Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Suggestions or Mechanical Requests for Classes, Feats, Races, Etc.

Moderators: Moderator, Associate Dev, Quality Control, DM

Sun Wukong
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Sun May 20, 2018 5:23 am

Revision: 1940
Author: Valefort
Date: Thursday, May 10, 2018 3:47:06 PM
Message:
Phantom WIS to AC capped by Phantom levels.
This is the base class: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Phantom

Phantom gets no armor or shield proficiencies.

Therefore the AC of a level 1 phantom is just their dexterity modifier +1 from wisdom. At level two you get +2 from wisdom. This means that any phantom character started from scratch will struggle to get that AC up. I mean, even if you start out with 18 in both wisdom and dexterity, a level one phantom will have AC of 15. This is very low, because any mob with AB of 0, will still land a hit by rolling 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20. This means that there is a 30% chance that a mob's hit lands. At level one, how many hits can you really take with base 6 hitpoints per level? 'In other words, the real question is; how lucky do you feel today?'

I suppose this change was done to negate wisdom AC for druids and maybe for clerics. But quite frankly, just remove the wisdom AC while under Polymorph or Shapechange effect. As for wisdom based clerics, you kind of get the same if not more AC with fullplate and heavy shield.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.

User avatar
Valefort
Lead Programmer
Posts: 8865
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:07 pm
Location: France, GMT +2

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Valefort » Sun May 20, 2018 5:55 am

Good point, I'll make the cap kick in at WIS 20.
Mealir Ostirel - Incorrigible swashbuckler

Sun Wukong
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Sun May 20, 2018 7:02 am

So... let us assume a phantom character has wisdom ability score of 30.

With one level of phantom: Is it +5 or +6 AC?
With two levels of phantom: Is it +6 or +7 AC?
With three levels of phantom: Is it +7 or +8 AC?
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.

User avatar
Valefort
Lead Programmer
Posts: 8865
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:07 pm
Location: France, GMT +2

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Valefort » Sun May 20, 2018 7:10 am

You didn't get it, it would be respectively 1, 2, 3.

Since their WIS is superior to 20 it's capped by the number of Phantom levels, a Phantom level 1 with 18 WIS will get +4 AC however.
Mealir Ostirel - Incorrigible swashbuckler

Sun Wukong
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Sun May 20, 2018 9:35 am

Ah, that explains it better. I honestly had no idea what you meant earlier.

Alright, so lets assume that I roll a Aasimar Phantom with starting Wisdom of 20. My character drinks a potion of Owl's Wisdom, his wisdom is now 24 at level one. Does he still get +5 AC, or just +1?
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.

User avatar
KOPOJIbPAKOB
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:24 am

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Sun May 20, 2018 10:54 am

I hardly see a point of this nerf. Phantom is already 50 (!!!) times less popular than rogue (according to server stats). I tried to start playing as a phantom and his start is horrible and extremely tough (even with WIS to armor). I think this class needs some love, not further merciless nerfing.
(\/);,;(\/)

Known as:
Dasha
Gerfrex
Zul (Zulandi Ukwanda)
Alkor Deezelisk
Zee'Aerie


Please don't metagame my journals.

User avatar
Valefort
Lead Programmer
Posts: 8865
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:07 pm
Location: France, GMT +2

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Valefort » Sun May 20, 2018 10:59 am

@Sunwukong

He'd get +7 AC because it checks for base score without racial modifiers.

@KOPOJIbPAKOB

You realize this won't hurt anyone except WIS based casters dipping in Phantom for free AC ?
Mealir Ostirel - Incorrigible swashbuckler

User avatar
KOPOJIbPAKOB
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:24 am

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Sun May 20, 2018 11:04 am

Valefort wrote: @KOPOJIbPAKOB

You realize this won't hurt anyone except WIS based casters dipping in Phantom for free AC ?
They would dip into monk instead. I mean, what is the point?
(\/);,;(\/)

Known as:
Dasha
Gerfrex
Zul (Zulandi Ukwanda)
Alkor Deezelisk
Zee'Aerie


Please don't metagame my journals.

User avatar
Valefort
Lead Programmer
Posts: 8865
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:07 pm
Location: France, GMT +2

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Valefort » Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 am

Discouraging dips.
Mealir Ostirel - Incorrigible swashbuckler

Sun Wukong
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Sun May 20, 2018 12:05 pm

Valefort wrote:Discouraging dips.
We already have the '3 by 20' rule on this server. The issue of dips has been taken care of years ago.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.

Sun Wukong
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Sun May 20, 2018 12:33 pm

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:
Valefort wrote: @KOPOJIbPAKOB

You realize this won't hurt anyone except WIS based casters dipping in Phantom for free AC ?
They would dip into monk instead. I mean, what is the point?
You know, how about we take a look at the typical DC based cleric with 30-34 wisdom.

That dip would give them 10-12 points of wisdom based AC.

12 (Wisdom AC)
+ 5 (Magic Vestment)
= 17

That is a total of 17 AC.

Now, let us have a look at that cleric in full-plate, and heavy shield.

8 (Fullplate AC before dexterity modifier)
+ 5 (Magic Vestment)
+ 2 (Heavy Shield)
+ 5 (Magic Vestment cast on shield)
= 20 AC

In this case, AC-wise, going Phantom gives you less AC.

Alright, what about the Spirit Shaman/Druid then? They can reach 38-42 Wisdom with Owl's Insight.
16 (Wisdom based AC)
+ 4 (Armor enchantment)
= 20 AC

And were they to wear fullplate with a heavy shield:
8 (Fullplate AC before dexterity modifier)
+ 4 (Magic Vestment)
+ 2 (Heavy Shield)
+ 4 (Magic Vestment cast on shield)
= 18 AC

Thus in the case of a Druid/Spirit Shaman you could more AC, as long as you do not make that dip into Tower Shield Proficiency.

Additionally, those three or four levels of Phantom are likely to introduce multiclassing experience penalty if you are not playing on a human or a half-elf. Which in turn lowers the maximum wisdom you can reach...

So yeah, I do find this change silly.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.

Born2BeWild
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:10 am

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Born2BeWild » Sun May 20, 2018 2:34 pm

phantom ac works with shield

User avatar
mrm3ntalist
Posts: 7272
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: Skala Kallonis, Lesvos, Greece

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Sun May 20, 2018 3:16 pm

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:
Valefort wrote: @KOPOJIbPAKOB

You realize this won't hurt anyone except WIS based casters dipping in Phantom for free AC ?
They would dip into monk instead. I mean, what is the point?
The point is that we dont want to encourage this anymore. That is casters getting free level3 dips with huge benefits. It doesnt work the other way around. No melee character can dip into a spellcasting class and get such benefits.
Mendel - Villi of En Dharasha Everae | Nikos Berenicus - Initiate of the Mirari | Efialtes Rodius - Blood Magus | Olaf Garaeif - Dwarven Slayer

Spelling mistakes are purposely entered for your entertainment!

Sun Wukong
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 pm

Born2BeWild wrote:phantom ac works with shield
Then maybe it shouldn't? Especially since phantoms lack shield proficiency.
mrm3ntalist wrote:The point is that we dont want to encourage this anymore. That is casters getting free level3 dips with huge benefits. It doesnt work the other way around. No melee character can dip into a spellcasting class and get such benefits.
Warlock, you get Hideous Blow and extra 2d6 magic damage per round. Not to mention Disguise, Bluff, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device as your class skills. Then there is the one extra invocation that lasts for 24 hours or until it is dispelled, which could be +4 dexterity or free Blind-Fight. Then that Dragon Slayer PRC actually gives you additional invoker progression alongisde that full BAB progression.

Then I would like to point towards Karond's Dwarven Defender builds that took Cleric dips for the domain feats and general scroll reading ability. Oh, Spellcraft as class skill too.

Oh, and lets not forget about Bards who can get Inspire Courage and Inspirational boost Spell for +2 AB and damage. Then once again, you gain access to a big list of skills, and so on.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.

User avatar
mrm3ntalist
Posts: 7272
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: Skala Kallonis, Lesvos, Greece

Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Sun May 20, 2018 5:41 pm

Sun Wukong wrote:
mrm3ntalist wrote:The point is that we dont want to encourage this anymore. That is casters getting free level3 dips with huge benefits. It doesnt work the other way around. No melee character can dip into a spellcasting class and get such benefits.
Warlock, you get Hideous Blow and extra 2d6 magic damage per round. Not to mention Disguise, Bluff, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device as your class skills. Then there is the one extra invocation that lasts for 24 hours or until it is dispelled, which could be +4 dexterity or free Blind-Fight. Then that Dragon Slayer PRC actually gives you additional invoker progression alongisde that full BAB progression.

Then I would like to point towards Karond's Dwarven Defender builds that took Cleric dips for the domain feats and general scroll reading ability. Oh, Spellcraft as class skill too.

Oh, and lets not forget about Bards who can get Inspire Courage and Inspirational boost Spell for +2 AB and damage. Then once again, you gain access to a big list of skills, and so on.
I wont argue how useful they are, but yes you can.

By picking phantom you can open up new skills, get some AC and even get some SA dice, the same as the warlock you described above. You dont have to take all the powerful benefits though, the same way your CL will be crap with the Warlock dips.
Mendel - Villi of En Dharasha Everae | Nikos Berenicus - Initiate of the Mirari | Efialtes Rodius - Blood Magus | Olaf Garaeif - Dwarven Slayer

Spelling mistakes are purposely entered for your entertainment!

Post Reply