Crusader (again)

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RedLancer
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Crusader (again)

Unread post by RedLancer »

Back again to suggest improvements to the Crusader class kit. In the conversations prior, it comes around that the big draw of the kit is being able to have the strength of your class available to you at any time, independent of a rest timer. This is part of the reasoning used to justify the kit's recognized mechanical inferiority to its other Paladin kit brethren.

In keeping with the theme of the Crusader having its abilities on call, I propose that the class kit receive over the course of its leveling:

Extra Smiting
Extra Turning I
Extra Turning II
Extra Turning III

These feats aren't so much raw power increases as they are giving the Crusader more time at their lower ceiling of power, which plays well with the identity of the kit. Awarding these feats as part of the kit progression would also allow for more build diversity, as feats that might have gone toward their selection can go toward something else.

My apologies to the horse.
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Valefort
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Valefort »

Why not, where would you put those ?
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Steve
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Steve »

Subject: Build Discussion: 30 Crusader vs. 16 Crusader/4 Figther/10 DC
Steve wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 4:32 pm We have been begging for both better Holy Weapon scaling AND a reduction of Crusader to Level 20—like all the other Paladin Kits!!!!—for like a really long time.

viewtopic.php?f=443&t=67908&start=105

But what we’ve had to accept is that no changes happen on BGTSCC unless a Dev takes it upon themselves to do so (said volunteerism that fuels BGTSCC). Ao only knows of maybe Valefort will take pity on us and jump back into scripting and give us such a gift! Hi Valefort!!
Double Hi!!!

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
yyj

Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by yyj »

These buffs will greatly help crusader quite a lot I think and will bring them up to power to Divinate and Cavalier, which is a good thing.

As someone that has played and tested all the paladin kits I can say that the best way would be giving these feats at levels:
4, 7, 12 and 17. (Giving two feats at 17 I would say Great Smiting and last extra turning).

The only worrying thing is that this will make Fighters appear to be a cheap Crusader with the amount of free feats they get, but I guess QC and other members of staff will evaluate class balance.
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Theodore01
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Theodore01 »

Really 16 extra EDM uses? - What a Christmas gift :drool:


That makes me wonder - what will all the other kits get ???
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Bobthehero
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Bobthehero »

Blackguard kits first! Blackguard kits first!
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by chad878262 »

Valefort wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:27 pm Why not, where would you put those ?
Who are you and what did you do to valefort?
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Tanlaus
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Tanlaus »

chad878262 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:38 pm
Valefort wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:27 pm Why not, where would you put those ?
Who are you and what did you do to valefort?
:lol:
RedLancer
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by RedLancer »

Valefort wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:27 pm Why not, where would you put those ?
8: Extra Turning I

15: Extra Smiting

18: Extra Turning II

25 or 28: Extra Turning III
yyj

Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by yyj »

Are these changes down the pipeline or coming soon?
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Winterborne
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Winterborne »

I'm resurrecting this thread. Having played a crusader, and having spoken to others playing one, there are two issues:

1) The benefits of going 30 crusader are not presently enough to justify giving up both spellcasting and the ability to multiclass into other things to gain damage or survivability.

2) At low levels it is very lacking in damage.

I like Destin's suggestions of extra turning, extra smiting.

I would like to suggest some other things that I believe are fitting with Crusader being a 2h focused paladin and would help with their damage output overall.

- Lv. 5, 10, 15, 20, 25: Favored Enemy Choice
- Lv. 11: Favored Power Attack
- Lv. 19: Supreme Power Attack
- Lv. 5, 16, 25: Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization. (all would be in the Weapon of Choice)

I believe this would introduce a few breakpoints where you could choose to multiclass the kit some with other martial classes, or have it be equally viable to remain pure. This would increase build diversity and viability of the kit.
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Valefort
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Valefort »

How can a STR two-hander with PA be lacking any kind of damage ? :? Definitely no to the favored, power attack and weapon spec suggestions.

Other than that there are already several breakpoints for Crusader kit, going for permanent holy sword is by no mean the only viable path.

As for Destin's initial suggestion it was done before the PA addition to the kit.
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Steve
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Steve »

Valefort wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:16 am
Other than that there are already several breakpoints for Crusader kit, going for permanent holy sword is by no mean the only viable path.
I for one would like to see some of these examples!

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
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Valefort
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Valefort »

https://nwn2db.com/build/?280161
https://nwn2db.com/build/?295385
https://nwn2db.com/build/?323053

You can also go with Paladin 18/WM 5/ fighter 4 / AK 3, Dragon Warrior is another worthy option.

Paladin 14/ fighter 12 / AK 4 is also obviously fine with a profusion of feats.

And ofc the FS with Paladin dip who ought to pick the crusader kit for a free weapon focus.

Is any of the options above not viable ? You can find those inferior to Crusader 30 and I would argue that it's most definitely a matter of taste if you're that blinded by the permanent Holy Sword reward at the end.
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Winterborne
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Re: Crusader (again)

Unread post by Winterborne »

The problem is more that paladin is the weak link in each of those builds. You could replace it with fighter (and if it contains fighter, replace Fighter with something else like perhaps Dervish) and end up with a notable boost in effectiveness. Crusader is far too low dmg compared to other similar builds and this is simply because it gives up so much to get what it gets (whether in terms of spells, or in terms of levels that could be taken as another class), and what it gets is not equivalent to what it gives up.

If Crusader is meant to be a 2h using martial version of a paladin, and you are better served dipping 3-5 levels in paladin and then building a martial that's actually effective, then IMO that is a problem.

What is Crusader bringing to the table mechanically in any of these builds that make it a better option than not bringing it? There should be a reason you go "Hm, Crusader is the best choice here!" at some point, and not "Crusader is what I feel like playing so I guess however it is needs to be good enough."
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