Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

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Invoker
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Invoker »

Thids wrote:
Invoker wrote: We're talking of a community wanting to delete (lol!) Favored Soul. People that can't live with others having HiPS or Evasion. Any number of non-arcane players voted for Bigbies to be removed from the game (status quo, basically). Dragon Druids are permanently under fire. I can recall threads asking for Bard nerfs. Some even went as far as saying Shadow Adept is OP, recently...
People can't live? That's a bit of an overstatement. The only person I remember quitting over mechanical reasons is you ;)
I see you identify yourself in there. Interesting.

So...for you not wanting to play a broken game where stuff doesn't work, and that crashes every now and then, in favor of other games that are NOT broken and stable is quitting for...mechanical reasons?

Google "mechanics", pls :lol:

Nice troll, btw.

Now you can talk about MT.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Planehopper »

As a general warning before things go sideways.. Please use this thread constructively. Please do not troll, respond to trolls, attack one another, or drift off track.
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Side
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Side »

Is the problem the 30cl in both arcane and divine, or is it the cost needed to get it? Mystic Theurge could give 6cl in both, so you can still get 30cl but it will cost you two feats. I personally think this, coupled with Valefort's idea, would be enough to keep it in line.

If not would it be possible to set CL requirements on each Mystic Theurge level? That way in order to get max CL in either arcane or divine you also have to get it in the other? It would require 10 levels in both an arcane and a divine class in order to get all the possible CL out of the PRC, and so a dip like the previously mentioned 16 wizard 4 cleric would be impossible.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

Aeili's last resort in a melee, aka God-Mode, is Divine Power (extended), Haste (Extended), Elemental Shield (Extended), Divine Favor (Extended) and then Shapechange - Iron Golem. 7 attacks @ 52 AB, 53 AC & Immunity to criticals, sneaks &tc isn't too bad of a melee, even if it only lasts 2-3 minutes. Of course one dispel and she explodes, but its fun to use occasionally.

@Side: Where are you getting '30 CL in both' from? It's an impossibility. Even a 10/10 CL version of MT with Practiced Spellcaster in both casting classes is going to be missing 12 CL. The question is simply which class/es it will be missing from.

Eg. Wiz 16/Cler 4/MT 10 = 30/18 CL (12 CL missing from cleric)

Wiz 10/Cler 10/MT 10 = 24/24 CL (6 CL missing from wizard, 6 from cleric)

Wiz 5/Cler 15/ MT 10 = 19/29 CL. (11 CL missing from wizard, 1 from cleric)
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

Speaking to the posts about spellbooks and CL

CL 21 everything can still be dispelled - the lower caster level is important because it drives the focus towards being a mystic theurge as it would require the levels.. Spells per day are easier to acquire through items so capping those is probably not the best idea additionally you'd probably want the spell items in addition since your spells are weaker...

Really as a current pseudo MT more spells would be better as more likelihood of using spells that generally don't see play to counter balance the low dc i.e. mind fogs etc... A mind blank for team or prot alignment would then also be beneficial as we've the luxury of playing on a full pvp server.

I admit mind fog is not as likely just because of the rate fights are etc.. but, embrace the idea of that direction for just a moment. Hammer of gods, blinds etc...

I already kind of get to do that but, as an MT chances are you'd have a reserve feat an then maybe more damage from spells. Though not necessarily.. Then allowing for more spells like hold monster., curse, crushing despair.. Though the mind fog must dc check etc.. It'd be more likely to occur as a common battle practice.

Its about supporting existing roles, supporting groups where persons have skills of roles a mystic theurge is based but, not necessarily focused those roles; Or just you know.. That group where that one person can solo the dungeon an you're just like hey; look what I can do.... I think a lot of RP builds can relate to that last one..


The existing MT PrC would need adjusting to fit caster limitations. Get approval - if it was acceptable it'd probably already be implemented.


I agree many of the buffs a MT casts can be found on armor aside from GMW or align weapon which at my current CL21 is roll to dispel.

Also improved mage armor and spiderskin dispels - I don't know who got the idea it doesn't but I'll take a screenshot next time it happens if evidence necessary. I admit they persist through rests at times an that is odd but, they will dispel, less I lost my mind.


Usually best way to handle dispels as MT is make sure a person interrupts that caster [or my case I try to] and don't buff too much just - buff what is most useful at that time. Stay out of range of dispels etc...
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Side »

Tsidkenu wrote: @Side: Where are you getting '30 CL in both' from?
Valefort wrote:1. Disable divine power spell for Mystic Theurges, that's a good part of the power concerns erased.

2. Halve the spells per day given by the base classes (using the same mechanic as Archmage high arcanas) so that Mystic Theurges get around the same number of spells compared to a usual caster.

For example a generalist wizard with 20 levels of arcane progression gets 4 spells per day for each level (then the bonus slots given by his intelligence modifier and eventually his gear), instead if he has Mystic Theurge levels he would get 2 arcane spells per day for each level.

To continue the example a wizard 10/cleric 10/MT 10 would be CL 30 in both arcane and divine but would only get around the same number of spells per day as a 30 wizard or a 30 cleric.

That way MT could be a 10/10 progression for both base classes without being a power concern I believe, what do you think ?
Unless I was reading it wrong there was a fair amount of discussion involving the class allowing 30CL in both arcane and divine magic. It's very possible I missed something though, and if that's the case I do apologize. Looking at it now it does seem like it should be around 20 max without Practiced Spellcaster if you balance them both, but I'm tired so I'll let more alert people continue the conversation without me.
Passiflora wrote: AS A DROW you will kill DUERGARS for like..... lvl 9 to 25. A DAMN LOT OF DUERGARS.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

^^

yes look for the responses from Chad explaining that. page 3 - 5 I believe

It seems more logical.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Valefort »

Oh right I had a full brainfart there, it would be CL 24 in both, not 30 -_-
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by BigJ »

You know it strikes me that if it had been kept simple it would have been added to the game already.

Cleric / Wizard Only.
6/10 progression.
Gains both practised caster feats (Wiz / Cleric, so no need for a new feat)
Even up the hp from d4 to d6, so it sits between the two.

^^ That would have caused much less discussion if thread 1 had started with that, but two full threads later and still being tossed about.

Get the above IG, let the experienced RP's play with it and go from there. It is much easier to add later than to take away.

But whilst all manner of possible build combo's exist (Especially FS or charisma based) and scripting/building is required to create, the more discussion there will be and the harder it is, I assume, for QC to sign off.

There is still the point somebody mentioned of what RP it takes away from other single spell book builds (Crafters and healers, mainly I suppose), but if there are not to many MT's running around (As per Sigil, reading the forums) then it shouldn't effect to much.

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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by chad878262 »

Convolutedline wrote:Also improved mage armor and spiderskin dispels - I don't know who got the idea it doesn't but I'll take a screenshot next time it happens if evidence necessary. I admit they persist through rests at times an that is odd but, they will dispel, less I lost my mind.
These are not the buffs that were mentioned that do not dispel, it was GMW and Magical Vestment. Also, you can't always trust the character sheet...it will show that they have been dispelled, or at least partially will, but the combat log will show otherwise.


I updated the QC discussion on MT with a recommendation to restart the conversation on the class, but it has to get in line and there are MANY other items devs are working on so no promises we will come to consensus or it will get in at all, much less soon.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Invoker »

BigJ wrote:You know it strikes me that if it had been kept simple it would have been added to the game already.

Cleric / Wizard Only.
6/10 progression.
Gains both practised caster feats (Wiz / Cleric, so no need for a new feat)
Even up the hp from d4 to d6, so it sits between the two.

^^ That would have caused much less discussion if thread 1 had started with that, but two full threads later and still being tossed about.
Yes.

Except, that was suggested in the former thread Tsidkenu linked, and shot down because it was underpowered.

The 10/10 progression ALSO was shot down because underpowered, if I remember well (OP wanted CL 30/30, ideally). I was personally maintaining that Caster Level 30/18 MT would have been far from weak, and the opinion wasn't well received.
For the record, I still believe such a character would be clearly superior to a single lvl 30 pure wizard or cleric if built and PLAYED correctly, and to many variants as well (Wiz20/ASoC10 comes to mind).

Even a CL 30/13 would be fine to play, although I would personally modify the internal CL balance for my own build if that were the implementation.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by chad878262 »

The iteration I have suggested in QC is the following (this is only my suggestion and has received no comments from anyone else in QC, therefore it is unlikely to be what a final implementation would look like, were the class to be approved and added to the server).
Requirements

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks

Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.

Class Restriction: Wizard only (arcane); Cleric or Druid only (Divine), may not have any other base class.

PRC Restriction: May not have any other PRC. (so only builds is W/C/MT or W/D/MT)

Deity Restriction: Must worship a Deity with the Magic Domain. (Akadi, Azuth, Leira, Lliira, Mystra, Siamorphe, Laduguer, Kiaransalee, Henali Celanil, Sehanine Moonbow, Baravar Cloakshadow, Segojan Earthcaller, or Brandobaris)

**Deity restriction may need to be expanded for consideration of Druid MT's**
***Divine Power is disabled / cannot be cast by a character with the Mystic Theurge PRC***

Class Features:
BAB: Low
Saves: High Will, low fort/reflex
Spell Casting Progression: 9/10 in primary, 6/10 in secondary (I think I had level 5 or 6 as the 'dead' level for the primary and levels 2, 4, 7, and 9 for the secondary.)
Why did I set it up like this? Well, looking at a few different build options shows the following:

1. W17/C3/MT10 you could have CL30 Wizard with PSC and CL: 9 (13 w/ PSC) for Cleric (or Druid).
2. W10/C10/MT10 would give CL 23 for the primary and CL20 for the secondary.
3. W11/C9/MT10 where Cleric is selected as the 'primary' casting class. This would give CL17 in Wizard, CL18 in Cleric (21/22 with PSC).

So by balancing it in this way, you can reach exactly CL30 in your primary casting class by taking Practiced Caster and limiting your secondary casting class to 3 levels, but you also can just barely reach the ability to cast level 9 spells in both classes, though you have to deal with having minimal CL in both as well.

As I said above, I just recently posted this and there has been no QC discussion around it. Even if there is I'm pretty sure leveling/progressing two spell casting classes is probably pretty complicated/difficult to build and implement so would take some time. In any case, this should ONLY be taken as my opinion, and not that of the staff or management of BGtSCC :P :lol:

Anyway, enjoy ripping it to shreds for being underpowered or what not. :mrgreen:
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

I kind of liked the idea of there being option to choose a different PrC that isn't arch mage or hierophant.. Like palemaster an such That would be at cost of CL even x.x :s an I liked there being more deity options for domain choices as well as rp choices. Like a palemaster theurgist probably isn't the best idea because would lose caster levels from progression... I don't know that cutting all those out is necessary so much as the previously stated concern for covering archmage territory or hierophant territory unduly


A few don't have magic as a domain from nwn2 wik
Kiaransaleei :( http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Kiaransalee

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Sehanine_Moonbow

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Baravar_Cloakshadow

Unless you mean illusion but, I don't know that that is always necessarily magical.

I'm not sure what strength divine power would offer a mystic theurge with low strength but, I suppose people would find a way x.x
Last edited by Convolutedline on Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by chad878262 »

Don't look at NWN2 wiki for details on BGtSCC domains... look on the server rules and information forum:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=55613

There are classes other than Hierophant/Archmage that can increase caster level and/or DC's (Red Wizard, Shadow Adept, Blood Magus). There is also the HiPS mage, which would become the HiPS Theurge, W14/C3/MT10/SD3... Or a blaster could potentially make great use out of W5/ASOC7/C8/MT10 with lots of advanced meta magic that can also be applied to cleric spells with CL22 Wizard, CL21 Cleric and 9th level spells from both. Sure, the DC's are low, but you've got lots of metamagic and lots of spell slots and can get auto-still 0-9. It is always easier to relax requirements after implementation than it is to tighten them up if you implement it with too much power (no fun taking away stuff from players after they've built it). So as you can see, the potential for power creep exists outside of Archmage/Hierophant.

with regard to Divine Power, you could build your Character with 16 INT and 13 WIS and wear +3 items to hit 19/16 so you can cast level 9 wizard spells and level 6 cleric spells. then you get STR as high as you can get it with CON / DEX in the 10-14 range. Buff to the fullest and divine power and you are now the most powerful gish ever, with the full availability of Wizard and Cleric buffs. Yes, you can be dispelled, but honestly, your heavily armored, Magic Vestment will stick on your armor and Shield and you have plenty of spells to rebuff. This is why Divine Power was listed as not available for the MT.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

That makes sense ^^

ok

yea Im just thinking the weaker PrCs like frost mage / palemaster / scholar of candlekeep

I dunno about cleric maybe hospitaler? I don't know of cleric caster PrCs aside from Hierophant :o
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