Rogue Questions

Suggestions or Mechanical Requests for Classes, Feats, Races, Etc.

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Deathgrowl
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Deathgrowl » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:26 am

I love shadowdancer 10. I have played one (rogue16/whirling dervish4/sd10) for years. The RP around the class is something that really appeals to me. And while it is offensively inferior to, say, assassin (the only option for hips for rogues), it has decent defensive capability.

That's not to say that it couldn't use some improvement. Right now, Shadowdaze, being 1use/day and subject to spell resistance means it is quite literally useless in every high-level area. The summoned shadow has undead levels so it gets decent HP, but that also means it has 10 BAB at level 20 (max), and with low saves and abilities, that doesn't make it worth much in any situation. I don't necessarily think it should be a fantastic summon like the palemaster summons or thaumaturge's summon creature/greater planar binding, but it needs some function. Some way of being useful.

Lorewise, the summon is almost akin to a mage's familiar. It's an undead shadow that is bound to the shadowdancer, sharing the alignment. And if the shadow is destroyed, the shadowdancer actually is hurt by it.

But at the same time, Blackman D's point about it giving all the things you need for epic dodge is still a valid one. You can build non-rogue (or low-rogue) characters with epic dodge. I made a fun archer build, for example, with shadowdancer10. Endelyon converted it into a crossbow build (CROSSBOWS ARE FOR PEASANTS!) and had great success with it. And we all know defense is something archers struggle with. So HiPS, epic dodge and shadow evade all help.
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:10 pm

These are fair points. Maybe it just feels underpowered because I expect it to be.

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:58 am

Some observations, and a question.

Based off this thread I decided to make a rogue, shadow dancer and take his shadow dancer levels to 10. Right now I'm at rogue 7/SD 8. I went to SD as soon as possible because I wanted to feel how well the abilities worked as they scaled.

If I waited too long for SD levels the early shadow evade and summon shadow abilities would be kind of useless.

Thought about going to rouge10 first for the extra sneak dice and crippling strike but decided to go this way instead. It's all about seeing the SD scale anyway.

Thoughts so far. The beefed up from vanilla summon shadow is pretty good. He's pretty decently tanky, holds agro and does ok damage.

My sneak dice are low, so I don't do the damage my SD dip character does, but with shadow there to keep my enemies focused on it I think I actually go through groups of them faster.

Duo'd with a warlock whose own summons gave me a pretty serious inferiority complex, but it is what it is. I do think maybe there should be a way to keep scaling your shadow of you go to SD 10, just so one of your signature abilities doesn't become useless, but I'll have a better take on that later I suppose.

Shadow Evade is nice. Works well. Seems to scale well. Kept me alive in some big group battles where I needed to hold my own for the sake of others not getting overwhelmed. Not much to say there.

Shadow Daze is not bad but should be on a timer. My other character uses Blinding Strike which is more useful (don't have to cast) and on a 45 second timer. I know the argument is that I can get it on this character, but I need my feat slots for TWF and the DC would be useless until the very end game after I've made up some sneak dice with epic feats.

Ultimately, so far going all in early, it's pretty good, much better than I thought. I'll chime in again as I get into higher levels.

My question is about equipment. My other character is in the UD and it's easy to find rogue/assassin gear. Not so much on the surface. There is the seven Suns and that's about it. I've heard there is a shrine to Mask in the harbor district, but if that is the unmarked building with Bill in it, he won't talk to me. Oh, and the guy in the blushing mermaid but his selection is not great. Am I missing something?

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Snarfy » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 am

Tanlaus wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:58 am
My question is about equipment. My other character is in the UD and it's easy to find rogue/assassin gear. Not so much on the surface. There is the seven Suns and that's about it. I've heard there is a shrine to Mask in the harbor district, but if that is the unmarked building with Bill in it, he won't talk to me. Oh, and the guy in the blushing mermaid but his selection is not great. Am I missing something?
The Mask store is through the door just to the left of that unmarked building. The selection there is also average, the gear there only being useful until you're in your mid-teens level-wise(except for the Wyvern dagger, that thing is great). The best gear you're likely to find is going to be on the auctions, and on the epic merchant, with a few pieces scattered over various other merchant NPC's... which I cant remember :? Smithy in Beregost might have the +3 hide/MS shortswords?

(Keep your eye on the auction, as it just so happens I'm about to RcR my Bard/SD sneak, and I'll be putting everything but his undies on there soon ;) )

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:08 am

Just to the left of that building with that shady ‘Bill’ character in it? Thanks.

Also, where is the epic merchant? Not that I will need them for some time.

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:18 pm

Tanlaus wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:08 am
Also, where is the epic merchant? Not that I will need them for some time.
In "The Wide" in the East Gate District.
Tanlaus wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:58 am
Duo'd with a warlock whose own summons gave me a pretty serious inferiority complex, but it is what it is. I do think maybe there should be a way to keep scaling your shadow of you go to SD 10, just so one of your signature abilities doesn't become useless, but I'll have a better take on that later I suppose.
It's already beefed up, I doubt it will get improved further. Warlocks are OP in general and not really a measuring stick when comparing classes/abilities. Do note with full UMD you have access to a full complement of arcane/divine/druid buffs with which to make your shadow double or even triple the strength it starts out as. Consider your shadow summon with Superior Resistance, Protection from Spells, Improved Mage Armor, Greater Heroism, Shadow Shield, Premonition/Shades, Shield of Faith, Deez's Repulsive Shadow Barrier, etc... Some of these will be shorter duration than others, but even with only long duration (24 hr, 1 hr/level, 10 min/level) it will be a pretty strong meat shield. Of course you would rarely, if ever go through the expense to use all of these buffs, but the fact that you are CAPABLE of using them makes for a potentially far greater/more powerful ally. Now, the Warlock has access to full UMD too, so theirs can still be stronger, but not at the same duration as yours!
Tanlaus wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:58 am
Shadow Evade is nice. Works well. Seems to scale well. Kept me alive in some big group battles where I needed to hold my own for the sake of others not getting overwhelmed. Not much to say there.

Shadow Daze is not bad but should be on a timer. My other character uses Blinding Strike which is more useful (don't have to cast) and on a 45 second timer. I know the argument is that I can get it on this character, but I need my feat slots for TWF and the DC would be useless until the very end game after I've made up some sneak dice with epic feats.
While I agree that Shadow Daze could use a timer (though probably like 2-5 minutes rather than 45 seconds and to be honest perhaps that timer is a bit too short for blinding strike), I disagree with it not being worthwhile on your character. Any saving throw has a chance for a 1 and you should still be able to fit it. Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, TWF, ITWF, GTWF = 6 feats. I can't think of any feat better/more imporant than blinding strike unless for RP purposes (in which case you can't really complain about not being able to fit it in, right?
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Deathgrowl » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:42 pm

chad878262 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:18 pm
Premonition/Shades (...) Deez's Repulsive Shadow Barrier
... If only you could cast them on others!

Other than that, Shadow Daze is almost completely useless past level 20, because it remains subject to spell resistance and almost everything has spell resistance or is immune to mind effects.
Great Reader Laitae Lafreth of Candlekeep
Nëa the Little Shadow
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:02 pm

Don’t get me wrong, I probably will take blinding strike at 18 (though I’ve found blind fight to be amazingly useful in the past so I may opt for that anyway) and it will have a decent DC by the end game but not great up until then. And there are a few feats with immediate tangible benefits I could take instead.

I do agree about shadow daze not needing a super short timer a few minutes would be fine.

I really don’t have much of an opinion on end game performance until I get there. But I’ll keep an open mind about how to keep my abilities effective.

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:28 pm

Tanlaus wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:02 pm
Don’t get me wrong, I probably will take blinding strike at 18 (though I’ve found blind fight to be amazingly useful in the past so I may opt for that anyway) and it will have a decent DC by the end game but not great up until then. And there are a few feats with immediate tangible benefits I could take instead.
At level 18 assuming R9/SD9...

DC: 10 + 5 (sneak dice) + 1 (1/5 Rogue level) + 3 (1/5 character level) = DC 19... While I certainly am not saying that is fantastic, it isn't terrible for CR 16-18 areas, especially when you consider up to that point you are really only "half a sneak". Of course in epics your DCs will skyrocket and at level 30 you would have 10 + 10 (sneak dice, without any feats on improved sneak attack) + 4 (Rogue 20) + 6 (CL 30) = 30. Blindfight is nice of course, but the advent of being able to (at significant expense) purchase CL30 Truesight potions makes it less required. It is rarely used after all and the few times when it's needed Truesight kind of gives similar bonus.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:35 pm

Oh, I did not know about the true sight potions! Yeah that changes the equation. I’ve already ruled out dash and stealthy thanks to that epic hood.

What I really need is a ‘gather lots of coin’ feat!

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:53 pm

wiki wrote:When a target has active mirror images or concealment spells then that spell's casterlevel + d20 is compared to true seeing's caster level + d20, each round. If the True Seeing caster beats the check concealment effects are negated for 1 round. The same check is made in a separate roll for mirror image, if the detection is successful the mirror image user incurs a -5 AC penalty for 1 round.

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=True_Seeing
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:08 pm

One thing about this server, which is great, is all of the custom items and gear. The caveat is you’re definitely going to make sub optimal build choices on your first character to reach 30, due to things you don’t know about. But that’s a minor price to pay for variety.

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by jeminizero » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:21 pm

Snarfy wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 am
the gear there only being useful until you're in your mid-teens level-wise(except for the Wyvern dagger, that thing is great).
While we're on the topic, could you elaborate on how the Wyvern Dagger works? What is the save DC?

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Snarfy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:20 am

jeminizero wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:21 pm
Snarfy wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 am
the gear there only being useful until you're in your mid-teens level-wise(except for the Wyvern dagger, that thing is great).
While we're on the topic, could you elaborate on how the Wyvern Dagger works? What is the save DC?
It's a Fortitude save vs. Negative energy, DC: 20 that fires on every hit. Which isn't half bad when you're landing flurries, and when used in conjunction with expose weakness/crippling strike. I cant remember what kind of STR damage the dagger does... I'd have to test that on a PC. I *think* it's either 1 or 1d2. No idea about duration either.

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Theodore01 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:19 am

As i used that dagger a long time ago, i found that poison ability almost worthless then. Maybe something was changed in-between.

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