Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

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EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm Speaking of such builds (and sorry for big bunch of offtopic, it wasn't very related to original topic), any build that has 29 CL due to practiced spellcaster, will be able to free up one feat. To me, doesn't sound too spooky, honestly.
I can’t understand how you come up with these things… not one person will do what you are saying about PSC for many reasons the most important being that there is one thing call mordekaines disjunction. On top of that there is spell penetration and duration. PSC is the most important feat for any multi class Spell caster

I still can’t believe that I his is one of your reasonings….

M3ntalist
Last edited by fuego on Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

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EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm Speaking of such builds (and sorry for big bunch of offtopic, it wasn't very related to original topic), any build that has 29 CL due to practiced spellcaster, will be able to free up one feat. To me, doesn't sound too spooky, honestly.
As of CL 20 builds (cl 16 + practiced spellcaster), they will get 25% dispel chance per ward vs 50% dispel chance, which is quite strong. That simply means they could free up some of their spellslots for more defensive/offensive wards.

In terms of still having practiced spellcaster, it effectively mean someone can take 4 less spellcasting levels in return of +4 high BAB non-spellcasting levels. For arcane casters, it mostly mean +2 BaB with possibility to hit 21 BaB (or 27 BaB with just 6 wizard levels and other high bab). It's +1 APR, or more AC or any other utility they can invest to or get with being allowed to have further dip into martial class. It's really hard to just go and build several of those just on purpose, at least, for me.
OK, so we're not actually concerned about any powerbuilds suddenly made possible or having their powers vastly improved?

Would it not then just be reasonable to allow the less-skilled players, and others, to have some more options of variety in their sub-30 CL builds? If this isn't going to significantly change the balance of any of the already powerful builds, doesn't this change simply amount to allowing flavour?
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

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EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm In terms of still having practiced spellcaster, it effectively mean someone can take 4 less spellcasting levels in return of +4 high BAB non-spellcasting levels. For arcane casters, it mostly mean +2 BaB with possibility to hit 21 BaB (or 27 BaB with just 6 wizard levels and other high bab). It's +1 APR, or more AC or any other utility they can invest to or get with being allowed to have further dip into martial class. It's really hard to just go and build several of those just on purpose, at least, for me.
And the problem with this is what exactly? Are gishes too strong? You say this after the posts you made in the warlock thread? I am trying really hard to not criticize all this

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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

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Deathgrowl wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:09 pm OK, so we're not actually concerned about any powerbuilds suddenly made possible or having their powers vastly improved?

Would it not then just be reasonable to allow the less-skilled players, and others, to have some more options of variety in their sub-30 CL builds? If this isn't going to significantly change the balance of any of the already powerful builds, doesn't this change simply amount to allowing flavour?
LOL. I see what you did there! Nice one! :clap:

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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

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Hoihe wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:00 pm
Tanlaus wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:50 pm
Hoihe wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:38 pm

This is completely negated by

Case A:

You encounter the enemy. You HiPS dodge their greater dispel, and while it's on cd, they hit you with Iron Horn and dispel you on the floor.

Case B:

You are fighting a melee mob when inexplicably a caster mob spawns within aggro range, and as the flurry of red text fills your combat log, you miss the single purple line indicating you need to HiPS dodge.

Case C:

You HiPS dodge a mob. While on CD, they re-cast the dispel and dispel you anyway.

Case D:

2 caster mobs at once. You dodge 1, get dispelled by the other.

Case E:

Combat log is full of spam, but you use vfx to tell when to dodge. But! enemy has multiple spells with dispel vfx, or maybe used a save or die spell. So you dodge based on the wrong vfx and get dispelled afterwards.




And making an enemy fail their concentration by attacking them is unreliable at best. I played a melee gish for 8 years with 0 concentration (2 years I played a rogue/SD/Divine seeker). Getting hit while casting a spell rarely if ever triggers the concentration check.
I have a few points in response here.

1) Yes HiPS dodge does not work all the time. Things happen, that's part of the fun of the game.

2) When I play a HiPSter 99% of the time I scout a room before attacking anyone in it. That's part of the stealth game. So if you see multiple casters find a way to bypass them, shut one down before you attack the other, or draw one with a ranged weapon. For all the talk of AI gaming the system, it's still really stupid and easy to provoke a single target with a bow while the others don't know you're there.

3) In the case of someone spawning on you, yes happens to me too. See point 1.

Multiple caster mobs are- outside of high spot bosses- the hardest thing to deal with for sneaks, whether they are gishes or not. As most sneaks have pretty terrible will and fort saves and either need to avoid being cast on or have wards up, which are easily dispelled. But they can be dealt with very successfully with a little strategic gameplay. And that I think it what is often missing.

The assumption is, "if I get dispelled so often I can't just charge into a room and win." When it should be, "if I charge into this room I will get dispelled so how do I play it to stack the odds in my favor to win?"


1) - Problem, you get dispelled. Time to wait 20 minutes until you can play again.

2) Enemies spawn on top of you in a number of areas (much to my annoyance).

3) Don't see much fun in "Go and sit down for 20 minutes for failing to dodge 1 mob out of the 30-50 it takes to get to the boss." (depending on map. VoTD is on the high end)


Also
Ravial wrote:I'm sorry, but that's how your message comes off to me. There are FEW players that refuse to 100% powerbuild, for one reason or another, and the vast majority that does absolutely insane powerbuilds only to be able to actually play the content without playing a real-time strategy in an RP game. In a game that encourages and forces people to powerbuild in order to get experience points ((let's be honest, we don't have that many players on this server anymore to reliably find parties for all RP-alignments and philosophies that work together anymore)) what more harm will cause opening more character concepts and playstyles by lowering the CL back to its Vanilla values? Almost everyone powerbuilds. Nothing will change.
You completely ignored the whole “scout ahead in stealth- since you have it- plan your fights accordingly.

Also as far as the wait 20 minutes, well iirc you said your build has a very low caster level. So yes if you get dispelled you don’t have a lot of backup buffs. But presumably you are also fairly capable without being fully buffed. And this ignores HiPS. You can hit and run if your back is against the wall. Or carry consumables for that odd time a caster spawns right on top of you. It happens but it doesn’t happen that often.

I mean, what is your expectation? And I’m not being snarky or sarcastic. Do you feel like you should be able to ward up and not worry about dispels?

Do you feel like you should be able to hit mid 20 DCs, ward up and not have to worry about dispels?

Is it not reasonable to use silence wands or ranged weapons in casters?

What is sweet spot between unplayable and trivial?
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Ravial wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:05 pm
EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm As of CL 20 builds (cl 16 + practiced spellcaster), they will get 25% dispel chance per ward vs 50% dispel chance, which is quite strong.
Against what CL opponent? Because that information is lacking. And CL 25 against CL 29 already has 20% chance of resisting a dispel chance, mathematically speaking. 20 vs 29 or even 30 CL is just not comparable.
The common situation we have on server is getting g. dispel spam, thus, i compare it allowing for up to 20 cl and up to 15 CL adjustment.
Thus, cl 29 has 5% chance to be dispelled by greater dispel cast by cl >= 20 caster. If it is reduced to +15 on spell, it means that CL29 gishes can drop practiced spellcaster or 4 spellcasting levels without risk to be g. dispelled.
As i said, going 4 less spellcasting means one can drop 4 lowish BAB spellcasting levels in favor of getting deeper dip into their martial class for extra bab/feats.

fuego wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:08 pm
EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm Speaking of such builds (and sorry for big bunch of offtopic, it wasn't very related to original topic), any build that has 29 CL due to practiced spellcaster, will be able to free up one feat. To me, doesn't sound too spooky, honestly.
I can’t understand how you come up with these things… not one person will do what you are saying about PSC for many reasons the most important being that there is one thing call mordekaines disjunction. On top of that there is spell penetration and duration. PSC is the most important feat for any multi class Spell caster

I still can’t believe that I his is one of your reasonings….

M3ntalist


There surely is mordenkeinen disjunction. Which we face very rarely, let us be honest. Most bosses have it and maybe few spellcasting regular mobs. Everything else is about greater dispel magic that is overused in many places. Also, spell penetration does nothing in terms of dispel success or resistance against dispels in first place. Making emotional statements about my logic or results of me trying to add up to the discussion so we find a compromise doesn't anyhow benefit any of us here, M3ntalist. Please stop throwing emotions, because it won't help to convince anyone, but only make it harder to communicate.

I see two ways to make things less hurting (except for original suggestion) while not suddenly powering up gishes a ton or producing other changes we can't predict yet.
1) Reducing the amount of mobs that have g. dispels handily available. As i said like 2 times already, i feel like making them to have it 1/5 times from current situation will still make it dangerous, but having 1-2 dispel attempts per zone encourages counterspelling while having 20+ makes it useless.
2) Introducing the line of feats that specifically increase caster's CL only against dispel attempts. Then, people would be able to choose their way to have cl 20 caster who is cl 28 caster in terms of resisting dispels at cost of feats.

Deathgrowl wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:09 pm
EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm Speaking of such builds (and sorry for big bunch of offtopic, it wasn't very related to original topic), any build that has 29 CL due to practiced spellcaster, will be able to free up one feat. To me, doesn't sound too spooky, honestly.
As of CL 20 builds (cl 16 + practiced spellcaster), they will get 25% dispel chance per ward vs 50% dispel chance, which is quite strong. That simply means they could free up some of their spellslots for more defensive/offensive wards.

In terms of still having practiced spellcaster, it effectively mean someone can take 4 less spellcasting levels in return of +4 high BAB non-spellcasting levels. For arcane casters, it mostly mean +2 BaB with possibility to hit 21 BaB (or 27 BaB with just 6 wizard levels and other high bab). It's +1 APR, or more AC or any other utility they can invest to or get with being allowed to have further dip into martial class. It's really hard to just go and build several of those just on purpose, at least, for me.
OK, so we're not actually concerned about any powerbuilds suddenly made possible or having their powers vastly improved?

Would it not then just be reasonable to allow the less-skilled players, and others, to have some more options of variety in their sub-30 CL builds? If this isn't going to significantly change the balance of any of the already powerful builds, doesn't this change simply amount to allowing flavour?
As i mentioned, i'm not a build guru. In fact, i never played many of PC archetypes aside from quick QC toons, thus that's what i see just from the top of my head. I believe, more skilled people can see exact things that freeing up 5 levels of spellcaster into martial class can benefit a lot.
Speaking of skill, countering dispels is not skill-dependant in most cases, but just requires one to step aside from hack'n'slash diablo style and think their actions like any adventurer going into dangerous place would actually do.
Please keep in mind i myself represent a single person - myself. Other QC staff, Dev staff and Admins can have very different opinion on this and i myself am not authority person who can decide for balance ignoring other staff opinion. In fact, QC stuff don't have authority to force or push decisions at all. We are testers and Dev advisors who do our best to provide the most detailed and discussed options. I myself find it's a part of my duty to discuss things, raise my concerns and doubts so players can help us with their bright ideas and thorough analysis of things we didn't take into account.
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

fuego wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:13 pm
EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm In terms of still having practiced spellcaster, it effectively mean someone can take 4 less spellcasting levels in return of +4 high BAB non-spellcasting levels. For arcane casters, it mostly mean +2 BaB with possibility to hit 21 BaB (or 27 BaB with just 6 wizard levels and other high bab). It's +1 APR, or more AC or any other utility they can invest to or get with being allowed to have further dip into martial class. It's really hard to just go and build several of those just on purpose, at least, for me.
And the problem with this is what exactly? Are gishes too strong? You say this after the posts you made in the warlock thread? I am trying really hard to not criticize all this

M3ntalist
As of warlock thread, please keep it in there. I won't discuss things that are totally not related to dispel focused topic that was originally risen.
I felt like describing the ways i myself counter dispels is useful information in terms of discussing if we should lower greater dispel CL limit as it shows currently existing options i myself know and use to address the very first reason this topic is created: being non immune to greater dispells and still avoiding being dispelled.
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:39 pmThere surely is mordenkeinen disjunction. Which we face very rarely, let us be honest. Most bosses have it and maybe few spellcasting regular mobs. Everything else is about greater dispel magic that is overused in many places. Also, spell penetration does nothing in terms of dispel success or resistance against dispels in first place.

You made the claim that one wont take PSC to save one feat. All the examples i gave is why that is not the case and some go beyond the matter of dispelling. Not one in his right mind will skip PSC. They will skip everything else before that feat. For those reasons, even the ones not affecting dispelling your point is wrong
Making emotional statements about my logic or results of me trying to add up to the discussion so we find a compromise doesn't anyhow benefit any of us here, M3ntalist. Please stop throwing emotions, because it won't help to convince anyone, but only make it harder to communicate.
I have no idea what you are talking about.... :violin:
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

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mrm3ntalist wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:56 pm
EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:39 pmThere surely is mordenkeinen disjunction. Which we face very rarely, let us be honest. Most bosses have it and maybe few spellcasting regular mobs. Everything else is about greater dispel magic that is overused in many places. Also, spell penetration does nothing in terms of dispel success or resistance against dispels in first place.

You made the claim that one wont take PSC to save one feat. All the examples i gave is why that is not the case and some go beyond the matter of dispelling. Not one in his right mind will skip PSC. They will skip everything else before that feat. For those reasons, even the ones not affecting dispelling your point is wrong
Making emotional statements about my logic or results of me trying to add up to the discussion so we find a compromise doesn't anyhow benefit any of us here, M3ntalist. Please stop throwing emotions, because it won't help to convince anyone, but only make it harder to communicate.
I have no idea what you are talking about.... :violin:
My point was, and i repeat it in case i worded it in ambiguous way:
1) Reducing CL limit on greater dispel by 5 effectively lets current CL 29 build to drop practiced spellcaster and still being in safe margin for being immune to g. dispels completely. Thus, 1 free feat.
2) For CL 20 gishes, like one i play, it reduces the risk to lose each out of 6 attempted wards by 25%, because, currently, because greater dispel is 1d20 + 20 vs mine flat 31DC, 50% dispel chance for any mob with at least 20 CL.
3) For new and existing builds, it makes it possible to adjust builds from point 1 to drop 4 spellcaster levels, leaving practiced spellcaster in, thus making them more stronger in their martial part of gish and still staying immune to g. dispels and just building something new already accounting this change.

As of emotional statements:
1) You keep claiming my ideas wrong without constructive well explained argumentation.
2) You keep using provocative manner of speech.
3) You speak for majority basing on your own opinion assuming no one will do something without providing any grounded explanation or finished poll.
4) You drag totally unrelated topics i participate in forums, to this topic, where it serves no purpose to help on this particular one.
That's what i consider being emotional statements that don't help discussion and serve no useful purpose, and that's what i ask you to, please, stop doing.

To me, there is no right or wrong side in this conversation since there are many ways to create balance aside from what we discussed here. So, it's just arguments, opinions and suggestions we discuss. If we succeed in finding compromise that would allow people to suffer from dispels less while making as few changes as possible, it's something we can give as a solid proposition to server decision makers to consider. If we don't, most likely, decision makers will have to find this compromise themself. I myself participate in these discussions because i believe, together with players, we can help a lot in making good decisions.
So, i am here and i try to point at weak points of suggestions, i participate and give my own ideas in hope we can find balance.
Please, stop being emotional and look at both sides. People with opposite opinion are not your enemies, after all. We totally can agree to disagree.
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

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EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:18 pm10 Reducing CL limit on greater dispel by 5 effectively lets current CL 29 build to drop practiced spellcaster and still being in safe margin for being immune to g. dispels completely. Thus, 1 free feat.
That is the point I am arguing. If that is something that you are worried, that casters will skip PSC and drop lets say from CL29 to 25, then dont worry. They will not do it. Even if the do they will end up with a weaker build. So, by lowering the CL limit, they will not gain a bonus feat. If you dont believe me, or you think i am being emotional, get another opinion.
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

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EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm
Deathgrowl wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:37 pm Since none of you responded so far to my question, but have indeed responded to the thread and pointed out all the ways your powerbuilds (and high skill play - something you can't expect in even most players, including myself) work even at low CL, I will repeat my question:
Deathgrowl wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:34 amSince there are people here saying that 25-29 CL is fine already, and having success playing builds with those CLs, what kind of builds would actually become a problem if the Greater Dispel cap was returned to Vanilla NWN2 numbers?

As of CL 20 builds (cl 16 + practiced spellcaster), they will get 25% dispel chance per ward vs 50% dispel chance, which is quite strong. That simply means they could free up some of their spellslots for more defensive/offensive wards.
That's...

Exactly why we want it?

To have a gish that actually plays like a spellblade rather than a fighter with free UMD.

A spell blade should be using their spells to actively affect the battlefield - cursing, debuffing, disabling, dislocating, luring (with illusions like Mislead), damaging, altering their enemies and the ground they fight on.

Instead spellblades here play like: Buff up, whack enemies whack enemies with sharp stick. Buff up, whack enemies with sharp stick.

A cl30 gish cannot afford the spell slots to do this due to 4-6 spell slots to buff up to a level that somewhat matches a fighter with UMD but worse damage and AB (and Tenser's specifically removes ability to cast spells anyhow, alongside Shapechange).

A cl24 gish could afford to not buff to high heavens (like a Swashbuckler 5/wizard 5/ Bladesinger 10/ Eldricht Knight 10 with a rapier) - but then they get dispelled to a sitting duck and they're still not afford to go completely without a buff.

Not even a cl 19 gish like Swashbuckler 5/Duelist 7/Wizard 15/Shadow dancer 3 can afford to fight mobs unbuffed. When fighting not hyper-enemies, it can sorta play like a real wizard but not always. Needs a ton of buffs to survive anything with more than 30 AB.


... hell, not even a cl 9 gish like Swashbuckler 14/duelist 8/wizard 5 / duelist 3 can afford to fight mobs unbuffed. But amusingly, this is the one that actually plays closest to a real spell blade, since buffs get dispelled so often might as well not bother, so can fill spellbook with actual spells rather than "ima pretend to be a worse fighter" spells.
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

Unread post by Snarfy »

EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:18 pm 3) For new and existing builds, it makes it possible to adjust builds from point 1 to drop 4 spellcaster levels, leaving practiced spellcaster in, thus making them more stronger in their martial part of gish and still staying immune to g. dispels and just building something new already accounting this change.
There seems to be a lot of focus on gish's here. I can sort of understand how this is a concern, and I was going to argue that spell DC's would take a hit, and then I realized that gishes don't use offensive spells really(I think?... I've never played one). As far as non-gish type casters go, do we have the same concerns about a 4CL differential? I'm referring to the bards, clerics, rangers, and paladins out there(and wiz/sorc hybrids that aren't looking to buff up and smash things with a sword).
EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:39 pm I see two ways to make things less hurting (except for original suggestion) while not suddenly powering up gishes a ton or producing other changes we can't predict yet.
1) Reducing the amount of mobs that have g. dispels handily available. As i said like 2 times already, i feel like making them to have it 1/5 times from current situation will still make it dangerous, but having 1-2 dispel attempts per zone encourages counterspelling while having 20+ makes it useless.
2) Introducing the line of feats that specifically increase caster's CL only against dispel attempts. Then, people would be able to choose their way to have cl 20 caster who is cl 28 caster in terms of resisting dispels at cost of feats.
While I like these two ideas, they sound like a lot of work, and maybe more work than just reverting the "fix"?

Honestly, at this point I'm not even sure how "powerbuilders" are even a concern. Players are either going to A: build for power, or B: they wont, regardless of dispels, and caster level 25, or 29, or whatever. Worst case scenario is that camp A will be able to whoop content like they are already doing right now, while camp B gets to tinker around with more build varieties without the need to focus on CL29. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:39 pm As i mentioned, i'm not a build guru. In fact, i never played many of PC archetypes aside from quick QC toons, thus that's what i see just from the top of my head. I believe, more skilled people can see exact things that freeing up 5 levels of spellcaster into martial class can benefit a lot.
Speaking of skill, countering dispels is not skill-dependant in most cases, but just requires one to step aside from hack'n'slash diablo style and think their actions like any adventurer going into dangerous place would actually do.
Please keep in mind i myself represent a single person - myself. Other QC staff, Dev staff and Admins can have very different opinion on this and i myself am not authority person who can decide for balance ignoring other staff opinion. In fact, QC stuff don't have authority to force or push decisions at all. We are testers and Dev advisors who do our best to provide the most detailed and discussed options. I myself find it's a part of my duty to discuss things, raise my concerns and doubts so players can help us with their bright ideas and thorough analysis of things we didn't take into account.
I have been the sole QC defending something in the past myself, so I won't add to your stress here. But perhaps bring this to QC/Devs and ask them to consider it.
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Deathgrowl wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:54 pm
EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:39 pm As i mentioned, i'm not a build guru. In fact, i never played many of PC archetypes aside from quick QC toons, thus that's what i see just from the top of my head. I believe, more skilled people can see exact things that freeing up 5 levels of spellcaster into martial class can benefit a lot.
Speaking of skill, countering dispels is not skill-dependant in most cases, but just requires one to step aside from hack'n'slash diablo style and think their actions like any adventurer going into dangerous place would actually do.
Please keep in mind i myself represent a single person - myself. Other QC staff, Dev staff and Admins can have very different opinion on this and i myself am not authority person who can decide for balance ignoring other staff opinion. In fact, QC stuff don't have authority to force or push decisions at all. We are testers and Dev advisors who do our best to provide the most detailed and discussed options. I myself find it's a part of my duty to discuss things, raise my concerns and doubts so players can help us with their bright ideas and thorough analysis of things we didn't take into account.
I have been the sole QC defending something in the past myself, so I won't add to your stress here. But perhaps bring this to QC/Devs and ask them to consider it.
I surely already did that yesterday afternoon. In fact, i don't defend current way of things, i simply point that it still allows for ways to overcome g. dispels and also point at possible balance changes it can bring that are hard to foresee here and now. Thus, i speak and try to get more idea what awaits us if that happens.
If it looks like i try to defend current state of things, sorry, if it looks like this.
I have my opinion on this, obviously, but i try to look into what this brings to server and if it will aid it for good without breaking things up.
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Re: Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Snarfy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:51 pmHonestly, at this point I'm not even sure how "powerbuilders" are even a concern. Players are either going to A: build for power, or B: they wont, regardless of dispels, and caster level 25, or 29, or whatever. Worst case scenario is that camp A will be able to whoop content like they are already doing right now, while camp B gets to tinker around with more build varieties without the need to focus on CL29. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think it all comes down to what snarfy said. CL30 builds are currently stomping content despite various nerfs especially towards divine casters. CL25 builds, are not necessary more powerful, but it is true that some can be eg instead of going for FS/Cleric with water domain to get EMD and Evasion, one can do something like FS24/rogue3/Paladin3-BG3. The team needs to decide whether they desire more what Snarfy said - to be able to tinker around with more build varieties without the need to focus on CL29 - than they are afraid for steam rolling content with an FS/Rog/BG instead of an FS/Cleric.
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