100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

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Lambe
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Lambe »

Would it be possible to check a receiving toon's race or perhaps even base class before granting it the old toon's pooled XP? I think if this works it might prevent drastic RCR changes when it comes to race or class to certain extent.

As far as 100% RCR goes. I will always be in support of 100% rebuilds over 50% xp transfer to new characters nobody has ever heard of before.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

Alonso wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:15 pm My two cents would be - trying new things out is an important part of character development both irl and in fictional universes. You are not going to be getting any new levels after level 30, and 3b20 rule means you aren't getting any new classes after level 18. So if you want to have character ICly try out a new thing, a new style of fighting or just make an attempt to learn a new skill, your only option, a lot of the time, is RCR. Even if you it's something benign as character picking up a new hobby and player wanting to shift a couple of skill point to represent a newly acquired interest. Why wouldn't a level 30 character be able to learn a new thing? Why should character development be punishable?
And sure, it makes sense that my char would be lower level if they decide to do something entirely different from their usual occupation. But what if I and/or my char doesn't like it and decides to come back to tried and true? There is no undo button on RCR, so I'm left with what? 15th level char instead of 30th? I feel like it's going to be harder to ICly explain such a power drop, than to ICly explain how your character has become an expert dual-wielder over the course of a night, as unlikely as that is.
Well, we don't have levels in real life, and we don't just lose our knowledge if we try to train as something else. As you indeed kind of point out. How do you account, then, for the loss of skill if you choose to stick with your character's new training? A master carpenter may choose to see for a few months if he would rather want to spent time as a tailor. But he doesn't loose his skill as a carpenter. That's been there for a long time and doesn't just drop out of his brain. He adds the tailoring skills on top of that. I'll give you a more ingame example addressing your next paragraph:
Alonso wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:15 pmAs for latter point about too drastic of a change. We already discourage those kinds of RCR fairly vocally, it feels like. And everyone is aware that they are immersion breaking for many, and just don't look good no matter how you look at it. So it's not gonna be "changing a character with no real cost", it's more of a "changing a character at a cost of my dignity and potential respect of other players". I'm sure you know plenty of examples when that didn't stop someone, but still, it is a different situation from what you're describing.
Yes, I've known plenty examples where it didn't stop someone. And indeed plenty examples where they faced practically no cost to their dignity or respect from other players. Obviously, I'm not going to be mentioning names here.

But it doesn't have to be as extreme as that to not make sense. There have been people who were for example some manner of fighter/assassin. A strength based HIPSer, if you will. And then they RCRed out of assassin, but kept fighter. They lost all of their hide/ms, and definitely their death attacks, spells and HIPS. I've seen people with 3-level dips in bard RCR out of that. Inborn magic just up and vanishing without explanation. This was in a period where stormsinger was a popular PRC for non-bards (so you'd go 3 levels of bard and cleric or sorcerer, for example for the actual spellcasting). So they also lost stormsinger, I suppose. Suddenly they were sorcerer archmages instead. Or cleric hierophants. All of that knowledge - and innate magic - just poof.

Some people have RCRed into new PRCs - I myself have done so - and I have no problem with that. Say a wizard20/asoc10 that RCRed once we added archmage into wizard10/asoc10/archmage10. That's fine. Other minor modifications also can easily be fine. But say this person instead RCRed into wizard17/asoc10/shadowdancer3. They'd likely have to sacrifice some intelligence for more dexterity to reach that 19. They'd also have to sacrifice some skill points both for losing intelligence and for moving them into hide/ms (and maybe even spot, listen and/or tumble!). Where would those skill points have come from? Well: Diplomacy, appraise, search, all the lore skills - these are the main skills available to wizard/asocs that don't have enormous mechanical impact (concentration and spellcraft, on the other hand, does). So they'd probably lose quite a bit of lore skill! How would the character account for all that lost knowledge? Losing two or three points of Lore: History because your character hasn't kept up with his history studies in some time, is fine. Suddenly losing 20 points? Maybe all the points? Not so much.

Yes, I have seen almost this exact thing happen. Without almost anyone batting an eye.

I realise I'm probably part of a minority holding this opinion, mind you, and I haven't come back to BG to take this stuff all that seriously anymore - I don't have that kind of energy now. I just want to explain what some others along with myself may think about this.
Alonso wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:15 pmIf any of those are a concern - it's better to come up with written RCR etiquette that is approved by DMs and community in general, than to limit 100% RCRs. Maybe even nag staff into pinning them or some such. I'd actually be interested to read that.
An interesting suggestion! I'm unfortunately a bit too cynical to think that an effort to simply change the culture will be effective. But perhaps I will be proven wrong. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong! That would be a situation of much hope and promise!

And with that wall of text I didn't quite expect myself to write, I shall take an exit from the topic, as I don't want my energy to spent here. Not anymore. If anyone against all odds should actually be interested what I think of any future objections to my thoughts here, I'd be much more happy to speak in PMs.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Lockonnow »

Deathgrowl not to be bold for you but couse there is a lvl we can call it a bound some well say you have cross the line now time for you to act" some one could say that )you been lvl drain with out know you feel how weak youre but before you where level drain you have much more Enegry many of those spells we use on this server people can learn healing some school you can study but do you have the passion or not it is up to you only if you find, there is some that can speak with the dead to their call it Clairvoyance and there more so dont say you cant have levels
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by SpookySkeleton »

I would definitely appreciate a token, I am not actively playing right now, it would be very cool to come back to an RCR.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by FallingStar »

The argument about players going from warlock to barbarian to favored soul by misusing any sort of 100% RcR system is a giant straw man fallacy. It's such an extreme example of what could possibly go wrong that it's barely worth considering.

I'm sure it does happen sometimes, and who cares if it does? Anyone who would misuse a 100% RcR system in this way obviously did not take RP very seriously before, so nothing changes. It has absolutely zero effect on your RP, your immersion, and your enjoyment of the server.

Most players would just use it to tweak their builds, or alter their concepts as RP justifies such.

Stop using the word "consequences". This isn't a courtroom; this is a game. And most games let you adjust builds for little to no penalty.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Steve »

Why does BGTSCC need to be like other games? Why can’t you hold back 5 Skill points every Level so that as your toon progresses you can potentially spend those points in alterations or uphold personal IG development? Why can’t you use the Deleveling NPC if a Feat taken was a mistake? Why can’t you use the current RCR system and apply the “learning to do a new thing/skill/profession” where it takes GAINING EXPERIENCE to eventually master?!?

Yes, the gross Class flipping often mentioned is probably rare, but I’ve seen many, many instances where rewriting the Character has been used to blatantly “wash” a toon if it’s past IG context/relations/Being-ness, and then OOC so many players “let it go” and it just ends up watering down the idea of Identity.

I’d love to give you real examples, but every time I try the Staff chastises me for getting personal. So you’ll just have to take my, and others, word for it, on how disrupting to IG/IC relationships the “abuse” of a constant 100RCR can be.

You might try ad argue that players can “flip” their X aspect of their Character already, with the current system. Yes, they can. This I’d bet real money a Player will think twice or thrice about taking that 30 down to 20, just so they can replace Class, PrC or Race!!!

And maybe that is the sad fact here: the majority HATE leveling here on BGTSCC. That what the Server laks is an enjoyable and rewarding “road from one to thirty,” that progression that is supported by both other players and Staff. Unfortunately, in an environment where ALTitus reigns, it IS hard to take another PC you meet IG too seriously because you may never see it again. So the bar is rather high for base support unless a player is highly outgoing in their own PCs development.

But more importantly, I’d say any restrictions in place to keep BGTSCC becoming a server of all Level 30s, is a good thing. And that is what the current RCR system does. Add to that how a few Builds can level to 30 in 1-2 months, then a player can just RCR into something quirky that leveling would make ones eyes bleed...and into level 30 end game existence right away! BBBOOOOOOOOOOO, I say.

Now, I’m all for 100% RCR when mechanics change. I’m also for a random periodic 100% in order to see the population re-influx during and after the 100%. But I also cannot stress more the importance of starting new concepts at Level 1, and for making the Road to Thirty a Great Adventure for yourself, and others. I just did this again, as I usuallydo every year or two with my PC Chezar Bloodeye. I’ve already had new encounters adventuring with other p,Ayers and their lobbies that I’d otherwise have little to zero reason to be “out adventuring” in those low CL areas.

Of which we have plenty. Of which mostly go abandoned these days. But that’s another topic.

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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Alonso »

Okay, your experience with server and what sort of RCRs are being done here is definitely different to mine! Guess I know more now about how to avoid doing the "bad RCR"!

Some other thoughts though:
Now, I’m all for 100% RCR when mechanics change. I’m also for a random periodic 100% in order to see the population re-influx during and after the 100%.
The problem with that approach, is that, strictly speaking, you never know if there is going to be another RCR season ever again. It might happen in next 6 months, it might happen in next 12 months, it might never happen! Even when you know that staff generally does those things at least once a year, there is no guarantee it will happen again. This puts a lot of pressure to get a build right. The superlative build, the Build to Rule them all! The build you're sure you're gonna have fun playing forever and ever.
And not everyone is good at judging builds in that way. It might even be one of the reasons for aforementioned drastic race/class changes! Sounds like it would be for some people.

If you had a system that said "Once every X months you get 1 RCR" (one of the suggestions there) you have a certainty that if you make mistake, or misjudge ad build, you will be able to at least remedy that later on. Also gives people timeframe and ample time to RP the "fixing" process in detail. Which is very cool if done right! But I know, we aren't talking about things being done right.

However! If you add an asterisk "X months since your last RCR" instead of "every X months, period", you get a situation where RCRs are at least more spread out (compared to random RCR seasons). So there won't be a "Oh, everybody I know just suddenly changed vocation and hobby" thing happening. Not as often, anyway. Which I think is good! Replace X months with however many you feel right! And/or limit it to "X months since you RCR -any- of your characters". Provided we can have a system for that, which is not guaranteed.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

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Alonso wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:24 pm
The problem with that approach, is that, strictly speaking, you never know if there is going to be another RCR season ever again. This puts a lot of pressure to get a build right.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by FallingStar »

Steve wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:36 am Why does BGTSCC need to be like other games? Why can’t you hold back 5 Skill points every Level so that as your toon progresses you can potentially spend those points in alterations or uphold personal IG development? Why can’t you use the Deleveling NPC if a Feat taken was a mistake? Why can’t you use the current RCR system and apply the “learning to do a new thing/skill/profession” where it takes GAINING EXPERIENCE to eventually master?!?
Because ease of use is important when not everyone is good at building in the first place.

The "get gud, it's your responsibility to build right" argument is too obnoxious and elitist to be taken seriously by anyone besides other obnoxious elitists.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by matelener »

I think one thing should be noted about "1 free RCR per lifetime" policy - it would create a new "leveling meta", where first you create a PC with an easy to level build (that has no exp pen.) and later, you RCR into whatever you desire.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Steve »

FallingStar wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:42 pm
The "get gud, it's your responsibility to build right" argument is too obnoxious and elitist to be taken seriously by anyone besides other obnoxious elitists.
I don’t knowing you are attributing this attitude to me or in general, but I did not myself argue this. But on the subject, we have a whole Forum section for Build help, and the Discord is always poppin’ off with quick help, so...how hard can it be to maximize effort and get “gud” with the help of the community you have at your disposal?!?

And it is true what matelener posted, something I mentioned as well. It would be likely enough a player would level a STR Bard 26 / Rogue 4 in 2 months or less, then RCR into that 3 Wizard / 3 Spirit Shaman / 5 Divine Seeker / 19 Man-at-arms Gray Orc that has mega RP status. Nice build, right?!?

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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

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Steve wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:21 pm It would be likely enough a player would level a STR Bard 26 / Rogue 4 in 2 months or less, then RCR into that 3 Wizard / 3 Spirit Shaman / 5 Divine Seeker / 19 Man-at-arms Gray Orc that has mega RP status. Nice build, right?!?
I can't understand why that bothers you, honestly.

Sure it isn't ideal to have that first character (the powerbuildy quick leveler) race through content, presumably without a lot of RP. But do you think someone that would play that way would somehow become the dedicated RPer you think you want, because you want them to conform to your play style?

I don't get that logic.

And so what if they then roll up a weird-split character for mega-RP. Isn't that what you want, for players to RP a character they can invest themselves in? Because right now I would posit that RP is dead because we made it that way.

We increase content difficulty to where "builds" are a focus, and partying is necessary (and not feasible a large amount of time). We limit looting to a narrow band of areas that, especially in certain bands, are very difficult if you aren't focused on mechanics and combat (often at the expense of RP and story). At max level you fight giants, dragons, and yuan-ti. Over and over, if you want to loot productively.

So if someone wants to break free of that boring meta we have now (and deny it all you'd like, look around man) and use that XP to play something they aren't worried about mechanics with... who cares?

Better to have a server of stagnant powerbuilds?
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

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Planehopper wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:36 pm Better to have a server of stagnant powerbuilds?
The Server in no way prevents a Player from leveling ANY type of build, from Level 1 to Level 30. Don't like The Grind? Fish until 30, with added Chat XP as the cherry.

I'm not arguing for any "play style," especially my play style. I never said EVERYONE PLAY AS STEVE PLAYS, or you suck. Why do you go out of your way to put those words in my mouth, to make me look elitist or something?

What I do argue for is a Server that is FULLY ENJOYABLE from Level 1 to Level 30, every step of the way. That our Characters retain an Identity based in their professions (classes, prcs) and in their skill sets. That Experience is earned, just as it was designed to be, in D&D. That the Server does not become host to 99% Level 30s that have zero interest going to low level Areas, and that any interaction between newbies/lowbies, and those LIfetime Level 30 toone that would come with Permanent 100% RCR, would get absolutely crushed.

I don't know about you PH, but the name of the game on BGTSCC is RP whatever Build you're playing. It seems to me, and I'm happy to be wrong, that you are saying one can't RP with gusto a powerbuild?!? Personally, I do think it is lame that a player would—and I know this to have happened a plenty—take a powerbuild and power level, so that they could get to endgame status of a build that is more "challenging" to make it through content. But, the way the RCR works now, if a player wished to do that, they'd only get back to Level 20, and thus this new Character would still have to gain experience.

Gaining experience, in my book, is actually RP. I totally understand that if for some players killing monsters is lame to gain experience, and I'm happy that for them, as I said above, they have fishing and Chat XP to make playing the game worth it. I also totally understand that it's lame for players that they can't go out and do loot runs in Epic Areas SOLO unless they have a min/maxed powerbuild. But I don't pity them, because I personally have a powerbuild that I run in the Epic Areas, and even since the Loot Rebalance, I still haven't found one single epic item that equals what you can find in NPC stores.

So yeah, don't know where you're coming from with this play style attack, but hey, I Epic Dodged it cause I that's not that subject of this thread anyway!! I'm gonna mod you Moderator?!?! *now tries to ED out Shadowspinner...like I said, maybe they need work to do too!!*

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FallingStar
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by FallingStar »

Steve wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:21 pm
FallingStar wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:42 pm
The "get gud, it's your responsibility to build right" argument is too obnoxious and elitist to be taken seriously by anyone besides other obnoxious elitists.
I don’t knowing you are attributing this attitude to me or in general, but I did not myself argue this. But on the subject, we have a whole Forum section for Build help, and the Discord is always poppin’ off with quick help, so...how hard can it be to maximize effort and get “gud” with the help of the community you have at your disposal?!?
It wasn't directed at you, but it's an argument I've seen made in another thread about this very subject.

No. Not everyone wants to enter the pool of conflicting information about how to build. Not everyone should.

The game is not intuitive about building a character, and players should be granted more leeway, because it's a glaring flaw in the base game.
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Re: 100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

Unread post by Steve »

Look, I’ll write it for the third time now, and that is I’m supportive of giving players a chance to fix a badly built PC, and that could be done with a One Time Token granted every toon at creation.

Why isn’t a 1 Time 100% RCR per Toon good enough? And after that, if a player wants to continually adjust the mechanics of their Character, that would require a little sacrifice IN experience to be able to GAIN new experience, new knowledge?

But hey, it’s obvious I personally don’t agree with this infinite fungible XP concept, and others who play on BGTSCC like that concept, desire that concept. I’m not in charge, I’m simply arguing my point of view, and where I see it benefitting—or not...—the experience of gameplay on this particular Server. I accept that others don’t agree with my POV, and I’m glad people have their own opinions (as long as they’re not misrepresenting my position).

That said, if permanent 100% RCR would exist, I’d probably use it myself, because I also use the CURRENT system! But then again, I also roll up level 1 toons even though they could start at 20.

But like I wrote earlier in this thread, stop calling it RCR (retired character refund) and give it a new existence/label. Because the tool designed to retire a PC and gift a player some XP to create a NEW Character, thus fresh RP, seems to be no longer the main use.

Thanks for the debate!

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