Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

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Bobthehero
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Re: Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

Unread post by Bobthehero »

The Blackguard/Divine Champ Smites springs to mind. To be fair, the former can't be used outside of PvP and DM events, but the former probably could use a CD instead of a use/day
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MrSmith
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Re: Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

Unread post by MrSmith »

Steve wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:11 am There are some N/day feats, like Dervish Dance, that are fantastic to be able to use one after another with no penalty or cooldown (at lvl 9 Dervish).

I'd argue that it would be a negative adjustment for this ability in particular if it was changed to Cooldown X minutes between use.
Absolutely agree! Stringing together a series of Smite Evil attacks can swing the tide of a battle, and as such having a handful of them is far superior to 1 with a cooldown timer.
Bobthehero wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:54 am The Blackguard/Divine Champ Smites springs to mind. [...] probably could use a CD instead of a use/day
Absolutely agree, too! One use per day for Smite Infidel is useless. A cooldown timer would at least make it marginally more useful... although 1 + CHA Modifier or 1/2 CHA Mod without CD would be righteous.

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Re: Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

Unread post by JIŘÍ »

Is there not feat to increase smite numbers?

If yes, the solution would be just to increase the additional it adds, and i would not put it on timer.


Also smite evil is quite powerful usually so if on cool down it should very lenghty one.
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edmaster
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Re: Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

Unread post by edmaster »

Nwn2 != pnp, Changing Abilities to cool down can be a bit of a game changer as well as a way to breathe new life into other wise mediocre abilities with little to almost no work
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Re: Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Well, even if DMs and Devs won't change these feats into cooldown, simply giving them more use with adding more uses/day or thinking over how to make them more useful is a good outcome of this idea as well, in my mind.

Each feat is to be discussed and decided separately, though, i'd like to see our system uniformed and things evaluated so we don't just have "historically cooldown feats" and "historically n/day feats", but actually make sure each of them was reviewed and it was a decision to make them cooldown-based or leave them n/day based.

Say, i myself doubt that summon baatezu feat needs cooldown as it's really powerful as is with infinite duration summon and having it on cooldown will even more eliminates warlock's need to rest.
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Re: Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Deathgrowl wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:13 am
EasternCheesE wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:38 am
Deathgrowl wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:22 am Use/day is a defining part of Dungeons & Dragons. Cooldowns is for MMOs. Please don't make this more like an MMO.
Dungeons and dragons doesn't also use "15 fights in 30 minutes" scenarios often. And since many abilities do already have cooldown instead of use/day, i simply want to uniform things.
To clarify. It's not a petition to "make all these as cooldown". It's a suggestion to DM and Dev team to consider to revise the number of abilities that don't have cooldown while many others do.
Server design problem, not ability design problem.

If you are going to argue for more cooldowns and less use/day stuff by pointing out that it's 15 fights in 30 minutes, you need to argue the same for the classes that are literally built around use/day stuff, such as non-warlock casters. That, though, would be a monumental mistake.

In my view, there should be fewer cooldown based abilities, not more.

Honestly, whatever suits DMs and Devs. My own wish is that i can actually use my PC abilities more often than just giving a punch to a single regular mob in 40 minutes of adventure. Whether it's achieved with more uses/day or with ability cooldowns, it's not so essential to me. Say, making some 1/day feats into 3/day with 3 minutes cooldown between uses (so it doesn't recover charges with time, only rest does it) where it necessary, would give players better variety on how they approach their encounters. Currently, many of 1/day abilities are just not used simply because reasons Rhifox mentioned.

With my own example, i rarely use pilfer magic which is 3/day, but it becomes golden when i want to counterspell mobs. 3 charges is just enough to feel i have a good storage and not big enough to actually feel like i'm spell-proof.
But for that impromptu sneak attack, i just don't rely on it as 3/day for an ability that is subpar to feint in every aspect it has and is not spammable like feint, makes it just a flavor thing that i use once in several days. Having it charges regenerating on cooldown (or simply having much higher uses/day would put it into position where there would actually be reason to even use it on something that is not boss.

I'd say we simply mark heavily underused abilities because the availability of them is low and there are not much situations that are worth of using these n/day abilities.

Yes, i myself stick to cooldowns since, in my view, this can only enhance the RP and view of classes and PrCs, not reduce it. Paladins actually using paladin powers while fighting instead of doing standard "chop-chop" barb style, arcane archers, everyone else will have better access to use their unique abilities through the whole encounter, not making a small cameo. Yes, this brings balance shifts, yes, this can make someone's life way easier. That's why we discuss it to give it fair balance and fair approach so underused stuff will get their use in current server paradygm. The more people can play their sheet with their PC-specific abilities, the better it makes adventuring RP.

I myself don't believe in "it's a server design issue", not because i don't agree our mob design is very specific catering to specific playstyles, but because "server encounter design needs to be reviewed" is something i hear for like 3 years being in this community and we still have it. While something is a huge project, we can do smaller projects to make the experience more fun here and now.
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Re: Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

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JIŘÍ wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:01 pm Is there not feat to increase smite numbers?

If yes, the a solution would be just to increase the additional it adds, and i would not put it on timer.
I fixed that for you... There is never just one solution. :D To your point, Great Smiting I - V does not increase the actual number of Smite [fill in the blank]. Rather, it increases the damage of said Smite action.
JIŘÍ wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:01 pm Also smite evil is quite powerful usually so if on cooldown it should very lengthy one.
Smite Evil is perfectly fine the way it is... Cooldown timers are both an advantage and disadvantage to the player. The point I made in my previous post is that IMO, Smite Evil works best when strung together in a series of attacks. This tactic can enable the character to change the tide of the battle. Conversely, if you were a Divine Champion and had only one Smite Infidel option per day, well then a cooldown would be beneficial -albeit, without actually improving the tactical utility of Smite Infidel in battle.

As for cooldown timers in general, I really like the mechanics of Ki Step... A player can elect to use three stunning fists to execute a Ki Step, thus invoking a 30-second cooldown before the next available use. This relatively short CD does not deny the player the opportunity to reuse this ability again in the same battle at the same cost of three stunning fists uses. If however, the player does not use Ki Step for two minutes, then the action was free.

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JIŘÍ
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Re: Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

Unread post by JIŘÍ »

MrSmith wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:19 am
JIŘÍ wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:01 pm Is there not feat to increase smite numbers?

If yes, the a solution would be just to increase the additional it adds, and i would not put it on timer.
I fixed that for you... There is never just one solution. :D To your point, Great Smiting I - V does not increase the actual number of Smite [fill in the blank]. Rather, it increases the damage of said Smite action.
JIŘÍ wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:01 pm Also smite evil is quite powerful usually so if on cooldown it should very lengthy one.
Smite Evil is perfectly fine the way it is... Cooldown timers are both an advantage and disadvantage to the player. The point I made in my previous post is that IMO, Smite Evil works best when strung together in a series of attacks. This tactic can enable the character to change the tide of the battle. Conversely, if you were a Divine Champion and had only one Smite Infidel option per day, well then a cooldown would be beneficial -albeit, without actually improving the tactical utility of Smite Infidel in battle.

As for cooldown timers in general, I really like the mechanics of Ki Step... A player can elect to use three stunning fists to execute a Ki Step, thus invoking a 30-second cooldown before the next available use. This relatively short CD does not deny the player the opportunity to reuse this ability again in the same battle at the same cost of three stunning fists uses. If however, the player does not use Ki Step for two minutes, then the action was free.

Cheers!
I believed there is also feat that provides +3 smites per day as in nwn1. My bad.
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EasternCheesE
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Re: Race/Class/PrC abilities N/day use and duration

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

JIŘÍ wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:14 am
MrSmith wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:19 am
JIŘÍ wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:01 pm Is there not feat to increase smite numbers?

If yes, the a solution would be just to increase the additional it adds, and i would not put it on timer.
I fixed that for you... There is never just one solution. :D To your point, Great Smiting I - V does not increase the actual number of Smite [fill in the blank]. Rather, it increases the damage of said Smite action.
JIŘÍ wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:01 pm Also smite evil is quite powerful usually so if on cooldown it should very lengthy one.
Smite Evil is perfectly fine the way it is... Cooldown timers are both an advantage and disadvantage to the player. The point I made in my previous post is that IMO, Smite Evil works best when strung together in a series of attacks. This tactic can enable the character to change the tide of the battle. Conversely, if you were a Divine Champion and had only one Smite Infidel option per day, well then a cooldown would be beneficial -albeit, without actually improving the tactical utility of Smite Infidel in battle.

As for cooldown timers in general, I really like the mechanics of Ki Step... A player can elect to use three stunning fists to execute a Ki Step, thus invoking a 30-second cooldown before the next available use. This relatively short CD does not deny the player the opportunity to reuse this ability again in the same battle at the same cost of three stunning fists uses. If however, the player does not use Ki Step for two minutes, then the action was free.

Cheers!
I believed there is also feat that provides +3 smites per day as in nwn1. My bad.
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Extra_Smiting
Here it is. It provides 2 though, so blackguard has 3/day smite good.
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