say you have cross the line now time for you to act" some one could say that )you been lvl drain with out know you feel how weak youre but before you where level drain you have much more Enegry many of those spells we use on this server people can learn healing some school you can study but do you have the passion or not it is up to you only if you find, there is some that can speak with the dead to their call it Clairvoyance and there more so dont say you cant have levels
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SpookySkeleton
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by SpookySkeleton »

I would definitely appreciate a token, I am not actively playing right now, it would be very cool to come back to an RCR.
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FallingStar
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by FallingStar »

The argument about players going from warlock to barbarian to favored soul by misusing any sort of 100% RcR system is a giant straw man fallacy. It's such an extreme example of what could possibly go wrong that it's barely worth considering.

I'm sure it does happen sometimes, and who cares if it does? Anyone who would misuse a 100% RcR system in this way obviously did not take RP very seriously before, so nothing changes. It has absolutely zero effect on your RP, your immersion, and your enjoyment of the server.

Most players would just use it to tweak their builds, or alter their concepts as RP justifies such.

Stop using the word "consequences". This isn't a courtroom; this is a game. And most games let you adjust builds for little to no penalty.
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Steve
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Steve »

Why does BGTSCC need to be like other games? Why can’t you hold back 5 Skill points every Level so that as your toon progresses you can potentially spend those points in alterations or uphold personal IG development? Why can’t you use the Deleveling NPC if a Feat taken was a mistake? Why can’t you use the current RCR system and apply the “learning to do a new thing/skill/profession” where it takes GAINING EXPERIENCE to eventually master?!?

Yes, the gross Class flipping often mentioned is probably rare, but I’ve seen many, many instances where rewriting the Character has been used to blatantly “wash” a toon if it’s past IG context/relations/Being-ness, and then OOC so many players “let it go” and it just ends up watering down the idea of Identity.

I’d love to give you real examples, but every time I try the Staff chastises me for getting personal. So you’ll just have to take my, and others, word for it, on how disrupting to IG/IC relationships the “abuse” of a constant 100RCR can be.

You might try ad argue that players can “flip” their X aspect of their Character already, with the current system. Yes, they can. This I’d bet real money a Player will think twice or thrice about taking that 30 down to 20, just so they can replace Class, PrC or Race!!!

And maybe that is the sad fact here: the majority HATE leveling here on BGTSCC. That what the Server laks is an enjoyable and rewarding “road from one to thirty,” that progression that is supported by both other players and Staff. Unfortunately, in an environment where ALTitus reigns, it IS hard to take another PC you meet IG too seriously because you may never see it again. So the bar is rather high for base support unless a player is highly outgoing in their own PCs development.

But more importantly, I’d say any restrictions in place to keep BGTSCC becoming a server of all Level 30s, is a good thing. And that is what the current RCR system does. Add to that how a few Builds can level to 30 in 1-2 months, then a player can just RCR into something quirky that leveling would make ones eyes bleed...and into level 30 end game existence right away! BBBOOOOOOOOOOO, I say.

Now, I’m all for 100% RCR when mechanics change. I’m also for a random periodic 100% in order to see the population re-influx during and after the 100%. But I also cannot stress more the importance of starting new concepts at Level 1, and for making the Road to Thirty a Great Adventure for yourself, and others. I just did this again, as I usuallydo every year or two with my PC Chezar Bloodeye. I’ve already had new encounters adventuring with other p,Ayers and their lobbies that I’d otherwise have little to zero reason to be “out adventuring” in those low CL areas.

Of which we have plenty. Of which mostly go abandoned these days. But that’s another topic.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Alonso »

Okay, your experience with server and what sort of RCRs are being done here is definitely different to mine! Guess I know more now about how to avoid doing the "bad RCR"!

Some other thoughts though:
Now, I’m all for 100% RCR when mechanics change. I’m also for a random periodic 100% in order to see the population re-influx during and after the 100%.
The problem with that approach, is that, strictly speaking, you never know if there is going to be another RCR season ever again. It might happen in next 6 months, it might happen in next 12 months, it might never happen! Even when you know that staff generally does those things at least once a year, there is no guarantee it will happen again. This puts a lot of pressure to get a build right. The superlative build, the Build to Rule them all! The build you're sure you're gonna have fun playing forever and ever.
And not everyone is good at judging builds in that way. It might even be one of the reasons for aforementioned drastic race/class changes! Sounds like it would be for some people.

If you had a system that said "Once every X months you get 1 RCR" (one of the suggestions there) you have a certainty that if you make mistake, or misjudge ad build, you will be able to at least remedy that later on. Also gives people timeframe and ample time to RP the "fixing" process in detail. Which is very cool if done right! But I know, we aren't talking about things being done right.

However! If you add an asterisk "X months since your last RCR" instead of "every X months, period", you get a situation where RCRs are at least more spread out (compared to random RCR seasons). So there won't be a "Oh, everybody I know just suddenly changed vocation and hobby" thing happening. Not as often, anyway. Which I think is good! Replace X months with however many you feel right! And/or limit it to "X months since you RCR -any- of your characters". Provided we can have a system for that, which is not guaranteed.
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Steve
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Steve »

Alonso wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:24 pm
The problem with that approach, is that, strictly speaking, you never know if there is going to be another RCR season ever again. This puts a lot of pressure to get a build right.
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FallingStar
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by FallingStar »

Steve wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:36 am Why does BGTSCC need to be like other games? Why can’t you hold back 5 Skill points every Level so that as your toon progresses you can potentially spend those points in alterations or uphold personal IG development? Why can’t you use the Deleveling NPC if a Feat taken was a mistake? Why can’t you use the current RCR system and apply the “learning to do a new thing/skill/profession” where it takes GAINING EXPERIENCE to eventually master?!?
Because ease of use is important when not everyone is good at building in the first place.

The "get gud, it's your responsibility to build right" argument is too obnoxious and elitist to be taken seriously by anyone besides other obnoxious elitists.
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matelener
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by matelener »

I think one thing should be noted about "1 free RCR per lifetime" policy - it would create a new "leveling meta", where first you create a PC with an easy to level build (that has no exp pen.) and later, you RCR into whatever you desire.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

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FallingStar wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:42 pm
The "get gud, it's your responsibility to build right" argument is too obnoxious and elitist to be taken seriously by anyone besides other obnoxious elitists.
I don’t knowing you are attributing this attitude to me or in general, but I did not myself argue this. But on the subject, we have a whole Forum section for Build help, and the Discord is always poppin’ off with quick help, so...how hard can it be to maximize effort and get “gud” with the help of the community you have at your disposal?!?

And it is true what matelener posted, something I mentioned as well. It would be likely enough a player would level a STR Bard 26 / Rogue 4 in 2 months or less, then RCR into that 3 Wizard / 3 Spirit Shaman / 5 Divine Seeker / 19 Man-at-arms Gray Orc that has mega RP status. Nice build, right?!?
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