Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Suggestions or Mechanical Requests for Classes, Feats, Races, Etc.

Moderators: Moderator, Quality Control, Developer, DM

Post Reply
User avatar
Convolutedline
Recognized Donor
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:53 pm
Location: California, Long Beach
Contact:

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

how can it be built? if I build it will it work

tell me of a mighty tutorial !

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18495
chad878262
QC Coordinator
Posts: 9334
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by chad878262 »

Kaedrin already made a MT class, it would need to be modified/balanced for our server, but it wouldn't be building from scratch. I don't know how to do these things and my thought is our devs have so much on their plates this would be considered a low priority right now.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
User avatar
Convolutedline
Recognized Donor
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:53 pm
Location: California, Long Beach
Contact:

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

Ok I will look up source content references an post here for sounding board


https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... ition-pack

it looks overpowered just reading his desscription of it but, it might be useful as a template!

Note: It is impossible for dual spellcasting classes to choose spells known for both classes. The engine is limited and only looks for the first class if it needs new spells. This means that a Mystic Theurge will not get to pick new spells on MT levels

I am new to this but, would probably help me learn coding so, would be good if I can figure it out. Though I admit my chances of success are low :)

Kaedrin said he'd never make a mystic theurge but, a person by sn Draco did x.x :D
User avatar
Convolutedline
Recognized Donor
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:53 pm
Location: California, Long Beach
Contact:

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

http://nwn2cc.wikidot.com/mystictheurge


Requirements:

Skills: Lore 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks

Spellcasting: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 1st-level arcane spells.

Class Features:

- Hit Die: d4

- Base Attack Bonus: Low.

- High Saves: Will.

- Proficiencies: A Mystic Theurge does not gain any additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

- Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier.

- Class Skills: Concentration, Craft Alchemy, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Diplomacy, Heal, Lore, Spellcraft.

- Spells per Day / Spells Known:Each level, the Mystic Theurge gains new spells per day as if they had also gained a level in both their arcane spellcasting class and their divine spellcasting class. No new spells are learned through this ability, however.

Note: The Mystic Theurge could not be implemented properly in NWN2 and therefore it doesn't work completely as it should. The casterlevel progression works perfectly, but it is impossible for sorcerers and wizards to choose new spells at levelup. To learn new spells, sorcerers have to level up in their base class. Therefore the starting level for the arcane class is set to 1 so you can alternate MT levels with sorcerer levels to learn new spells.
Gilgamesh
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:32 am

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Gilgamesh »

I would love to see this class added to the game for every one that thinks it over powered think about the fact that you can only cast one spell a round in the game,. Sure you get access to the most power full ones but these are not more than any of the epic spells now in play. yes you get more spell but compared to the warlock blast that they can do over and over its not much. You do in the end get way slower spell progress and lower caster levels.
If you wish to nerf it a bit make it so that you get one of the two spell classes for spell progress in the first 4 levels or so.

What I have not read in the Thread is the stuff about role play I think it should be limited in the classes that can take it and maybe a few power build should be take out of it like sorceress cleric or druid any Limiting it to a cleric mage seam to make since. Also requiring that the pc follow some gods like a gonds man dose to I would suggest Mystra
and Deneir

I love the class and have played it on other game server and found it a lot harder to play than you think it is at first glance sure have a lot of spell sound great but since you can only cast one a round it don't work out to be all that great. Yes you don't run out as fast but dose a warlock ever run out of hast and or invisablty castings. In a game like Balders gate you often rest before running out of spells now any ways the truth of the matter in playing it on other server's is its balanced out with the way the game is played. Getting the role play balance is as important as it is the few extra things a cleric get based on god that make it
open to some more power builds and or the shifting of a druid. that's my 2 cents worth any ways for better or worse
User avatar
Invoker
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:21 pm

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Invoker »

Gilgamesh wrote:I would love to see this class added to the game for every one that thinks it over powered think about the fact that you can only cast one spell a round in the game,.


Aside from the fact that Quicken Spell allows you to cast two spells per round, one per round would be enough already.
Sure you get access to the most power full ones but these are not more than any of the epic spells now in play.


Actually, there is only one Epic Spell that is clearly more powerful than conventional spells. And that doesn't really change the eval on Mystic Theurge.
yes you get more spell but compared to the warlock blast that they can do over and over its not much.


Mystic Theurge would be easily as strong, and more versatile than a lock. Which is already an extremely strong class. It qualifies as overly powerful, and needing review before implementation.
What I have not read in the Thread is the stuff about role play I think it should be limited in the classes that can take it and maybe a few power build should be take out of it like sorceress cleric or druid any Limiting it to a cleric mage seam to make since.
I agree.
This twisted culture got you feeding from its hand
But you will lose that food if you don't meet all their demands
And loyal is the soldier that gets slaughtered with the lambs
Examining the blueprints got you questioning the plans
User avatar
Tsidkenu
Posts: 3961
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 12:04 am
Location: Terra Nullis

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

Gilgamesh wrote:What I have not read in the Thread is the stuff about role play I think it should be limited in the classes that can take it and maybe a few power build should be take out of it like sorceress cleric or druid any Limiting it to a cleric mage seam to make since.
And that was exactly my point in the thread dawrf made about MT. Why do these discussions end up revolving about the mechanics of the class and getting the most bang for your buck instead of roleplaying a character concept (like I've done with Aeili).

Limit the pre-requisite classes to wizard/cleric, sorcerer/cleric, wizard/druid or sorcerer/druid and wizard/spirit shaman (no Sorc/SS, Sorc/FS or wiz/FS). Split DC stats leave for one weaker class.
User avatar
Valefort
Retired Admin
Posts: 9783
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:07 pm
Location: France, GMT +2

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Valefort »

1. Disable divine power spell for Mystic Theurges, that's a good part of the power concerns erased.

2. Halve the spells per day given by the base classes (using the same mechanic as Archmage high arcanas) so that Mystic Theurges get around the same number of spells compared to a usual caster.

For example a generalist wizard with 20 levels of arcane progression gets 4 spells per day for each level (then the bonus slots given by his intelligence modifier and eventually his gear), instead if he has Mystic Theurge levels he would get 2 arcane spells per day for each level.

To continue the example a wizard 10/cleric 10/MT 10 would be CL 30 in both arcane and divine but would only get around the same number of spells per day as a 30 wizard or a 30 cleric.

That way MT could be a 10/10 progression for both base classes without being a power concern I believe, what do you think ?
Mealir Ostirel - Incorrigible swashbuckler
BigJ
Posts: 324
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:01 pm
Location: UK

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by BigJ »

Tsidkenu wrote: And that was exactly my point in the thread dawrf made about MT. Why do these discussions end up revolving about the mechanics of the class and getting the most bang for your buck instead of roleplaying a character concept (like I've done with Aeili).
Mostly because the spell casting classes are the most powerful classes on BG, and anything that could potentially widen that gap gets scrutinised more (especially FS).

If MT is given to much then you'll see a lot of them, not least because classes that do not have to rely on others tend to attract (Didn't this happen on Sigil?).

I'm all for an MT being added to allow role players to play it, in which case power should not matter, but its the rest that see something shiny and want to run round the server with it that's always the concern.

Making the restriction Cleric/Wizard only to begin with will allow more room for an MT class, without taking away RP from existing pure arcane or divine players. It will be like a crafter PrC, but with more power.

Include more class combinations then that ups the scrutiny, reduces what you can add to the MT re balancing.

BigJ
For Ref: My OOC stuff is OOC, my IG stuff is IG, never let the two entwine.
Active PC - Bugg
Past PC's - Bhin'erin Yauntyrr - BIO Istar'rada - BIO Barbaccas - BIO Deceased . Sandrue Tomas - BIO and journal the Ugly Poet[/i]
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Steve »

Wizard 10 / Cleric 10 / MT 10 would be 30 CL in both
So MT provides x2 CL per level? And to all caster classes?!?

I would think it more balanced for MT to provide x1 per casting class, with option for Spellpowers feats going to both classes (Max SP III), thus the build above having CL 27 (if you take Practiced for both casting classes).

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
chad878262
QC Coordinator
Posts: 9334
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by chad878262 »

Steve wrote:
Wizard 10 / Cleric 10 / MT 10 would be 30 CL in both
So MT provides x2 CL per level? And to all caster classes?!?

I would think it more balanced for MT to provide x1 per casting class, with option for Spellpowers feats going to both classes (Max SP III), thus the build above having CL 27 (if you take Practiced for both casting classes).
I agree with Steve, W10/C10/MT10 should be CL 20 in both, 24 w/ PSC in both classes. I don't necessarily agree with giving spell power out though, since I feel if you want to reach the higher CL for either Arcane or Divine you should not be able to reach the high level spells in the second class. Either be an even split with 9th level spells, but lower caster level or favor one class with low-mid level spells in the other. However, I do feel a bit better about allowing the higher CL if the spells/day are decreased... Some really nice ideas, Valefort.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Steve »

chad878262 wrote:I don't necessarily agree with giving spell power out though, since I feel if you want to reach the higher CL for either Arcane or Divine you should not be able to reach the high level spells in the second class. Either be an even split with 9th level spells, but lower caster level or favor one class with low-mid level spells in the other. However, I do feel a bit better about allowing the higher CL if the spells/day are decreased... Some really nice ideas, Valefort.
I wouldn't mind Spellpowers only going to 1 spellcasting class or another, however, that would, in my humble opinion, require BGTSCC to reset the Dispel line to Vanilla NWN2 saves.

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
Valefort
Retired Admin
Posts: 9783
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:07 pm
Location: France, GMT +2

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Valefort »

Then perhaps Mystic Theurge ideas should wait until dispel mechanics are reviewed, once that will be settled for the foreseeable future it will be easier (more like possible, unlike now) to make an interesting MT class.
Mealir Ostirel - Incorrigible swashbuckler
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Steve »

Valefort wrote:...wait until dispel mechanics are reviewed, once that will be settled for the foreseeable future ...
So now one has to ask: is this being reviewed currently?!?

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
Invoker
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:21 pm

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Invoker »

Tsidkenu wrote:Why do these discussions end up revolving about the mechanics of the class and getting the most bang for your buck instead of roleplaying a character concept (like I've done with Aeili).
The great RP of any class is the assumption under which it's even worth discussing its implementation, so I think that's granted, already. At least for me.

The conversation revolves around mechanics because it's the "Mechanics" subforum.

What you've done with Aeili is RPing, and for the sake of RPing. However, what several other people (two of which played with me quite extensively) did with Wiz/Cle combos of old, was to exploit the CL bug to disgusting levels of power. Not that I have anything against it, mind you, but the fact remains the combination was an exploit, and a stupidly powerful one at that (again, I believe you when you say you didn't take advantage of it. The fact remains, though).
Valefort wrote:Then perhaps Mystic Theurge ideas should wait until dispel mechanics are reviewed, once that will be settled for the foreseeable future it will be easier (more like possible, unlike now) to make an interesting MT class.
It IS possible to make an interesting MT class.

What is NOT possible (without it being broken), is to make an UNDISPELLABLE MT class (one CL 30 half, with the other half still being very relevant).

In addition, it would be a character with high skill cap, meaning 90% of the people would play it wrong, and then complain it's weak.

Incidentally, this was one of the reasons I had advocated caution in regards to the CL fix (the other big one being Rogues as a whole and 10 lvl spellcasting PrCs like Assassin and Blackguard for instance, as well as stuff like BFZ) and the blow to variety it would deliver.
This twisted culture got you feeding from its hand
But you will lose that food if you don't meet all their demands
And loyal is the soldier that gets slaughtered with the lambs
Examining the blueprints got you questioning the plans
Post Reply

Return to “Mechanics”