Detect Alignment Spells

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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

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Rhifox wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:23 am
Steve wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:18 pm If Detect “Alignment” is going IG, why should it NOT function exactly as the 3.5 Rules describe?
To be perfectly honest... mostly because of player anger. As witnessed just in this thread and every other discussion where this has come up. People feel they should be able to play evil characters, even characters of obviously evil classes or races, and yet be completely immune to any magical attempts at detecting them. It's the usual one-dimensional Sneak RP paranoia where their character somehow becomes completely invalidated if they're exposed, because they were designed purely for Sneak RP and if they can no longer do that they feel they need to trash the character rather than having them grow and evolve and find a new purpose. It's an extension of the usual hatred of any and all forms of supposed "metagaming" (even though Detect spells are IC, not OOC, and have an easy guaranteed counter in undetectable alignment).

It'd certainly be easier on me if I could just implement it straight without all of these extra checks that inflate the script to ridiculous levels, and sometimes I think about just outright doing that. I'm opposite from other players in that I think RP is lessened by not having detect evil, rather than lessened by having it. Not having it removes reactivity and consequences for player actions. It makes being Evil mean basically nothing. It allows people to play outright evil classes like blackguards and yet be buddy-buddies with paladins. Paladins are largely useless at their actual job of routing out evil -- and in turn are relegated towards knee-jerk accusations of evil because the only thing they can do is judge character associations and rumors instead of having a tool to try and validate their assumptions. Not having it harms RP, in my opinion.
Thank you for the response—and others as well—and the answer is quite as I expected it—Players can't be trusted.

Which makes me wonder: if players can't be trusted, does even a "watered down" version make any sense to put IG? I'm of a similar mind as Wolfshear and Deathgrowl, in that it will be used as a crutch to enact PvP, some mechanical "push" on what should be CvC and role-play.

Like I'm always saying—and a lot as of late—mechanics can't fix role-play.

I really, really wish this could work. I'd much prefer the straight 3.5e Rules Detect (Evil) Alignment implementation, because clear is better than confusing use and confusing result. Especially if a Non Detection deterrent / spell was available to counter.

On a further note: I think this thread is just another example to add to the pile about how the Server leans toward PCs being good, and most role-play being about "destroying the Evil." It's not rocket science to observe that the majority of Players in D&D want to pay the Good Hero, the shining knight, the poster child for lawful and good. The way I see it is that playing Evil is just not fun for the majority, and they don't even know how and/or why to begin...which is probably a good thing in RL! 0:)

I think this thread also shows that BGTSCC continues to lack a fully developed environment where players CAN play Evil toons, and not rely on a constant need to interact with Goodies and Neutrals just to have some healthy or full IG experience.

Lastly, the fact of having objective and REAL existence of Good and Evil in the Forgotten Realms, is hard to parse form a RL modern perspective. Perhaps even in the Forgotten Realms perspective. Consider whether or not it really IS justifiable, that if a Paladin sees a known Evil Being in the street, doing nothing but standing there, does said Paladin have the right to kill that evil being?

This is more or less the issue with alignment, PCs, Good vs Evil on BGTSCC: what is justifiable, and what "tools" are given to the players in order to "justify" the actions of their PCs? And how will that maybe create OOC waves, that just simply do no good?

I would love to see equally supported "hubs" for Good aligned and Evil aligned PCs, on BGTSCC. Until this somehow would manifest, for me, it seems doubtful that adding this Detect Alignment mechanic will do any real good for Role-play, besides creating far more OOC conflict than before.

That's just my 2 cents. I would be happy to be proven wrong!!!

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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

I said this years ago the last time this subject came up. If y'all want Detect Alignment, add Undetectable Alignment along with it, with an opposed check similar to Nondetection. Add the Undetectable Alignment spell to cleric, bard, blackguard, paladin and assassin spellbooks. Done.
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

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Tsidkenu wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:54 am I said this years ago the last time this subject came up. If y'all want Detect Alignment, add Undetectable Alignment along with it, with an opposed check similar to Nondetection. Add the Undetectable Alignment spell to cleric, bard, blackguard, paladin and assassin spellbooks. Done.
And you were right.

Ill still second Blackman_D and Snarfy here, go on cast your detect evil on me and give me that PvP consent.

Or we can play Mystraan Roulette, you cast a spell on me, ill cast one on you. No promisses what it will be, could be an implosion, maybe just a light spell? Lets have fun :)

I think many people are overthinking this and overreacting though. Its a nice and very situational RP spell as I see it, which would probably be rarely used in Player on Player interactions, but could have many applications in DM events or the even more secluded RP.

Especially with counter tools in place for the people who need them. More spells, more RP, more RP spells! Thank you Rhifox, keep up the good work.

Keep in mind there are laws in place IC as well, which would probably make the character type who would typically cast this spell, have to consider if he is commiting a chaotic act, depending on location and circumstances. It should not be some introduction line from a paladin at the fire casting the spell and asking which of the four adventurers will be his morning practise.
Last edited by Ithilan on Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

Unread post by Rhifox »

Wolfshear wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:08 pm
Almarea90 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:41 am I understand there will be spells and items to conceal the alignment, which would make impossible to distinguish a neutral character from an evil but concealed one. Why would the spell detect alignment still be a problem under this premise?
Then everyone with such a blank slate would be considered evil and get shanked with the same kind of justification, or at best treated with mistrust.
It's a silent check. There's no indication given if the detect fails. Someone using undetectable alignment essentially flags as if they were Neutral.
For that matter it also brings us to the mental gymnastics of having to delve into characters that do not perceive themselves as evil...But still ping as evil under this and willfully have to make use of non detection to avoid showing up as evil...Despite the definition of what is evil varying between players and dms alike. That is more an inherent problem with the alignment system itself of course...But throwing it around here hardly adds to the rp...People and morality are more complex than a simple button for a radar.

...

I am against anything that turns what could be fascinating nuanced rp where you actually have to convince other people that someone is naughty either with proof of action or good enough wordplay...To pushing a button and saying "See". It not only effects evil people in a negative way but it effects good people to..Because with the nuance gone...Welp, doesnt matter what you see X person do or know of X person or what they might be trying to do...Or all the complicated things that might go into their personality. They ping as evil thus you must kill them and if you do anything with them..With your now full knowledge of their "evil" then that makes you evil. I am not a fan of destroying nuance and moral quandries from people..Why shoehorn people in a single direction.
Good and Evil are objective in FR. Someone that does not perceive themselves as evil is still evil. But the thing is, something being 'good' does not necessarily mean it is right, and something being 'evil' does not necessarily mean it is wrong. Good and Evil are objective in the setting but subjective overall -- there are actions that are considered Good in DnD that would absolutely be morally wrong IRL.

Good and Evil in DnD are philosophical positions, not simply 'right versus wrong'. In real life, their being subjective means you always call what you do good and what the enemy does evil. In DnD, they are objective, which means they have defined values that individual characters may not agree with. Characters are perfectly valid at saying, 'Yes, I am evil, and that is morally right.' You can call what you do evil and what the enemy does good and feel absolutely morally justified and correct in doing so. They are factions, teams, parties. What they need to learn is that being evil is itself a valid and worthy thing and to take pride in it.

This is why I say we lose nuance by not having detect evil. Because it caters to the subjective idea where every single character is trying to convince themselves and the world that they're good, not evil. It results in what you see in this thread: No one wants to identify as evil. The majority of evil characters don't want to acknowledge that they're evil, they don't want to be seen as evil. It's a dirty label, something only the player behind the screen (and the DMs) is supposed to see.

Good and Evil are objective in FR. Which means evil characters can say that Good is morally wrong and Evil is morally right, rather than denying that they are Evil or denying that the enemy is Good. An angel is absolutely, always, perfectly Good. And an Evil character can consider that angel to be morally wrong regardless. If the embodiment of Good can be morally wrong, then an Evil PC can self-identify as Evil and take pride in it, not out of mustache-twirling saturday morning cartoon villainy, but out of legitimate belief in and support of the philosophical concepts that define Evil in the DnD/FR setting.

From EasyDamus:
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The Philosophy of Lawful Evil
Lawful evil is the philosophy that the self is best advanced through the apparatus of the state. It is a philosophy of egoistic collectivism. This philosophy holds that people should behave egoistically and that the state exists to elevate the worthy to positions of power. Lawful evil can also be associated with rule egoism, universal ethical egoism, and social darwinism.

Lawful evil philosophers generally maintain that there is metaphysical order in the multiverse and thus may support doctrines of hard determinism, predeterminism, fatalism, predestination, and/or necessitarianism. They may believe in fate or destiny. They tend to be moral objectivists, holding that values exist in the external world independently of and external to our comprehension of them; that they can be found and known; and that they must be used as principles for human judgments and conduct.

The ideal government for this alignment is an authoritarian state with codified laws supporting a social order in which radical egoism is rewarded and altruism is punished. Lawful evil beings want the power of the state to be used for the benefit of the self. Retributive justice is used to punish those who threaten the social order.
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The Philosophy of Neutral Evil
Neutral evil is the philosophy that the self is best advanced by using whatever means necessary. It is a philosophy of egoistic consequentialism. This philosophy holds that people should behave egoistically and embrace any social order that allows them to gain the most power. Neutral evil can also be associated with act egoism, personal ethical egoism, and social darwinism.

Neutral evil philosophers generally maintain that there is metaphysical balance in the multiverse and thus may support doctrines of soft determinism, pragmatism, conventionalism, and/or instrumentalism. They may believe in free will or choice. They could also embrace skepticism or suspend judgment on philosophical issues. They tend to be moral relativists, holding that values differ from society to society, from person to person; that they are conditioned by the peculiarities of the society in which they arise; that they are not universally applicable at all times or in all places; and that they are correct or incorrect, desirable or undesirable only relative to whether or not they conform to a common norm or to common acceptance.

The ideal government for this alignment is any social order in which radical egoism is rewarded and altruism is punished. Neutral evil beings will try to secure the most power for themselves and will use the power of the state to accomplish this or the act against the state, if more power can be gained in this manner. Retributive justice is favored by neutral evil beings.
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The Philosophy of Chaotic Evil
Chaotic evil is the philosophy that the self is best advanced through the freedom to act independently. It is a philosophy of egoistic individualism. This philosophy holds that people should behave egoistically and that society exists for the sake of its individual members. Chaotic evil can also be associated with egoistic hedonism, individual ethical egoism, and social darwinism. Political and ethical nihilism also feature heavily in chaotic evil thought.

Chaotic evil philosophers generally maintain that there is metaphysical chaos in the multiverse and thus may support doctrines of indeterminism, casualism, tychism, and/or accidentalism. They may believe that fortune or chance determine all outcomes. They tend to be moral subjectivists, holding that values are expressions of emotions, attitudes, reactions, feelings, thoughts, wishes, and desires, and have no independent objective or external reality or reference in the real world.

The ideal government for this alignment is an minimalist state or anarchy supporting a social order in which radical egoism is rewarded and altruism is punished. Chaotic evil beings believe that the best way to advance themselves is by securing the most freedom to act as possible. Retributive justice is used to punish those who act against the chaotic evil.
This is where the nuance comes from. In accepting one is evil, instead of hiding from it. Your job shouldn't be to convince people you're actually Good. It should be to convince people that Evil is morally superior to Good.


Tekill wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:58 amIf you introduce a 'detect evil' into the game I would suggest creating a disclaimer on the forum front page for new players stating that the philosophy of this server is catered to 'opposing evil', and that by choosing to try and RP an evil character you are doing so, at your own peril.
As someone whose main is evil, I consider the lack of detect evil problematic (for the reasons given in my reply to Wolfshear above). It's hardly some "opposing evil" thing to me. It's about making evil be actually distinct and meaningful. Right now, it isn't, IMO.


Tsidkenu wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:54 am I said this years ago the last time this subject came up. If y'all want Detect Alignment, add Undetectable Alignment along with it, with an opposed check similar to Nondetection. Add the Undetectable Alignment spell to cleric, bard, blackguard, paladin and assassin spellbooks. Done.
Yup, this would be added at the same time.
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

Unread post by Wolfshear »

While i despise the alignment system and you can call it objective sure its also on a sliding scale that changes constantly that would require constant dm oversight not possible here...In a pnp game as ive said before yes, but not here. Not every villian out there that isnt a supernatural Devil/demon is sitting there moustache twirling and revelling in their own evil, thats just poor writing.

Pidgeon holing every evil person into one singular form of "Oh boy I sure do love evil" is not nuanced. Your average bandit that does bad things isnt revelling in his own naughtyness. He's just trying to make some money or eat. A local warlord isnt convinced that he is oh so evil and its so much better than being good he's just trying to win. Hell most bad guys slip further and further into evil without even realising it, evil being seductive and all that. But the vast majority arent going "Oh god im so evil its fantastic" They view every evil act that they might do as entirely justified. Its not even about convincing others for most evil folks, its how they would view it internally.

But the only way the alignment system even properly works is with proper oversight we just cannot do. Around a table top or even in the singleplayer campaigns for this very game, there is a constant reaction to everything you say and do that shifts your alignment. We cannot possibly offer that here and it is the sliding/shifting scale that makes the alignment system even work in the first place.

What we have here is an entirely static alignment that doesnt at all reflect what players do or say. Theres plenty of good guys over the years that have comitted atrocities...But they're not evil unless the player chooses to shift their alignment to that. And sure we can have the dms more proactive with alignment changes but they wont catch everything which kind of renders it pointless. Without a shifting and sliding scale thats completely reactive to all of our actions, it just doesn't work.
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

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I like the alignment system in D&D.
It helps create a fairly simple guideline to personality traits/behaviors that I do not personally exhibit nor inherently understand.

There is always the temptation or bias to simply roleplay myself as a D&D character and choosing options based on what I, myself would choose.
Or, the temptation to RP my character to simply pick options that would logically create the most optimal outcomes.

To not do what 'I' normally would do, or to not automatically do whatever 'I' think the winning option is- goes against my instincts and therefore is difficult.

What would my character do?

Having an alignment makes answering the question easier.

Perhaps having the knowledge that others may (or may not) have some sort of access to our characters alignment might be an incentive for all players in general to focus on playing our alignments and maybe even our entire characters (classes, attributes, skills) a bit more.

Yeah okay, I think I get it...
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

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I guess my mechanical concern about setting it up like 2e instead of 3.5 (which is supposedly the version NWN2 runs) is this:

Yes, I know "table rules" often change one minor thing or another, but if you start pulling in mechanics from other editions because they are "superior" in one way or another, then you're not going to have a leg to stand on when you get the arguments from suggestions of "Well, patherfinder does this better and..." or "Well, 5e says this, and it's smoother..." when the rebuttal is "Well, we're not playing those games." Because, well, non-3.5 stuff is included at other times, so...
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

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Wolfshear wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:10 pmPidgeon holing every evil person into one singular form of "Oh boy I sure do love evil" is not nuanced. Your average bandit that does bad things isnt revelling in his own naughtyness. He's just trying to make some money or eat. A local warlord isnt convinced that he is oh so evil and its so much better than being good he's just trying to win. Hell most bad guys slip further and further into evil without even realising it, evil being seductive and all that. But the vast majority arent going "Oh god im so evil its fantastic" They view every evil act that they might do as entirely justified. Its not even about convincing others for most evil folks, its how they would view it internally.
Yes. And in DnD, it being justified doesn't change that it's still evil. They're not good. They see themselves as right. And if that person is "scanned" with a detect evil spell, and told they're evil? Most of the time, they're not going to take a serious look inwards and decide to change. They're not going to agree with the spell, or the person casting the spell. They're still going to justify it as the right thing to do given their situation. They're going to spit on the priest, spit on the universe. If the setting has Good and Evil as objective, and the setting tells you, you're Evil, then your response is often going to be, "Then let me be Evil." That's how DnD works. There are literal personifications of good in the setting. Angels and gods of good. Priests and servants of those forces. They can and will tell you you're Evil. What is the difference between an Angel telling you you're Evil, and a Detect Evil spell telling you you're Evil? In both cases, it is an authoritative entity defining exactly how the universe judges your actions.

It's not about babykilling and mustache-twirling and reveling in evil. It's not about cackling about how bad you are, or doing evil for the lulz. It's about acknowledging that your actions, regardless of how justified they were (or how justified the characters believe they are), are still definitively aligned within the cosmology of the setting. Stealing for food to feed your family is still chaotic (and possibly evil). Murdering evil creatures is still good. Summoning undead to save a village is still evil.

What I'm trying to say is that, yes, the characters view every evil act they do as justified. And thus, in an objective setting, they would view evil as justified. Evil as right. Evil as strong. Why? Because everyone else around them is calling them evil, while they disagree with that. And thus, they will internalize that they are evil (or at least, they will flip the actual words 'good' and 'evil' around in their heads, or otherwise justify it to themselves. They are still Evil, but 'evil' means 'good' to them, while 'good' means 'evil').

Detect spells don't change any of this. Selengil is not going to start seeing anything he's doing as wrong just because an angel or detect evil spell says he's evil. He's still going to believe he's right, that he's doing what's necessary, even that what he's doing is good. And if the universe is trying to tell him that he's evil, well then (do-me) the universe. He's right. The universe isn't.

That's objective morality. You aren't just trying to convince yourself, or convince the people around you. You're having to convince the entire cosmos. And, since most of the DnD universe is also morphic, with enough effort, you might actually succeed. (though that's really an Epic-level quest)
What we have here is an entirely static alignment that doesnt at all reflect what players do or say. Theres plenty of good guys over the years that have comitted atrocities...But they're not evil unless the player chooses to shift their alignment to that. And sure we can have the dms more proactive with alignment changes but they wont catch everything which kind of renders it pointless. Without a shifting and sliding scale thats completely reactive to all of our actions, it just doesn't work.
Because Good can commit atrocities in DnD while still being Good. Because Good is not always right in DnD. By our own real life standards of good, there's a lot of 'Good' in DnD that is something I would personally consider outright evil. Good in DnD can be wrong. Good can be vile and monstrous. Angels can be horrible and merciless killers. Because Good in DnD is objective, it has a defined list of things that are considered good (and killing evil-aligned creatures is 'Good'). Evil-aligned characters have reason to be scared of Good-aligned characters, and to view them as monstrous.

The setting is objective. Raising undead is always Evil, and will always be Evil. Thus, someone raising undead for "good" reasons will still be evil. But they will still view themselves as right, regardless of if some spell, paladin, angel, or god tries to tell them otherwise.

artemitavik wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:27 pm I guess my mechanical concern about setting it up like 2e instead of 3.5 (which is supposedly the version NWN2 runs) is this:

Yes, I know "table rules" often change one minor thing or another, but if you start pulling in mechanics from other editions because they are "superior" in one way or another, then you're not going to have a leg to stand on when you get the arguments from suggestions of "Well, patherfinder does this better and..." or "Well, 5e says this, and it's smoother..." when the rebuttal is "Well, we're not playing those games." Because, well, non-3.5 stuff is included at other times, so...
What I'm considering doing instead is following up on what someone here said earlier: That is, basing it off of the alignment score.

So something like

86-100: Flags Good on Good-Evil scale or Lawful on Lawful-Chaotic scale. Stronger values the higher you go towards absolute for that alignment.
15-85: Flags Neutral on either scale
0-14: Flags Evil on Good-Evil scale or Chaotic on Lawful-Chaotic scale. Stronger values the lower you go towards absolute for that alignment.

In this way, new characters, as well as characters 'leaning' neutral, flag as neutral. You have to actually put in real evil (or good, lawful, chaotic) actions, to the point of receiving alignment points from an actual DM, before you will actually flag an alignment. RCR tree would also be adjusted so RCRing transfers your actual score when you recreate.

Certain things may still flag regardless (like clerics of evil gods, blackguards, warriors of darkness, paladins, etc), magical classes that explicitly say they generate aligned auras, but for everyone else it'd be determined by the score and actual actions.
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

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The issue isn’t how D&D works, or how the Alignment System works or can be interpreted.

The issue is how PLAYERS will make OOC decisions and justify it IG with IC actions because the Detect Alignment result is Truth.

If the goal here is to say “a Level 30 Lawful Evil PC has committed to 100% Evil by this time,” that’s great, but, does that then mean the Character should be RP’d as forever Evil, a “known” Evil Being, or can they change?

If they can change at Level 30, then what does Alignment really matter? It just means it’s malleable and not so objective after all.

But the Label that a PC will get…is that “changeable?” Chicken or the egg?

What I foresee is a boat load of conflict. If that can happen only IG and IC, great.

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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

Unread post by zhazz »

This topic was brought up 8 or 9 years ago as well. It was heavily in favor of not implementing any such system due to the potential PvP friction it would create. The same issue persists today. While it is a nice spell to use in tabletop against a NPC, it is highly meta-gamey against other players. And it also subverts a lot of subterfuge role play. Gone is the doubt, and the convincing of others that someone is evil. Gone is the hiding of the wolf among the sheep through clever role play.
Tekill wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:42 am I like the alignment system in D&D.
It helps create a fairly simple guideline to personality traits/behaviors that I do not personally exhibit nor inherently understand.
I fully agree that alignment is a good way to figure out what a character might do in a given situation. However, it is important to remember that alignment is not a description of a character and how that character will act. It is a measure of how that person has acted so far. By locking in their behavior there is no option for them to ever do something different. The alignment system is therefore, as you put it, a guide to what actions result in that alignment — not a rulebook on how that alignment is to be played.
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

Unread post by Rhifox »

zhazz wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:59 pm This topic was brought up 8 or 9 years ago as well. It was heavily in favor of not implementing any such system due to the potential PvP friction it would create. The same issue persists today. While it is a nice spell to use in tabletop against a NPC, it is highly meta-gamey against other players. And it also subverts a lot of subterfuge role play. Gone is the doubt, and the convincing of others that someone is evil. Gone is the hiding of the wolf among the sheep through clever role play.
Ignoring that there's very easy ways of basically perfect invulnerability to detect evil. Now, it would make things a tiny bit more difficult to hide, but then hiding right now is basically guaranteed and requires no effort at all, so that's a positive. The deck is currently stacked very high in favor of the infiltrator.

And it is not meta-gamey. It is an IC spell. Metagaming is OOC.
Steve wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:56 pm f they can change at Level 30, then what does Alignment really matter? It just means it’s malleable and not so objective after all.
Objective doesn't mean that characters can never change. It means that what defines 'Good', 'Evil', 'Lawful', and 'Chaotic' are set in stone, that certain actions fall into one of those categories regardless of justification or intent.

Alignment is plenty malleable in DnD, even for usually/always [alignment] races. Though by rules, it tends to be something that should be hard to change, that you typically aren't going to flipflop. And if you are flipflopping, that means you should probably be neutral, not Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic.

Level 30 characters are not at the end of their character development. Considering how fast it is to get level 30 here, I'd even say they've barely begun. There's still room for them to grow and change and figure out who they really are and want to be.
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

Unread post by Steve »

You are putting a lot of faith in the playerbase to respect Alignment type(s), in their RP. Considering that how a player "plays" an Alignment is totally subjective, it then puts the onus on the DM Team to be policing the role-play even more so than before.

And I thought the paradigm was always "you cannot be told how to RP."

PCs will become known IG/IC as either Good, Evil, Lawful or Chaotic, via the spell-based mechanical determination. This will have a direct effect on how PCs are perceived, and will have a direct effect on how the Players can role-play in the environment. If that is the goal here, then okay.

But you know players will be pissed off plenty when: a) they are "outed;" b) they can't get their Alignment changed through RP because DMs are either not available or do not agree it is warranted; c) they are confronted by both IC and OOC issues regarding their PCs alignment, and have certain conflict/reaction RP pushed upon them.

I know this can go on and on for ever, because we are philosophizing on individual interpretation of the "rules" related to Alignment, so I'll intend for this to be my last point on the subject: I'm all for deep RP respect of the Alignment System and how that guides the manner in which a PC should be role-played—and yes, I believe Alignment before RP, not RP determines Alignment. But any "ask" of the playerbase to now start to particularly respect the nature of Alignment, brings the BGTSCC Server to a "high" RP Server, from it's low-to-maybe-mid RP Server status. Are you sure you really are going for that change?

Cheers.

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Almarea90
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

Unread post by Almarea90 »

To be completely honest I myself am undecided on this topic.

On one side I like the fact that we are bringing the game closer to PNP and a new spell would certainly offer more possibilities of roleplay with both pc and NPC.
As things are now people don't need a spell to "out" people. Most of the time rumors are taken as absolute truth and they are enough to label someone as evil or good. The spell imho could offer an additional IC way to investigate.

On the other hand I fear that, as someone pointed out to me, detect alignment will become the requisite for joining literally everything or being spoken to. I appreciate there are spells to hide it but the person to be checked with the spell could be asked (I wouldn't say to rest because that might be considered right out ooc) to be subject to a mordenkainen disjunction.
Another thing to consider is that because the DM aren't on 24 hours a day, someone's alignment won't reflect their actions 100%. There might be cases where someone who rarely joins DM events has a less accurate alignment than someone who is in each and every event or someone could just do good actions during DM events and then be a complete arse with other characters out of the events (or the other way around).
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

Unread post by Wolfshear »

The only reason this spell works in universe during a tabletop game is that every being is subject to the will of the gods (the dm) 24/7

Around a table alignment is a constantly shifting and malleable thing where really the only time someone would genuinely still ping as evil is either an actual devil or someone willfully constantly choosing to do naughty things. A person with a particularly tumultuous life could shift their alignment repeatedly. Alignment does not dictate your actions, it is a reflection of your actions.

But as I've said in previous posts we do not have that 24/7 dm oversight. We do not have that sliding malleable scale on alignment that could potentially make this work or be interesting. Ours is entirely static, theres no way to code in a reaction to every single moment of rp you do. Let alone what you do in events vs regular rp. Theres no way other than complete oversight which is impossible, to shift everyones alignment where they are supposed to be. If it were this could be interesting, you could see a good guys descent into brutality or a bad guys redemption. But we wont have that, it will just be "good guy good, bad guy evil". There will be no reflection of their actual current path until they manually rcr and change their alignment.

As it stand now, people will react to rumor and rp they have with that character, whether they are turning good or turning bad. With this spell they'll probably ignore all that and still class the good guy as good and the bad guy as bad and act accordingly. Despite the fact that realisticly it would show up differently on the radar. But there is no way to implement that at all, short of having dms watch over every conversation.

Honestly this will just cause more drama than it is worth and I stand by it removing nuance, because we absolutely do not have the resources to implement it in a way that would make it work.
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cosmic ray
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Re: Detect Alignment Spells

Unread post by cosmic ray »

I urge you not to add such an ability. It will hinder roleplay; not enhance it. As Wolfshear rightly says, this works in tabletop with a DM and, even then, not always.
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