Frenzy has double taxation

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blacksoft
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Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by blacksoft »

I understand that FB are popular and as a class and do not necessarily require a "buff".

However, people take FB for its supreme cleave and enhanced PA and rarely go past 5 levels and sparingly use frenzy. There should be better mechanics for using the Frenzy option and going past 5 levels of FB.

I have a FB, but am too scared to ever press the frenzy button. Between the -4 to AC and -6 hp per round, I am not sure that I will actually survive through the fight. I can understand one or the other, but having both is just crazy.

I do not see why BGTSCC cannot treat frenzy same way they handled regular rage from barbarian and remove the AC penalty completely from the get-go or: FB level 6, AC penalty -2 (instead of -4) and at level 8, AC penalty removed completely.

Also, FB should receive tireless rage at level 8 as well (or at lvl 9 or lvl 10).

Finally, since FB is still incurring -6 damage per round, perhaps receive epic toughness (or +2 natural con) at level 10 for increased HP. This way, going 10 levels nets you some extra damage via Supreme PA (that currently most FBs builds are not seeing a reason to go for) as well as some extra natural resilience via health. (I suggested the +2 con for those builds that want to aim for the fast healing feats and try to offset the -6 damage per round. Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see this as taking it too far.)

*disclaimer - I can understand the double taxation of -4 AC and -6 hp per round if Frenzy actually stacked with equipment, but it doesn't....

Thoughts?
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Blackman D
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by Blackman D »

barbarians and FB users tend to have 100s of hp... -6 per round per con mod +3, say +10 con for 72hp is really not that much to most

mine has 420hp with only a +2 con mod... if i actually used frenzy it would only last 5 rounds and only does 30hp of damage itself which is not that much out of 420hp to be afraid of using it
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KOPOJIbPAKOB
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

The least thing that has to be done is increasing frenzy duration by 5 rounds (to match barbarian rage server changes). -4 Ac penalty is brutal, I agree. The main reason to use frenzy is getting 3 attacks per first flurry instead of 2 with your two-handed weapon, I understand, but Barbarian's whirlwind frenzy does the same, except it ADDS armor instead of reducing it. Maybe some feat on late levels that reduces/removes AC penalty would be in order? As for self-damage, well, it should remain imho.
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PlayerDrivenRP
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by PlayerDrivenRP »

People need to think about what the server thinks about the power attack buff from this though. On this server the improved power attack feat is not even considered for other classes because it is too powerful. The only reason I fell they allow it for FB is that the rage cost is extreme if you want to use it. Also remember that the STR bonus from Rage stacks with all other forms of STR.

I really hate saying this but I think it is fine as is. Chances are if you want that -4 ac or -6 HP debuff to go bye bye bye they are going to nerf something else as well. Best to just leave it alone.
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by AgentOrange »

Go 30 barb like I'm doing. :violin:
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chad878262
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by chad878262 »

The reason Frenzy isn't more popular, like many other things on this server is because the vast majority of players build with UMD in mind. Deathless Frenzy and Inspire Frenzy would be WILDLY popular if every PC (or nearly so) wasn't constantly toting around the ability to apply Deathward as needed.

It's a case where Valefort might say something to the tune of "The answer to correcting an issue where PCs are overpowered because of X is not to make Class/PRC Y (or their abilities) stronger.... It's to address the thing that is making their already strong ability less used." In this case, make changes to UMD such as requiring a DC 30 check to use a wand so there is a chance even with 16 (cross-class) points invested there is a chance of failure and all the sudden Deathless and Inspire Frenzy sound like FANTASTIC abilities to buff yourself and your teammates with. Of course many will simply include 4 levels of Rogue in their build and allocate 30 points (instead of 11) in to UMD, but that is actually a fairly significant nerf because those points were previously going to Tumble/Spot/spellcraft/whatever. In any case, at least some builders will chose to forego UMD and either (a) group up with other players that can provide needed protection or (b) find Master Alchemists that can provide key potions. Either way it makes for more RP opportunities, but also 'hurts' those who have trouble with locating groups to RP and adventure with and also can't find crafters to make potions either due to timezones or whatever other barriers might exist.

End of the day it seems like the request here as well as in the weapon master thread are presented as 'fluff' improvements but are in actuality power creep. The only thing (IMO) that should be done to Frenzied berserker is to increase the duration of Frenzy in line with Barbarian (i.e. increase base duration by 5 rounds). Thus Frenzy for a FB w/ 14 CON would last 8 (base) + 2 (CON) = 10 rounds. At level 9 that is 50 rounds or 5 minutes per rest of Frenzy which is quite a bit more interesting than the current which would be 5 rounds, or 2 1/2 minutes per rest.
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blacksoft
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by blacksoft »

PlayerDrivenRP wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:28 am People need to think about what the server thinks about the power attack buff from this though. On this server the improved power attack feat is not even considered for other classes because it is too powerful. The only reason I fell they allow it for FB is that the rage cost is extreme if you want to use it. Also remember that the STR bonus from Rage stacks with all other forms of STR.

I really hate saying this but I think it is fine as is. Chances are if you want that -4 ac or -6 HP debuff to go bye bye bye they are going to nerf something else as well. Best to just leave it alone.
But we are talking about frenzy, not rage. And frenzy does not stack with strength buff from equipment. Not sure what you are saying about improved PA though.
blacksoft
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by blacksoft »

chad878262 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:23 pm The reason Frenzy isn't more popular, like many other things on this server is because the vast majority of players build with UMD in mind. Deathless Frenzy and Inspire Frenzy would be WILDLY popular if every PC (or nearly so) wasn't constantly toting around the ability to apply Deathward as needed.

It's a case where Valefort might say something to the tune of "The answer to correcting an issue where PCs are overpowered because of X is not to make Class/PRC Y (or their abilities) stronger....

End of the day it seems like the request here as well as in the weapon master thread are presented as 'fluff' improvements but are in actuality power creep. The only thing (IMO) that should be done to Frenzied berserker is to increase the duration of Frenzy in line with Barbarian (i.e. increase base duration by 5 rounds). Thus Frenzy for a FB w/ 14 CON would last 8 (base) + 2 (CON) = 10 rounds. At level 9 that is 50 rounds or 5 minutes per rest of Frenzy which is quite a bit more interesting than the current which would be 5 rounds, or 2 1/2 minutes per rest.
Chad, although I have great respect for you in your knowledge and as a builder, you have been around forever, I am going to have to disgaree with you that suggesting that the gradual removal of the AC penalty is a buff. It is enabling the use of the frenzy feature which includes deathless frenzy as you say. Why are you so convinced people without access to UMD will obtain FB for the frenzy? They will be incurring a -4 AC penalty which neutars most, if not all melee builds that rely on AC for survival. 6-10 levels of FB ((as I am suggesting is the requirement for the gradual removal of the AC penalty) should be a fine requirement for those that want to mitigate the frenzy penalty to AC. I do not think you are responding to the crux of the issue I am bringing up.

(I am completely fine keeping the -6 hp tick and have never said otherwise.)
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Ithilan
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by Ithilan »

The problem with your proposed changes is they don't take in to account this is a PRC not a base class. So what you are suggesting ends up being a power creep and buff to a great deal of builds that are absolutely fine in current iteration.
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electric mayhem
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by electric mayhem »

chad878262 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:23 pmOf course many will simply include 4 levels of Rogue in their build and allocate 30 points (instead of 11) in to UMD,
And suddenly every rogue dipped PC will be running around with Thieves Cant turned on doing gang signs to each other... Yo.
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As to the thread topic. Aye, I want frenzy to feel good, tried it in a few builds. Could never be bothered to fire it off though. Just didn't feel worth it.



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Ithilan
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by Ithilan »

Life on BG without UMD is painful as hell. Perhaps if we didnt design everything around it, people wouldnt dip in to classes to max it out.

More than half the gear in stores have alignment or class restrictions, for no obvious reasons.

Cursed items are so frequent its painful as hell to be a looter without high UMD, because we also refuse to let people remove these at temples with senior clergy members that can resurrect people from a hair on their buttocks.

People complaining about UMD dips really need to reflect on the design philosophy of the server. When you stop making it mandatory, I can get behind the pointed fingers at pointless UMD class dips. But we are so adamant about making life difficult for non casters or UMD users, that its a moot point to make entirely.
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chad878262
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by chad878262 »

blacksoft wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:07 pm I am going to have to disgaree with you that suggesting that the gradual removal of the AC penalty is a buff.
By definition the removal of a malus is a buff.
blacksoft wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:07 pm It is enabling the use of the frenzy feature which includes deathless frenzy as you say. Why are you so convinced people without access to UMD will obtain FB for the frenzy? They will be incurring a -4 AC penalty which neutars most, if not all melee builds that rely on AC for survival.
Because the Frenzy puts the Berserker under the effects of Deathward. If Deathward effects were not so easily replicated (wand use) then Frenzy would be a far more interesting ability. Even with the -4 AC penalty Frenzy would be quite popular if not every class could get it. Deathward is what allows non-casters to take on some epic bosses. Fighter types always have a way to increase AC significantly as needed simply by equipping a shield. +4 Tower Shield = instant +8 AC Buff, not to mention they could grab CE and ICE for additional AC if they want to, though that isn't really synergistic with Enhanced IPA the whole point of Fighters is to have multiple combat options...Ability to change from Tank to Damage Dealer at will. FB is essentially the 3e answer to the Berserker Fighter kit from Baldur's Gate 2 which had a similar frenzy ability and is one of the best solo kits in the game (look it up!) due to it's ability to become immune to just about all of the worst effects one can suffer. However, when you make immunities easy to replicate as with Deathward, it makes abilities such as Frenzy become 'useless'. It is not a function of the ability itself, but of what should be a somewhat rare ability becoming commonplace.
blacksoft wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:07 pm I do not think you are responding to the crux of the issue I am bringing up.
I apologize if I wasn't being clear, but I was responding to the issue of the thread, perhaps I failed to tie it all together and hopefully the above helps with that. Again, I would not be opposed to making things more even as far as giving Frenzy the rage treatment and extending the base duration. Heck if the issue is AC for you I would even say allow Ice Troll Berserker to have some synergy with Frenzy, which although there is no "Mighty" or "Epic" versions would still give +4 Natural AC while under Frenzy for those that don't have +4 Natural Armor Amulet.

Reducing the AC malus from 4 down to maybe 2 for 10 levels wouldn't be the worst buff in the world and isn't a huge deal, but that doesn't mean that FB10 needs it to be a viable build choice either.


Ithilan brings up great points, but unlikely to be changed due to the amount of heavy lifting involved. It is a bit of a chicken or the egg argument for me since I wasn't around for the first ~6 years of the server... Did the content get designed and then players felt they HAD to take UMD or did the original developers feel they need to design around UMD because everyone was taking it anyway? End of the day, in a perfect world UMD would not be so heavily required for utilization of cross class items and because folks feel wands are 'required' for survival. On top of this, in our perfect world UMD could not be cross classed and would require greater investment to use powerful wands... similar to scrolls which require full investment to cast level 9 spells. If wands with level 4 spells required higher investment than those with cantrips it would make it more likely that only those builds with heavy investment in classes that grant UMD would be using the most powerful UMD items.
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blacksoft
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by blacksoft »

Ithilan wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:54 am The problem with your proposed changes is they don't take in to account this is a PRC not a base class. So what you are suggesting ends up being a power creep and buff to a great deal of builds that are absolutely fine in current iteration.
Maybe I am wrong, but my understanding is that levels 6 - 10 FB were underused. What percentage of the current builds that have FB, have FB 10 as opposed to 5 and below?

The fact remains, frenzy is not usable under its current form of -4 AC for builds that rely on AC to survive. (And removing the AC penalty would not impact any other type of build in any meaningful way)
Last edited by blacksoft on Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:12 am, edited 5 times in total.
blacksoft
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Re: Frenzy has double taxation

Unread post by blacksoft »

chad878262 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:29 am
blacksoft wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:07 pm I am going to have to disgaree with you that suggesting that the gradual removal of the AC penalty is a buff.
By definition the removal of a malus is a buff.

Response:

I think I need to ask this more simply - Is frenzy an underused ability or not? Are folks actually activating this ability or not? And if not, why?

You appear to be arguing philosophically, my play experience is telling me that I will die from the -4 AC on my character. By activating this ability, I know I will be losing 100+ health depending on how many enemies I am facing. And do not forget that a FB wants to be surrounded by 2 or three enemies to fire off supreme cleaves..Otherwise whats the point?

In this case, my thought is that the removal of -4 AC is not a buff but rather enabling the frenzy ability to be actually useful. I am not asking for the removal upfront, but from those that invested in levels that people are not normally taking in FB...I still do not see the problem here.

I will also flip the conversation the other direction, if UMD is so prevalent and necessary, than why is it a problem to enable an alternative form of protection via frenzy?
blacksoft
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General Question

Unread post by blacksoft »

So enabling an inborn ability on a PRC class that people are not using since it has serious drawbacks is a buff? Why is this not perceived as fixing something that is currently not working under current meta?

One can still retain its drawbacks by keeping the -6 tick and slowly fading out the AC penalty.

So if I understand correctly, BGTSCC does not want underused abilities of PRC's to be utilized since they are a buff (i.e second iteration is objectively more beneficial than previous iteration even whereas the original iteration is unused due to its flawed nature). If so, I give up this argument and will no longer share my thoughts or game experience with the forum since any idea would be an improvement and therefore would be considered a buff.
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