Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

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Sun Wukong
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Sun May 20, 2018 6:49 pm

As long as the phantom's wisdom AC does not work with a shield, the AC acquired is frankly what can be acquired with armor and shield by default. Shield wand can aid the phantom AC, but it costs gold and can be stripped away by any stray dispel or breach.

Not to mention that if phantom's wisdom AC is changed to Shield Enchantment, it will no longer stack with Shield Wand. Sure, it will not go away if you are cought flat-footed, but so what? Then you can just add check disables phantom's wisdom AC if monk AC feat is detected.

There are far better solutions to this non-existing 'dipping' issue.




And frankly, this change feels like something brought on by someone seeing my ROGUE 3/Cleric 7/Darkfire Disciple 10/Hierophant 10 in action... and getting upset over it.
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mrm3ntalist
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Sun May 20, 2018 7:23 pm

Sun Wukong wrote:And frankly, this change feels like something brought on by someone seeing my ROGUE 3/Cleric 7/Darkfire Disciple 10/Hierophant 10 in action... and getting upset over it.
Nope, its not that. Your build is better with rogue5 and high STR
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Sun May 20, 2018 10:19 pm

*Casts Implosion.*

And no, it is actually not. Melee means reliance on flanking to deliver the sneak attack damage. With Zen Archery and summons to tank, my character is free to unload barrage of sneak attacks with impunity and it doesn't really matter if a mob turns around. I can just switch targets... And so on, and so on...



Anyhow, back on the topic at hand. Let us compare the three level dip into monk and phantom.

Monk: Flurry of Blows, Wisdom to AC, Evasion, Increased Movement Speed, and Deflect Arrows.

Phantom: 2d6 Sneak Attack Dice, and Wisdom to AC.

It doesn't matter that Phantom has access to Disable Device because they get Trapfinding at Phantom level 8. Before that they cannot disarm a trap with higher DC than 20.


Monk is still clearly the superior choice as the source of wisdom AC. Will you be implementing similar limitations to monk? What about Fighter with their feats? And so on, and so on.


I think it would be sensible to just state the source of the emotional butthurt that has brought forth this phantom change? Because rationally speaking, it has no other logical explanation rather than emotional butthurt.
Last edited by Sun Wukong on Sun May 20, 2018 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mrm3ntalist
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Sun May 20, 2018 10:32 pm

Sun Wukong wrote:*Casts Implosion.*
Boom! :D

Most DC spells wont do much against bosses and deathward shuts down implosion easily. One way to go for DCs is Hiero + destruction domain + Harm (lvl5) + quickened. 600 damage in one round.

Back to the topic like you said. I wont comment on things like the alignment restrictions etc. Yes, monk is a better dip that phantom. We dont care much. We dont want to go about which dip is better, or make other classes as good for 3 lvl dips.

If we were to start the server from the beginning many things would be different. From FSs and druids, to feats such as hymn of requiem and EW to spells such as divine power. Its too late, in a way, to change all the above unless there is good reason.

Long story short, we dont care about 3lvl dips, we wont spend much time making all dipping equal. Most of the rework in base classes that we did, added benefits late in levels. With that said, phantom is a very weak class, that could use some rework. Not to make it a better dip, but give it more power in later levels.
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Snarfy » Sun May 20, 2018 11:04 pm

mrm3ntalist wrote:... that said, phantom is a very weak class, that could use some rework. Not to make it a better dip, but give it more power in later levels.
Understatement of the century :P I love playing sneaky classes, they are my #1 go to, hands down. Truthfully, I would almost rather play with a running upside-down lawn mower than ever try the Phantom class again. It's just that bad.

I honestly have a hard time believing that there are actually any players who would voluntarily gimp themselves by dipping in this class... to me that's like getting this tattoo:
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Nemni » Mon May 21, 2018 2:54 am

Since the wis AC does not apply while wildshaped, I don't see the point of this change. If any cleric/druid/whatever want to dip into phantom, then let them. It's not as if it would be that much better than just using basic armor, like Sun Wukong says. It's just different, which is good. If we actually wanted to discourage 3x dips than phantom is not the place to start anyway.

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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Mon May 21, 2018 11:32 am

mrm3ntalist wrote:Long story short, we dont care about 3lvl dips, we wont spend much time making all dipping equal. Most of the rework in base classes that we did, added benefits late in levels. With that said, phantom is a very weak class, that could use some rework. Not to make it a better dip, but give it more power in later levels.
Valefort wrote:Discouraging dips.
Then you add more power to Phantom at later levels.

You know, a feat like 'Extended Ki Power' could be an option. It would basically add another three rounds to the duration Phantom abilities, and you could get this feat several times just like you can with Extend Rage. This way the phantom abilities actually become useful without greatly changing the class itself. Ghost Step would still act as a quasi-hips ability, and Ki Dodge could actually provide some tankiness for the Pahntom. Currently, the three rounds of concealment just do not last long enough with the massive HP pools the mobs on the server has.

Additionally, like Barbarians, Phantom could get additional bonus feats at 10, 20, and 30.

Then considering that Phantom has medium BAB progression, it could actually get a phantom level based AB bonus with the weapons phantom is naturally proficient with. (Simple, Monk, and Rogue.) Perhaps something like +1 AB per every five levels of Phantom? Maximum of +6?



There is no reason to make the phantom dip less desirable for wisdom based casters.
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Mon May 21, 2018 3:15 pm

Sun Wukong wrote:Then considering that Phantom has medium BAB progression, it could actually get a phantom level based AB bonus with the weapons phantom is naturally proficient with. (Simple, Monk, and Rogue.) Perhaps something like +1 AB per every five levels of Phantom? Maximum of +6?
Actually, it could be just AB bonus that gets applied to any weapon, but it would cost a Ki Power use, and last default three rounds. (Longer with Extend Ki Power feats)

Thus, with all the possible uses for Ki Power, you would actually want as many levels of Phantom as possible.

Not to mention that if you can get 50% concealment adn +6 AB for the duration of the fight, I do not think phantom would be the weakest class anymore. It would be usabled regardless of whether you go for a strength, a dexterity, or a wisdom based build. IT would have something going on for itself other than being the nerfed down Rogue.


Currently, I really do not see a way to use phantom apart from a Phantom 25/Shadowdancer 5 or a Phantom 21/Assassin 9 build, and in both cases Rogue would be better.
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metaquad4
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by metaquad4 » Mon May 21, 2018 4:04 pm

If the goal is to discourage dips of the nature discussed (WIS-to-AC), the same should be applied to monk. Otherwise, the action is frankly a worthless nerf and a disingenuous one at that (claim to discourage dips, but allow one while preventing the other). I wouldn't advocate that action being taken, but that is the way to go about it.
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Mon May 21, 2018 5:10 pm

metaquad4 wrote:If the goal is to discourage dips of the nature discussed (WIS-to-AC), the same should be applied to monk. Otherwise, the action is frankly a worthless nerf and a disingenuous one at that (claim to discourage dips, but allow one while preventing the other). I wouldn't advocate that action being taken, but that is the way to go about it.
You realize that that this doesnt affect Phantom right? It affects cleric that dip into phantom. Two different things.

About the monk-phantom comparison, phantom is a new implemented class. We can implement it any way we like. In contrast, monk we found it and it is difficult to do radical changes for a class that has been here for many years. The same way we cant move rogue's evasion to 9 and discourage the very popular rogue3 dips for evasion.

Finally, Sun Wukong is right that currently, phantom is only viable as a Phantom25/SD5 or Phantom assassin, and both implementations are weaker when compared to similar style of builds. This is what we need to change and not give more powerful dips to an already powerful and popular class such as cleric.
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Grog » Mon May 21, 2018 6:34 pm

Where is it stated on the server that dips are to be discouraged? This sounds like a personal opinion not a community held one.
Nerfing classes is not fun and player fun should be the priority. That is in the mission statement.
For the record I don't have a cleric much less one with a phantom dip but it doesn't sound overpowered in the least as others have said, it sounds mechanically WORSE than other dips the cleric could take. If anything we should have more options not less.

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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Valefort » Mon May 21, 2018 7:12 pm

Druid 17 / Hiero 10/ Phantom 3, 42 WIS with ICE and tower shield proficiency :

AC : 10 (base) + 16 (WIS to AC) + 3 (Tumble) + 4 (dodge boots) + 4 (tower shield) + 4 (armor enchant) + 4 (shield enchant) +6 (ICE) + 9 (tortoise shell) +4 (DEX) + 4 (halo of sand) = 68 AC

Add Oaken resilience, premonition and regen spells; I think it'll tank for a bit, toss displacement and mirror image wands if you want to be funnier. This change is mainly to remove that possibility as far as I'm concerned.

Without Phantom you're looking at 8 (mithral full plate) + 3 (DEX) = 11instead of 16 (WIS)+ 4 (DEX) = 20
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mrm3ntalist
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Mon May 21, 2018 7:26 pm

To clear any statements like crogs about what is being "stated" on the server etc, no we are not on a mission to discourage dips nor nerf classes. Trust me, we get enough requests to nerf clerics, bards, FSs etc.

However, with new classes we have the freedom to implemented them from scratch. The phantom base class, was not designed to be a good dip for the cleric base class. Yes, the phantom class can use some rework but not to make it better for clerics or druids or SSs. The phantom base will be adjusted to be more efficient on its own.
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Mon May 21, 2018 7:47 pm

Valefort wrote:Druid 17 / Hiero 10/ Phantom 3, 42 WIS with ICE and tower shield proficiency :

AC : 10 (base) + 16 (WIS to AC) + 3 (Tumble) + 4 (dodge boots) + 4 (tower shield) + 4 (armor enchant) + 4 (shield enchant) +6 (ICE) + 9 (tortoise shell) +4 (DEX) + 4 (halo of sand) = 68 AC

Add Oaken resilience, premonition and regen spells; I think it'll tank for a bit, toss displacement and mirror image wands if you want to be funnier. This change is mainly to remove that possibility as far as I'm concerned.

Without Phantom you're looking at 8 (mithral full plate) + 3 (DEX) = 11instead of 16 (WIS)+ 4 (DEX) = 20
Isn't it easier to disable Phantom AC bonus while wielding shield?
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Re: Phantom Wisdom AC limited by phantom level is silly

Unread post by Grog » Mon May 21, 2018 9:06 pm

Valefort wrote:Druid 17 / Hiero 10/ Phantom 3, 42 WIS with ICE and tower shield proficiency :

AC : 10 (base) + 16 (WIS to AC) + 3 (Tumble) + 4 (dodge boots) + 4 (tower shield) + 4 (armor enchant) + 4 (shield enchant) +6 (ICE) + 9 (tortoise shell) +4 (DEX) + 4 (halo of sand) = 68 AC

Add Oaken resilience, premonition and regen spells; I think it'll tank for a bit, toss displacement and mirror image wands if you want to be funnier. This change is mainly to remove that possibility as far as I'm concerned.

Without Phantom you're looking at 8 (mithral full plate) + 3 (DEX) = 11instead of 16 (WIS)+ 4 (DEX) = 20
And a full druid is basically the same thing, 60AC being pretty easy for a pure druid to reach and I bet they'd have a lot more offensive power. And there are lots of other very tanky combinations of classes. So what is the point here? If you want to nerf the class so that its undesirable to dip (still don't see why this needs to be a priority) then at least make the class desirable to play PURE first. I would say that MOST classes people dip ARE base classes, rogue, bard, cleric, fighter, etc.
I understand the 'this is OUR class so we can design it however we want' argument but when someone questions it and the response is simply 'to prevent dips' with no context it rings hollow.
In my opinion every time a class is getting nerfed and effecting peoples characters there should be a post in an ongoing forum thread stating with good reason why. And maybe there is, some of the time but not in this case.
If the mission statement is "We don't discourage dips BUT -" then lets hear it.

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