Rogue Questions

Suggestions or Mechanical Requests for Classes, Feats, Races, Etc.

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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Hmmm... I forgot about expose weakness. Thinking of going with a race that will give me 18 starting dex, so won't need to burn too many feats for dex bonus. Might lose one of my sneak dice bonuses I was thinking of adding.

I swear I spend more time character planning than character playing.

Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Another question.

Arterial strike. Yes I know I've been advised against it as the bleed is useless against dr but I wanted to try it out for fun anyway.

I thought it would be in testing to use with HiPS while fighting groups. You could move from mob to mob staking bleeds...

But it seems like either the bleeds only last two rounds or they stop when you leave combat. Is that working as intended?

The description says bleed until healed.

I just have the feat on an alt I'm messing around with but so far even without running into dr it's pretty much useless.

chad878262
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 »

When I tested it the bleed did not dissipate and would continue when leaving combat, but that might have been in the 2nd/testing module that was open prior to the March, 2016 update when Arterial Strike was introduced. Definitely not intended for it to stop upon exiting combat mode (and not sure how that would even work) or when applying to another mob. However, would need a dev or someone with current QC rights to test live and understand the functionality for sure.
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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Maybe it only ticks to the number of sneak attack dice you have? Whatever it was definitely seemed short to the point of worthless.

Or maybe I missed something. I’ll test it again next time I have a sub level 10 rouge to mess around with.

chad878262
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 »

honestly what might actually make this a worthwhile feat is to make it so you can chose to forego *ALL* sneak dice in order to inflict a wound that does 2 bleed damage per sneak dice given up, so for a 16d6 sneak dice character, instead of doing (16d6x4) = ~224 damage you would do ~128 damage. However, the next round your bleed damage loses 2 points per bleed, so instead of 128 in round 2 you do 120, then 112, etc. on down to zero... Or some other thing like that. Point is you forego doing maximum damage in round 1 in order to have the enemy bleed out (unless any healing received.) This would make the idea of it being pointless go away since you could increase the bleed damage to ~32 per sneak attack instead of only 2.
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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Wow, that’s actually a great idea.

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Another question, just out of curiosity, is there any good reason outside of RP to go full ten levels of shadow dancer?

It’s not the build I settled on, but since I spent a lot of time playing with builds I looked at it and can’t really figure it out.

The ‘free’ rouge feats, especially the ones that help qualify for epic dodge are nice, but at the cost of so many SA dice?

Shadow daze is not as useful as blinding strike and it’s only once a day where as the latter is a 45 second timer and is easier to get a higher DC.

Even the beefed up summon shadow doesn’t seem very useful, quickly falls off in epic levels, and again is only once a day.

That leaves shadow evade. This is a nice defensive ability but can only be used 3 times a day. It seems like a pretty rough trade off for the loss of sneak attack damage.

Don’t get me wrong, it seems like a cool idea for a class, and I was looking for a way to play one, but looking at the mechanics, it seems kind of lack luster. Especially by the end game. Am I missing something?

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Agog_Fr
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Agog_Fr »

You have right.

Shadow dancer is weak prestige class. Most people only take it for Hide in Plein Sight.
Nearly no one really play them for their RP.

I think Hips should be available later, like level 6. To avoid all those powerbuilds which includes hips at level 3, without RP consideration.

And the class should be stronger in late levels, to be as strong as assassin (in his own RP field).


I played on a french server where the DM gave powerfull RP abilities in events, only to shadow dancer. They could REALLY use hips during event, being like super hero assassin, or super hero infiltrator. The assassins had not these RP capacities.
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chad878262
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 »

Yes and no...

For me personally I would never go Shadow Dancer to 10, but the reasons are a bit more complex... The issue is that it's a very defensive class and the defensive feats you get are very powerful (you forgot about Shadow Jump, by the way!) However, if you are going for a sneak attack based character you give up FAR too many sneak dice. If you are a HiPS caster you can't afford to lose the caster levels. If you are a HiPS Weapon Master you don't want to give up 2 more BAB, bonus fighter feats or other PRC abilities for those levels. So any build for an archetype that would use HiPS generally has to give up something VERY important to take SD to 10.

However, for many players Shadow Dancer 10 is still worth it. Afterall, in PvE, DM events AND PvP defense will in general win the day more than offense. For those who prescribe to perma death or even realistic rules for their PC's survival they do not want to die even if they 'lose' so having abilities they can activate in order to escape is more important than being able to land enough sneak damage to 'one shot' for example.

There is no right or wrong answers in character building (well, there are, but not as many as most think). What it boils down to is what is important to you and your character concept. So long as you understand what you are getting and what you are giving up in advance you will generally be happy with the end result.
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Blackman D
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Blackman D »

SD is not a weak class, it is actually fairly strong but you cant go 10 SD and expect something out of it that you are not going to get

i have 3 level 30 sneaks, one is an old school AA assassin, another is a 21/9 rogue assassin with like 21d6 SA, and the other is my 10 SD, rogue/IB

if you want an offensive build then either dont go SD or just dip for hips because 10 levels of no SA hurts your damage output severely, mine averages about 20 dmg per sneak but has PTWF and gets 4 from stealth so thats still 80 dmg opening followed by 72 dmg in bleed

its decent damage but she of course has epic dodge so its not so much a matter of me killing someone as much as it is them hitting me to begin with, if i wanted to use all of her UMD items she will literally go untouched by most people till i ran out of buffs because when they finally do hit her all they see is epic dodge; granted it takes forever to kill something unless they are blind and i can feint them to death so its not as if she goes picking fights or anything

if you dont want a defensive build and dont want to take a long time killing high hp high bab mobs, dont go 10 SD; its not a bad class but dont expect it to be easy either, mine was by far my worse toon i leveled to 30 with, but she is one of my most fun ones to play... when people actually see her :P
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metaquad4
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by metaquad4 »

Agog_Fr wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:07 am
You have right.

Shadow dancer is weak prestige class. Most people only take it for Hide in Plein Sight.
Nearly no one really play them for their RP.

I think Hips should be available later, like level 6. To avoid all those powerbuilds which includes hips at level 3, without RP consideration.

And the class should be stronger in late levels, to be as strong as assassin (in his own RP field).


I played on a french server where the DM gave powerfull RP abilities in events, only to shadow dancer. They could REALLY use hips during event, being like super hero assassin, or super hero infiltrator. The assassins had not these RP capacities.
Yeah, another server I played on (Dalelands) did something similar. Unless you had 5(iirc) levels of Shadowdancer, if you used HiPs you couldn't RP it as being HiPs (events were really the only place that could be enforced, though it was an over-all rule). You were limited to HiPing where there was line of sight if you didn't have 5 levels of shadowdancer. So assassins and anyone with under 5 levels of shadowdancer were stuck with RPing HiPs as regular hide.
(PvP and PvE mechanical combat was an exception, as they did recognize that playing a sneaker without HiPs would be an insane proposal in nwn2)

They also had a script at one point (I think it was DB that did this) where if you spoke in HiPs without using emote icons, then HiPs would break.

Though, they did some other things to soup up Shadowdancer. At some later level, shadowdancers could 1/day create a shadow clone of a target (similar to shadow sim) is the main one as I recall. They also had Kaedrins feats, such as one that gave shadowdancer 1/2 sneak dice progression and another which gave shadowdancer 5/10 bard spellcasting and song progression.
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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

That’s interesting. Maybe if at level 10 your summon shadow became a shadow similacrum of yourself, complete with its own SA damage then it would remain somewhat relevant in epic levels and help make up for the lost damage... I don’t know. Maybe I’m way off. Just wish there was a decent mechanical reason to take this prc to 10.

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Blackman D
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Blackman D »

you basically get epic dodge for free.... and its one of the strongest feats in the game

thats a pretty good mechanical reason :?
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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Except you can be 27 rouge/3 SD and easily have the extra feats for epic dodge plus all of your skills and much higher sneak dice.

I did mention earlier that the free defensive feats are a nice bonus, but you are giving up a rogue's bonus feat slots so on the balance that part is a wash.

The problem is what you get for everything else you give up. It's... Underwhelming.

chad878262
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 »

Tanlaus wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:54 am
Except you can be 27 rouge/3 SD and easily have the extra feats for epic dodge plus all of your skills and much higher sneak dice.

I did mention earlier that the free defensive feats are a nice bonus, but you are giving up a rogue's bonus feat slots so on the balance that part is a wash.

The problem is what you get for everything else you give up. It's... Underwhelming.
This is actually not an accurate comparison... Consider that R20/SD10 would lose 4d6 sneak dice, but still has 3 epic feats (R13, R16, R19) of which in your R27/SD3 example 2 of them would be used for Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll. So you are plus 2 epic feats, which if used on Improved Sneak Attack means you are only -2d6 sneak dice and of course skill points (but you still have plenty). In return you have 3 times per day getting 1 minute of 20% concealment, +4 dodge AC, and 10 /- Adamantine DR, you have a decent summon, yes it's not uber, but you have full UMD so can protect it fairly well and use it so that you can land additional sneak attacks without HiPS. You have a very good DC on Shadow Daze which, while only once per day has a DC of about ~30 and can be used with Blinding Strike for when you get in the weeds with multiple enemies. You have slippery mind which, if you utilize UMD can be quite beneficial with decent Will saves. Finally you have Shadow Jump, which is certainly the coolest looking of the dimension door type abilities, but also with cooldown can be utilized fairly often both offensively and defensively.

Now, again, my point is not to say this is by any means the 'top' or even close to top Rogue build. Certainly any Rogue build benefits from adding 3 levels of Bodyguard and/or many other classes or PRCs. It is simply to point out that as BMD stated it is more than capable of holding it's own, should you be interested in the RP of SD10. It's by no means a 'power-builder' choice, but it certainly has enough 'oomph' to be a worthwhile option if you so chose... Now, I would argue if you are going for Improved Sneak Dice anyway R17/NWN3/SD10 is a better option, since you lose R19 feat, but end up with the same number of sneak dice (if R19 was going to be Improved Sneak Dice) while gaining a movement boost (very useful for rogues). Anyway the defensive abilities of SD are more than a nice bonus...They are the basis upon which the class derives it's power and in some cases can absolutely be utilized in an offensive manner with smart play. Hopefully this helps you see that you are giving up a bit less than it may first seem and what you get can more than make up for the loss if built and leveled appropriately.
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