Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

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Deragnost
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Deragnost »

Ithilan wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:47 am Further more the issue with the Song of Strength suggestion would be how it invalidates Ironskin Chant and the Sonic Weapon spell too. And given the sonic resistances on a fair number of bosses, it would be useless. So with all due respect, its not much of a solution at all.
Yeah. As I stated: that is a rushed example to show there's always a way to improve something if there's the will. :lol:
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Blackman D »

Ithilan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:34 pm
Blackman D wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:25 pm
Ithilan wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:11 am Is it a problem that epic precision allows you to bypass sneak immunities?
lets be fair now, this feat is a must have on high SA builds because without it you lose all your damage vs doing half with it, its not as if you get full damage or something

and anything crit immune with DR still drops your output quite a bit, just not to 0 like it would be otherwise
Which is the same effect many bard builds have when their Requiem is on cooldown, or the mob has sonic immunity. So I think its a really fair comparisson. The argument I see that bards can do anything best, is silly.

Dragon druids, warlocks, FvS, rangers and even some of my fighter builds have an easier time soloing things. They fall short in other designs, but yes bards are very strong overall, but a jack of all trades and master of very few. They stand out in a party play cause every one notice the +11 AB my own character provides them with, but im the worst performer in said party.

Perspective and data is important when wanting to change the fundamentals of a spec or class and comparing it to Hellball just simply aint it. Ill retract my self serving mud slinging from the topic now.
sure i can see that claim

but bard at least has a lot of utility and other methods to debuff or damage enemies be it from song/inspiration or spell; whereas a high SA build likely has SA and like nothing else, making it even worse when you cant even hide bc they dont need to be crit/sneak immune for you to be able to do nothing if they can easily spot you, then you simply die

i do agree tho it is only a few common but niche bard builds that are really powerhouses while cha bards are like meh but i think adding cha to songs would only encourage EDM bards so thats probably a bad idea - unless i guess there was a way to make it also require you have 20 or less str so it would not be possible to pick up EDM :?
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Deragnost
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Deragnost »

What about then, instead of having sonic immunities and so on, giving a Fortitude DC Check on Requiem? :think:
It would allow sonic spells to not be useless against enemies, and it would help even for characters to withstand it against a fortitude save.
I personally don't like it because it would nerf my bard, but it's better than "Let's destroy the bards!" :lol:

As for the sneaks... I feel your point Blackman, but it doesn't exist a perfect class and we shouldn't base ouselves on a build that we consider perfect and nerf the other builds based on who or what manages to defeat that build, like it's been done on other servers in the past.

Not saying this is what you're telling, mind: what I'm saying is every build / class has their nemesis.
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Blackman D »

yea anyone with eyes is the bane of a sneak :P

as for as the save tho you would be basically trading 0 damage for half damage because everything is gonna pass a fort check, but it would be better yea, and bards have enough songs that you are not going to be hindered having to use more anyway
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Theodore01 »

make it a will save, as the song is usally annoying.
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Deragnost »

Blackman D wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:35 pm yea anyone with eyes is the bane of a sneak :P
Very true! :lol:
Theodore01 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:15 pm make it a will save, as the song is usally annoying.
:lol: Very, but I don't think they added yet the status of "headache", as side-effect! :D
Blackman D wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:35 pm as for as the save tho you would be basically trading 0 damage for half damage because everything is gonna pass a fort check, but it would be better yea, and bards have enough songs that you are not going to be hindered having to use more anyway
Actually I chose Fortitude on purpose; that way it would give a chance to a bit everyone and everything to avoid at least half damage, without giving immunities to all. Will saves for that would be too punishing for the "receiver", while Reflexes - anyone with Evasion or Improved Evasion would just shrug it off.
Also I checked most of the sonic spells (like Shout and Greater Shout) and they have "Fortitude partial" written in the description.
EDIT: Alternatively it could be possible to have it on Reflexes, but - since the comparison with Hellball, we could add that Requiem also ignores Evasion and Improved Evasion! :lol: And we wouldn't be trading 0 damage for half damage only: I'd also be trading full damage for damage halved. :D


And besides, it's not like you can spam Requiem forever: once you cast it, you can't use it again for 2 other minutes. Two minutes cooldown is a lot, especially in PvP :lol:
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Ithilan »

I really dont think this suggested change is good either, with how bloated saving throws are on the server.

If we look at casters, for the most part they will resort to non-save spells for a very good reason, especially vs bosses.

A saving throw component of any kind for requiem makes it pretty aweful tbh. and like has been said in this topic, bards are not insanely overpowered, outside of a niche strength or EDM build, bards are very versatile and rounded, where as many other builds are specialists.

I dont think any changes to requiem is meritted, with how much you can counter it already and some bosses do. I think buffing epic spells is however and thats what the topic should really be about.

And just to touch on what Blackman D said, no, bards do not have enough songs as it is. Most bards end an adventure on 0 songs left, or very few if they had a nice party to do most the work. Because of the bugs with bard songs per day and how it caps out at 20 roughly (24 for Extra Music enjoyers) I find I never have enough myself. And to return to the SA build comparrison, this is not a factor for other classes DPS, they typically dont have a limited use per day for most essential abilities in their build. Bards do for all of them and are the most silence vulnerable class in the game too, you literally cancel out both inspirations and active songs with it. Yes they have joyful noise as a level 1 spell, that lasts a maximum of 1 minute. But thats a pre-meditated cast in all situations and a simple silence spell will make a bard a horrible gish rather :cry:

There is so much counter play for bards, that few other classes have really. Not to mention how every boss out there mords you or try and use spells with bloated DCs vs the bards pretty average to poor fortitude saving throws. I cant think of a reasonable change to requiem, given its fairly nerfed state on here already, one that wouldnt require fundemental changes to bards and fixing their songs per day and giving them a different usage of said songs to compensate. For it really is the SA of bard builds unless you are a power build. But then other power builds are way better.. I fail to see the issue.
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Deragnost »

Ithilan wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:52 pm Yes they have joyful noise as a level 1 spell, that lasts a maximum of 1 minute. But thats a pre-meditated cast in all situations and a simple silence spell will make a bard a horrible gish rather :cry:
Small OT: it also seems that a joyful noise won't prevent the bard to be silenced if the silence area has been cast on the ground, nor the immunity to the Silence spell :think: So I don't think bards have that immunity either anymore.
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Blackman D »

Deragnost wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:19 pm
Ithilan wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:52 pm Yes they have joyful noise as a level 1 spell, that lasts a maximum of 1 minute. But thats a pre-meditated cast in all situations and a simple silence spell will make a bard a horrible gish rather :cry:
Small OT: it also seems that a joyful noise won't prevent the bard to be silenced if the silence area has been cast on the ground, nor the immunity to the Silence spell :think: So I don't think bards have that immunity either anymore.
aoe silence has no save thats why, its affecting an area not a person per se

but like any spell immunity, the spell in question has to be directly targeted to you and as far as pve silence goes, mobs only ever target the ground that you are located, so it never triggers a save or immunity

but its a small aoe, you just move out of it, but yea have to reset inspirations if you are caught in it
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by cosmic ray »

Epic spells are garbage for the most part and should be improved and Hellball is certainly one of the worst, but the very worst by far is Damnation because it does not work in any dungeon, which is where you want to use epic spells. Most or all bosses are immune or highly resistant to epic spells so as to make them even worse - mage gets epic spells but cannot use them on the most epic enemies, only on the insignificant red shirts. :)))))))

Hymn of Requiem is a nice ability, I guess, but very overrated and it costs teo feats for the best effect, which is healing and not damage. Using it in pvp is a dumb move that works only against 3% of characters and in pve it is nice to have, but hardly necessary. A new bard character I made a while ago doesn't have it and I don't regret it at all. He doesn't need it to be as good or even better than my other bard char.

The OP's analysis is highly flawed.

Conclusion: epic spells should be improved across the board, stupid boss immunities to them should be removed, damnation should work in dungeons and not just in rp hub areas, hymn is already ok but not spectacular so it's fine in its current form.

Edit: as a disclaimer, I play more than one bard and more than one mage. I take epic spells for the flavour and I have moved away from requiem on bards due to finding other feats more useful.
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by Tekill »

I think we are all in agreement. We nerf Paladins immediately!
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

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Tekill wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:29 pm I think we are all in agreement. We nerf Paladins immediately!
:lol:

I disagree! Blackguards should be nerfed! :lol:
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by izzul »

Deragnost wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:34 pm
Tekill wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:29 pm I think we are all in agreement. We nerf Paladins immediately!
:lol:

I disagree! Blackguards should be nerfed! :lol:
I disagree, instead give Paladin the same PRC as Blackguard, mirror it and make it
-Cannot be taken at lvl 1 like paladin, need to have requirement(difference btw original paladin)
-Lawful Good
-non spellcasting(the BIG difference compared to original Paladin)
-get divine damage instead of sneak attack
-Aura +2 saves compare to -2 saves from Blackguard

and we can call it Lightguard
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Re: Epic Spells vs Requiem - A Comparison

Unread post by tankteddy »

You mean Bodyguard(NW9)
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