Some PrC adjustments

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DaloLorn
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Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by DaloLorn » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:40 pm

This thread is the result of a Discord discussion occurring shortly before the OP was written.

There's something of an inconsistency in how different PrCs handle the caster levels of spell-like abilities. Most of the server's homebrew spellcasting classes use the PC's caster level (Olin Gisir, Silverstar, Harper Priest) or a similar measure (Stormsinger, Dissonant Chord) to determine the caster level for any spell-like abilities that mimic the effects of an actual spell. This allows them to scale roughly up to level 30, giving them a measure of utility even in late levels and against dispelling or spell-resistant opponents.

However, vanilla PrCs such as Arcane Archer and Warpriest do not scale with the player's full caster level, and instead only use the class level of the PrC that grants them. A particularly egregious example is Mass Heal, a spell normally available no sooner than level 17, being cast as a level 10 spell (consequently healing only 100 HP, on a spell whose theoretical minimum should be 170).

As such, I would propose that Arcane Archer and Warpriest are brought in line with the server's other PrCs, scaling their SLA CLs based on the character's CL in the spellcasting class that unlocked them.

(As a sidenote, I noticed that the SRD description for Imbue Arrow lets an arrow be imbued with any area spell, not just Fireball. Maybe we could get that, too? 8-))
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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:54 pm

DaloLorn wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:40 pm
As such, I would propose that Arcane Archer and Warpriest are brought in line with the server's other PrCs, scaling their SLA CLs based on the character's CL in the spellcasting class that unlocked them.

(As a sidenote, I noticed that the SRD description for Imbue Arrow lets an arrow be imbued with any area spell, not just Fireball. Maybe we could get that, too? 8-))
I agree on the Warpriest and I said this in every forum of every server. -5 CL for 10 BAB doesn't add up and free spell feats are also not useful since empowered healing doesn't work with the mass heals from my knowledge. As most expert builders will suggest only 4 levels of WP and that's it. Mainly because Divine Power makes WP obsolete. I proposed 7/10 CL levels, which makes sense. You are better off just War Domain for Martial or Exotic feats and maybe 3 level of Dragon Slayer for Tower shield and Tumble.

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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by chambordini » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:17 pm

Sure, though tbh probably not soon.

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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by DaloLorn » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:19 am

ARHicks00 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:54 pm
DaloLorn wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:40 pm
As such, I would propose that Arcane Archer and Warpriest are brought in line with the server's other PrCs, scaling their SLA CLs based on the character's CL in the spellcasting class that unlocked them.

(As a sidenote, I noticed that the SRD description for Imbue Arrow lets an arrow be imbued with any area spell, not just Fireball. Maybe we could get that, too? 8-))
I agree on the Warpriest and I said this in every forum of every server. -5 CL for 10 BAB doesn't add up and free spell feats are also not useful since empowered healing doesn't work with the mass heals from my knowledge. As most expert builders will suggest only 4 levels of WP and that's it. Mainly because Divine Power makes WP obsolete. I proposed 7/10 CL levels, which makes sense. You are better off just War Domain for Martial or Exotic feats and maybe 3 level of Dragon Slayer for Tower shield and Tumble.
You may want to read up on BG's changes to Warpriest and Divine Power before you make analyses like this. Your results are largely accurate, but the information they're based on is clearly not.

That being said, it's not even 10 BAB. Do the math - all divine casters have medium or high BAB, and 10 extra levels in a medium-BAB class will give you 7-8 BAB (depending on how many more levels you have in that class). You're losing 4 caster levels and a feat slot for 2-3 BAB, a few extra proficiencies, War Glory, Inflame, Implacable Foe, and a pile of SLAs that don't even do much because of their lousy CL.

Warpriest may be a lot less boring than something like Eldritch Knight, but it's also a lot less attractive.
chambordini wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:17 pm
Sure, though tbh probably not soon.
Do I hear a "yeah, if you get off your (hiney) and do it yourself"...? ;)

(Edit: Oh hey, autocensoring. That explains a few things. :lol:)
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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:10 pm

DaloLorn wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:19 am
You may want to read up on BG's changes to Warpriest and Divine Power before you make analyses like this. Your results are largely accurate, but the information they're based on is clearly not.

That being said, it's not even 10 BAB. Do the math - all divine casters have medium or high BAB, and 10 extra levels in a medium-BAB class will give you 7-8 BAB (depending on how many more levels you have in that class). You're losing 4 caster levels and a feat slot for 2-3 BAB, a few extra proficiencies, War Glory, Inflame, Implacable Foe, and a pile of SLAs that don't even do much because of their lousy CL.

Warpriest may be a lot less boring than something like Eldritch Knight, but it's also a lot less attractive.
1. 6/10 spellcasting is still not good. (Just my opinion) The requirements is also not good as Skill Focus: Concentration is better than combat casting. If you were trying to make a melee cleric with high BAB, you would end up with this.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?316514

22 to 26 Caster Levels caster clerics to make a tanky build with 26 BAB. If you went 10 Warpriest and 10 Hospitaler, you would be left with 21 to 25 caster levels. Dragon Slayer and Hospitaler gives you 20 to 24 caster levels. And because Greater Dispell is nigh on the level of spell breach/MD, anything below 27 level makes it hard for cleric to do epic level stuff.

2. Okay so it got nerfed into uselessness...gotcha. Does change the fact that WP doesn't have much going for it. War Domain gives you a free martial or exotic feats while it doesn't hurt much to get -2 AB for a tower shield for a cleric that excels at increase it's AB. My point was that Warpriest isn't bringing anything new to the table for a class that is already built for support.

- War Glory < Prayer and Battletide (Because you gets benefits from both spells)

- Infame < Remove Fear, Circle against Aliment, or Lionheart (Because two provide an immunity or saves)

- Fear Aura < Dreadmaster Fear Aura, Fear/Scare Spell, or any mind spell. (Because a cleric build puts more points to wisdom and most people do not go the full 10 levels for a reason)

- Battletide and Haste < Haste potions or the Battletide spell itself.

- Mass Heals and Implaceable foe are the only good abilities if were worth going 10 levels for.

If you are using a High BAB Divine PrC like WP, Hospitaler, or DS you are using those PrC to be more of a fighter/cleric-lite. And unlike a pure fighter, you're damage is still not good, but you are effective enough to make an opponent think twice about ignore you. Even if I dumped most of my points into a strength, a fighter still has me beat in the damage department. It's not about making a build that can do everything and be uber, but a build that doesn't have to wet it's pants whenever a low level caster casts greater dispel on him. Frankly, the two of the divine prcs would all get a 7/10 except Hospitaler. IN FACT, I made a suggestion a while back that the Warpriest requirement should be the War Domain instead of Combat Casting. In the Homebrew campaigns I ran, you had to be a devotee of a war deity with the war domain to be a warpriest. This make sense considering Warpriest has the word, "War" attached to it.

3. FYI, I would have just made divine power into a divine version of tenser transformation rather than nerfing it.

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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by DaloLorn » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:32 am

Honestly, even the Mass Heal SLA isn't that good in its current state. It literally heals less than that spell's theoretical minimum.
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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:28 am

DaloLorn wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:32 am
Honestly, even the Mass Heal SLA isn't that good in its current state. It literally heals less than that spell's theoretical minimum.
Oh wow.

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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by Blackman D » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:13 pm

6/10 progression is a minimum so PrCs can take PSC and have full progression

no other consideration is really taken after that because the point is for a base class and a PrC to still be able to reach 30 CL, if we had a higher minimum it would just allow for more dips without penalty of dispel
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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:20 pm

Blackman D wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:13 pm
6/10 progression is a minimum so PrCs can take PSC and have full progression

no other consideration is really taken after that because the point is for a base class and a PrC to still be able to reach 30 CL, if we had a higher minimum it would just allow for more dips without penalty of dispel
No one is going to play a level 10 Warpriest for reason noted above nor has ANYONE EVER TRIED. :lol: Not just this server, but any server because it's CL penalties are just to great to anything useful with and the feats/bonus it comes with really don't much for a class already built for support.

Actually that is wrong, Greater Dispel has a higher dispel chance than the original GD by Obisidian so even with 27 you can still get dispelled in this server. My whole point is that a low level shouldn't be able to dispel you. It's messed up if a level 17 can dispel a level 30 with 26 CL.

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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by Blackman D » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:08 pm

not wanting to take a PrC to 10 is independent of the 6/10 progression, that was done only with 20/10 builds in mind for full CL

if other class features are lacking then they can be looked at, but changing CL progression will likely not be touched on any PrC that is 6/10 or better (some PrC that were missed and were still 5/10 should have already been changed - so if there are still strays that are 5/10 or lower then those can be adjusted)
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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by chambordini » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:06 pm

The changes I'd do would be just correcting all the warpriest SLAs to use their warpriest's base class caster level, adding a few more uses to each or maybe making them cooldown based, and something about implacable foe, idk what just yet but it just seems like a trash thing for the last level.

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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by DaloLorn » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:02 am

chambordini wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:06 pm
The changes I'd do would be just correcting all the warpriest SLAs to use their warpriest's base class caster level, adding a few more uses to each or maybe making them cooldown based, and something about implacable foe, idk what just yet but it just seems like a trash thing for the last level.
Arcane Archer, too. I feel like Warpriest is hogging all the attention here. :P

And yeah, all of those look great.
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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:11 am

Blackman D wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:08 pm
not wanting to take a PrC to 10 is independent of the 6/10 progression, that was done only with 20/10 builds in mind for full CL

if other class features are lacking then they can be looked at, but changing CL progression will likely not be touched on any PrC that is 6/10 or better (some PrC that were missed and were still 5/10 should have already been changed - so if there are still strays that are 5/10 or lower then those can be adjusted)
I would say never. I making a case even if it doesn't get touched. Nothing wrong with asking as it is a suggestion forum. :lol: Again, 7/10 is not a big deal and you can't get 10/10.

Let explain it like this. 5/10 and 6/10 are not worth it because the feats that comes with these classes are not worth since a cleric can more than make up for what they don't have with spells. Kind of defeats the purpose of these PrCs when you can get these same bonus without using the PrCS. For example, Hiephorant are useless outside of master of energy or negative energy bonus feat (if it even works) because the empowered healing feat can be gotten from the healing domain. The only Dragon slayer is good for is tumble and Warpriest is only good for spot. The feats that they come with do little to improve on a class that can protect itself damage or increase it's AC/saves. Cleric can also negate damage done to them through healing spells. A cleric has to sacrifice 2 to 3 feat just to get a sub-par PrC that hurts their spellcasting progression and makes them more dispellable. I like the PrCS to be worth using.

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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by DaloLorn » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:30 am

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:11 am
For example, Hiephorant are useless outside of master of energy or negative energy bonus feat (if it even works) because the empowered healing feat can be gotten from the healing domain.
Wrong. So. Incredibly. Wrong.

Faith Healing is not Empowered/Augment Healing. It flat out doubles the output of all Cure/Mass Cure spells cast from the Hierophant's spellbook (including spontaneous casting), and stacks with the other two feats. (The exact nature of this stacking is unclear to me. It's probably additive.) I haven't tested it myself, but I also vaguely remember it doubling the output of Heal/Mass Heal.

Also, Blast Infidel does work, and I would argue that Advanced Divine Spellpower is also a fairly strong pick. (Toll of Nature and Gift of the Deity might also have some niche uses.)

Bottom line? Hierophants are a great choice for a dedicated divine caster, especially a cleric. Unlike Archmages, they don't even lose spell slots to get their special powers.
A cleric has to sacrifice 2 to 3 feat just to get a sub-par PrC that hurts their spellcasting progression and makes them more dispellable.
Subpar is open for debate, but you're wrong on the rest of this.

You're sacrificing one feat for Warpriest, and two for Dragon Slayer. Neither of these hurts spellcasting progression on their own, since a 6/10 progression can still be compensated for with Practiced Spellcaster.

For reference, these are the cleric/druid PrCs with any casting progression:
  • Dragon Slayer. 6/10 casting progression.
  • Dreadmaster (Bane only). 10/10 casting progression.
  • Darkfire Disciple. 8/10 casting progression, but requires Sneak Attack, so effectively 5/10.
  • Hierophant. Between 10/10 and 13/10 casting progression, depending on bonus feat selection. Full turning progression, plus an optional +4 from a feat; also a bonus feat for full Animal Companion progression.
  • Hospitaler. 6/10 casting progression.
  • Harper Priest. 5/5 casting progression with bonus feats for full Turn Undead or Animal Companion progression.
  • Master Alchemist. 5/5 casting progression.
  • Morninglord (Lathander only). 10/10 casting/turning progression.
  • Sacred Fist. 8/10 casting progression, though one often takes a monk dip for 5/10 or worse progression.
  • Silverstar of Selune (Selune only). 10/10 casting progression.
  • Shadow Adept. 10/10 casting progression.
  • Solar Channeler. 7/10 casting progression.
  • Stormlord (Talos only). 6/10 casting progression.
  • Thaumaturge. 5/5 casting progression.
  • Techsmith (Gond only). 10/10 casting progression.
  • Warpriest. 6/10 casting progression, 10/10 for Turn Undead.
There's a ton of divine PrCs out there, such that you could easily take only 5 cleric levels and still easily have a CL of 30 or more. All you'd be likely to lose (aside from feat slots :P) would be some Turn Undead progression.

Druids, favored souls and spirit shamans have it a little worse, since their base classes grant some pretty nice things up to level 30 (arguably only 20 for shamans and favored souls). But as a cleric, you're as free to mix and match as any arcane caster. (More free, even - sorcerers can't take many arcane PrCs at level 6 because they don't get third-circle spells at level 5, while wizards get a bonus spellcasting feat every 5 levels!)
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Re: Some PrC adjustments

Unread post by ARHicks00 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:02 pm

DaloLorn wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:30 am
ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:11 am
For example, Hiephorant are useless outside of master of energy or negative energy bonus feat (if it even works) because the empowered healing feat can be gotten from the healing domain.
Wrong. So. Incredibly. Wrong.

Faith Healing is not Empowered/Augment Healing. It flat out doubles the output of all Cure/Mass Cure spells cast from the Hierophant's spellbook (including spontaneous casting), and stacks with the other two feats. (The exact nature of this stacking is unclear to me. It's probably additive.) I haven't tested it myself, but I also vaguely remember it doubling the output of Heal/Mass Heal.

Also, Blast Infidel does work, and I would argue that Advanced Divine Spellpower is also a fairly strong pick. (Toll of Nature and Gift of the Deity might also have some niche uses.)

Bottom line? Hierophants are a great choice for a dedicated divine caster, especially a cleric. Unlike Archmages, they don't even lose spell slots to get their special powers.
A cleric has to sacrifice 2 to 3 feat just to get a sub-par PrC that hurts their spellcasting progression and makes them more dispellable.
Subpar is open for debate, but you're wrong on the rest of this.

You're sacrificing one feat for Warpriest, and two for Dragon Slayer. Neither of these hurts spellcasting progression on their own, since a 6/10 progression can still be compensated for with Practiced Spellcaster.

For reference, these are the cleric/druid PrCs with any casting progression:
  • Dragon Slayer. 6/10 casting progression.
  • Dreadmaster (Bane only). 10/10 casting progression.
  • Darkfire Disciple. 8/10 casting progression, but requires Sneak Attack, so effectively 5/10.
  • Hierophant. Between 10/10 and 13/10 casting progression, depending on bonus feat selection. Full turning progression, plus an optional +4 from a feat; also a bonus feat for full Animal Companion progression.
  • Hospitaler. 6/10 casting progression.
  • Harper Priest. 5/5 casting progression with bonus feats for full Turn Undead or Animal Companion progression.
  • Master Alchemist. 5/5 casting progression.
  • Morninglord (Lathander only). 10/10 casting/turning progression.
  • Sacred Fist. 8/10 casting progression, though one often takes a monk dip for 5/10 or worse progression.
  • Silverstar of Selune (Selune only). 10/10 casting progression.
  • Shadow Adept. 10/10 casting progression.
  • Solar Channeler. 7/10 casting progression.
  • Stormlord (Talos only). 6/10 casting progression.
  • Thaumaturge. 5/5 casting progression.
  • Techsmith (Gond only). 10/10 casting progression.
  • Warpriest. 6/10 casting progression, 10/10 for Turn Undead.
There's a ton of divine PrCs out there, such that you could easily take only 5 cleric levels and still easily have a CL of 30 or more. All you'd be likely to lose (aside from feat slots :P) would be some Turn Undead progression.

Druids, favored souls and spirit shamans have it a little worse, since their base classes grant some pretty nice things up to level 30 (arguably only 20 for shamans and favored souls). But as a cleric, you're as free to mix and match as any arcane caster. (More free, even - sorcerers can't take many arcane PrCs at level 6 because they don't get third-circle spells at level 5, while wizards get a bonus spellcasting feat every 5 levels!)
1. Literally Empowered Healing works the same way, but if it stacks that would Healing Domain than it would be overpowered.

2. Literally, no ask for this list...

3. I was talking about Battle/Melee cleric related PRCs, not every Divine PRCs.

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