Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by DaloLorn »

artemitavik wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:53 pmLeave Canny Defense completely alone, so that the armored folks are tripple dipping (armor/shield + canny + elaborate) and getting the over-rediculous AC that is the concern, but they'll have Armor/shield + elaborate for their dip, and the pure duelists will have Canny + elaborate.
Putting aside the weirdness of this paragraph (I can't quite parse it without a good dose of "he meant to say one thing but accidentally wrote the opposite" fudge), armor/shield gets you up to 20 AC (10 optimized entropium, 2 heavy shield, +8 Armor/Shield EB), or 22 if you use a tower shield (23/25 when accounting for DEX limits). Canny Defense is 14 (10 plus +4 EB). In the context of the other duelist class features, the current form of Elaborate Parry can be seen as a way of bringing their AC roughly on par with a shield user (19 AC plus whatever DEX modifier you can get), which doesn't work as well if it's also available to the armored folks.
matelener wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:32 pm Personally, I don't think Elaborate Parry is/was needed at all. Duelist was in a great spot, a simple build: 12 fighter / 5 swash / 3 sd / 10 duelist reached good numbers and was able to clear the entire PvE content easier than a lot of other fighters builds. Suddenly, there came an idea of bonkers +10 AC combat mode, that even at +5 is situationally extremely strong and just promotes unhealthy "extremes" (a new weird path of armored duelist was born). Now, there are talks of allowing light armor with duelist (which is free 4-6 AC) and at the end of the day, I'm wondering why should we mess with the mechanics of a class that used to work so well?
Frankly, as someone who had to rebuild a swash/duelist into something similar to what you describe because it wasn't good enough... It's disgusting. Few PRCs synergize so perfectly with Swashbuckler as Duelist, either in theme or gameplay, and the best way to pull it off is by taking more Fighter than Swashbuckler? What's the class even for, then? We can just drop levels 6-30, make it the first 5-level base class on the server.

That said, this is an... unfortunately appropriate concern. I've been thinking too much about how the PRC works with things like Swashbuckler, Bladesinger, Rogue, etc., and not enough about Fighter. :(
Steve wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:59 am Giving boat loads of “free” Dodge AC to a PrC that doesn’t auto receive Uncanny Dodge as a class feat, makes this extra “free” AC situationally worse that that +5 always dependable Deflection AC the Duelist PrC once had.

+10 was way too much, and it showed immediately in how some players started using it in builds to min/max mechanical improvements outside the intention of benefitting the PrC itself.

If staff wants the AC to be Dodge, fine…but consider it being calculated by 1 pt AC per 6 pts Parry Skill, with a cap of 5.
The situational worseness amounts to "I have 1 less AC and 1 less free item slot when flatfooted". For a situational improvement of "I have 4 more AC at any other time", I don't think that's too terrible.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by DaloLorn »

After thinking about this some more, I'm becoming convinced that I'm too personally involved in this, given that I have a swash/duelist (... with obligatory rogue dip...) and a wiz/swash/duelist/deathsinger who have, in my eyes, only become viable because of the post-ToT improvements to Elaborate Parry. I've been evaluating potential adjustments from a perspective of "this is how the PRC should be used, and Elaborate Parry finally makes that approach feasible, so how do we protect that while smacking down all the ways it can be abused?", which has blinded me to the very real possibility that none of that is actually true. (Except "this is how it should be used", I'm ready to die on that hill! :lol:)

With this in mind, I no longer believe any of my proposals throughout this thread have any merit (except maybe making Precise Strike be a flat boost scaling with duelist level and starting at level 1, versus the current "1d6 per 5 levels" setup). I'm not convinced that we should keep duelists in their current state, but I don't think my ideas are the way to fix this.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Is there a reason why the Duelist needed a buff before? Or now? Why change something that worked before into something that everyone looks too incorporate into their builds because it is too powerful?
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by DaloLorn »

It's starting to sound like there wasn't. From my perspective, at least, I'm starting to get the impression that this is one place where PnP settings do not work.

(Though how much of this is because of duelist itself, and how much is because of homebrewed buffs like Athkatlan Tripartite or Northlander Hewing, has yet to be determined... as does the best course of action going forward.)
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by Rhifox »

The whole reason behind the change is that it was part of a global rework to combat. New combat actions, a preference for active defense over passive defense. Duelists are masters of fighting defensively in pnp, so when fighting defensively was added it made sense to give them their proper tools for that. Of course, people shot down several of my original plans (CE/FD only being usable in melee, Tumble AC only applying to FD, etc), which resulted, as usual, in power creep instead of power reduction.

The idea is supposed to be that it can be easy to get higher AC but that you have to consciously give up offense to get it. And when going offense you should have lower AC. It is supposed to be situational. Duelists, as a class, are supposed to be the class that tilts those situational bonuses in its favor by making them more efficient.

Frankly, it is supposed to be that duelists are the best at 1v1 fighting - that's the point of the class, so everyone wanting duelist for their pvp builds, or being mad that their opponent has duelist in their pvp build (because we all know pvp is what this is really about)... makes sense? That's the point of a duelist. You're good at duels. You should be less good when engaging ranged opponents (something that would be the case if we did the original plan of CE/FD only being usable in melee), when caught flat footed (against stealth/grappling), or when surrounded by packs of monsters (which is why it doesn't get Uncanny Defense, and why I'm opposed to it ever getting it), which is something the pve rework will fix (where mobs will be in larger packs).

The pve rework was meant to be in by now. It's been delayed as it's a massive project and I took a few months break. Combat rework was made for the pve revamp, not for current content.
DaloLorn wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:10 am(Though how much of this is because of duelist itself, and how much is because of homebrewed buffs like Athkatlan Tripartite or Northlander Hewing, has yet to be determined... as does the best course of action going forward.)
And yes, AT, NH, Sembian, Expose Weakness (so it's not just a BG thing, vanilla added plenty of its own homebrewed stuff too), spellcraft-to-saves, tumble-to-AC, and previous barbarian buffs all factor into being able to achieve higher than desired values in things. Right now it's too easy to get both high defense and high offense.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by zhazz »

Let's compare one of the other other high AC builds to a Duelist build, and then compare that to a hybrid of the two.

It's worth noting that the other classes most commonly associated with Duelist builds also add Dodge AC. These classes include, but are not limited to: Swashbuckler, Whirling Dervish, Thief Acrobat. For this reason, I've not added them into the Duelist build, since we're mainly concerned about the total achievable AC here.

It is also worth noting that the bonus AC from Duelist' Elaborate Parry will only apply when using either the Fight Defensively or Parry modes. And that this comparison will be using the pre-nerf variant of Elaborate Parry.

The numbers below are purely based on a non-buffed state. Magic/UMD changes any build, and should not be a concern when balancing classes and feats. Otherwise magic/UMD becomes mandatory for all builds, which is bad for balancing too.

I have opted for maximizing Dexterity on the Duelist build, rather than Intelligence. However they are interchangeable for the purposes of AC.

Finally I will mention that this is taking the AC to the extreme, which includes spending all 5 (five) epic feats on Armor Skin, as well as grabbing Luck of Heroes at level 1.
Classes
20 Man-at-Arms
10 Dwarven Defender
20 Fighter
10 Duelist
20 Man-at-Arms
10 Duelist
Total AC
73 68 75
Armor AC
8 Entropium Full Plate
2 Heavy Armor Optimization
3 Acrobatics
1 Luck of Heroes
4 Enhancement
3 Acrobatics
1 Luck of Heroes
4 Enhancement
8 Entropium Full Plate
2 Heavy Armor Optimization
3 Acrobatics
1 Luck of Heroes
4 Enhancement
Deflection AC
4 Enhancement 4 Enhancement 4 Enhancement
Dodge AC
5 Combat Expertise
4 Improved Defense (DD)
4 Enhancement
3 Athkatlan Triparite
2 Fight Defensively
10 Elaborate Parry
1 Dodge
4 Enhancement
3 Athkatlan Triparite
2 Fight Defensively
10 Elaborate Parry
1 Dodge
4 Enhancement
3 Athkatlan Triparite
2 Fight Defensively
Natural AC
10 Base
5 Armor Skin
4 Amulet
10 Base
5 Armor Skin
4 Amulet
10 Base
5 Armor Skin
4 Amulet
Shield AC
4 Tower Shield
2 Shield Block
1 Shield Specialization (Tower)
4 Enhancement
N/A 4 Tower Shield
2 Shield Block
1 Shield Specialization (Tower)
4 Enhancement
Other AC
3 Dexterity Bonus 10 Dexterity Bonus
7 Canny Defense
3 Dexterity Bonus
Attribute Requirements
13 Base Dexterity
16 Total Dexterity
13 Base Intelligence
20 Base Dexterity
30 Total Dexterity
20 Base Intelligence
24 Total Intelligence
13 Base Dexterity
16 Total Dexterity
13 Base Intelligence
Attribute Increases (from levels)
Whatever you want 6 Dexterity
1 Intelligence
Whatever you want
Alignment Requirements
Lawful None Lawful
Racial Requirements
Dwarf Tiefling (+2 Dex, +2 Int, [-2 Cha])
Drow (+2 Dex, +2 Int, [+2 Cha])
Air Genasi (+2 Dex, +2 Int, [-2 Wis, -2 Cha])
None
Required Feats
Armor Skin (Epic Feat) x 5
Athkatlan Triparite
Background: Acrobat
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Luck of Heroes
Shield Specialization (Tower)
Toughness
Armor Skin (Epic Feat) x 5
Athkatlan Triparite
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Luck of Heroes
Mobility
Weapon Finesse
Armor Skin (Epic Feat) x 5
Athkatlan Triparite
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Luck of Heroes
Mobility
Shield Specialization (Tower)
Weapon Finesse

Based on the above, we can see that the Duelist build is actually the lowest in AC of the three builds, despite getting a lot of "free" AC from Elaborate Parry.

When adjusting for the post-nerf of Elaborate Parry, both the Duelist and the hybrid build suffer in AC, while the other typical tanky build remain unaffected. In fact the hybrid build is still better off on AC post-nerf than the Duelist was pre-nerf.
Stepping outside the AC discussion for a moment, the hybrid build isn't using Combat Expertise, and could therefore pick up Power Attack instead. This will put it at the same AB as the other tanky build, but with superior AC (+2) and Damage (+5). And this is, I believe, where the imbalance presents itself.

Additionally the total AC of the Duelist build will drop by 1 or 2 points depending on what race is chosen other than the three listed ones. This is before considering putting points into Str, Con, Wis, or Cha, which will further reduce the total AC provided by Duelist, as points for those increases have to be taken out of Dex or Int.
Back to the discussion on AC.

Duelist isn't the highest AC class out there. Very few of the other classes, which provide additional AC, do so through non-Dodge AC. Those few that do, either require armor or a shield, or have difficult to achieve requirements creating an anti-synergy with Duelist — yes it's possible to combine the two, but the build will suffer immensely, while only being good at defense. As established in the prelude, anything, which only adds Dodge AC, will yield the same total AC.

Edit:
For anyone considering what buffs will add to this, the answer is that it won't change the results.
Tortoise Shell adds +5 Natural AC to the total
Improved Mage Armor adds +2 Armor AC to the total
Shield of Faith adds +1 Deflection AC to the total

That's +8 Total AC for all three variants.

Both the tanky build, and the hybrid one will get an additional +1 Shield AC from Magic Vestments.
The tanky build will get an additional +2 Dodge AC from Inspire Defense/Recitation before reaching the Dodge Cap of 20. The others are already capped.

This brings the totals to 84 for the tanky build, 76 for the Duelist build, and 84 for the hybrid build.
With buffs on the Duelist build is then 8 behind in AC to either of the other builds, where previously it was only 5 behind the tanky build, and 7 behind the hybrid build.

TL;DR: Buffs puts Duelist even further behind, while bringing the tanky and hybrid builds to even ground.

Personal opinion
The nerf to Elaborate Parry hurts the unarmored Duelist more than it does the hybrid builds using armor. Even with the pre-nerf Elaborate Parry an unarmored Duelist is not even the highest AC build available.

Considering the investment required to get the AC benefits from Duelist for an unarmored build (high Int, high Dex), which is faced by neither of the two other options, it seems fair that the unarmored Duelist maintain its high bonus AC from Elaborate Parry.

If the intention is to balance the hybrids, such that they must choose between high AC, AB, or Damage, rather than get benefits in all three, then the better option is to disallow armored builds to benefit from Elaborate Parry at all. This due to the post-nerf hybrid still having superior AC to the pre-nerf Duelist. What a hybrid build will then get out of including those Duelist levels is the thematic aspect and class fantasy to go along with Improved Reaction (Self Haste) and Grace (+2 Reflex Saves).
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

Elaborate parry needed a nerf, but the WAY it was nerfed punishes everyone who wasn't being greedy and settled for 7 lvls required for the feat and rewards everyone who min/maxed out on that ac.

Elaborate parry SHOULD be +5 ac, flat. Or capped by Int modifier, and not require 10 lvls of duelist to get the max effect. Otherwise, we're just rewarding greedy min/maxers and punishing those of us who wanted to settle for less ac in exchange for more than 20 non-duelist lvls.
Last edited by Flatted Fifth on Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by DaloLorn »

A well-written analysis, albeit with a few gaps here and there:
  • Shield Block and Shield Specialization are, unfortunately, Dodge AC, and subject to all the rules governing it. This reduces the maximum AC of the MaA/duelist by 3 points, and the MaA/DwD by 1 point, for a result of 72 AC on both builds.
  • The Dodge feat isn't really worth discussing outside in most gameplay contexts, considering it only applies to a single target. I'd rather go with +1 Combat Expertise.
  • Luck AC is more analogous to Deflection than Armor, since, IIRC, it contributes to touch AC. Just a random nitpick, doesn't really change your figures.
  • IIRC, shield rapiers can go up to +3, putting the duelist at 71 unbuffed AC. Using a shield spell can put them at 72, same as the MaA builds. (However, while both builds are subject to Spiderskin, Tortoise Shell, and IMA, only the MaAs can take a Magic Vestment to their shields, so they still get a +1 AC advantage when fully buffed.)
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

Rhifox wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:32 am. Duelists are masters of fighting defensively in pnp,
It's disturbing to me that you are so fixated on PnP. You bring it up in almost every discussion, but unless you're going to have every 4 or 5 players have their own personal DM who will guide the players through encounters that are always level appropriate and the players themselves always form a well-balanced group with the major rolls (tank, cannon, rogue, and healer) covered, NWN cannot be like PnP!!!! NWN in multiplayer mode is pretty random party composition and almost never with DM oversight.

NWN and PnP are entirely different games that happen to share the same setting. You cannot apply the rules of one to the other. If you could, then the rules of NWN wouldn't have been made different from PnP in the first place because it would have been easier and cheaper to just copy/paste than spend months on developing changes while the boss was breathing down the design team's neck.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by zhazz »

DaloLorn wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:56 pm A well-written analysis, albeit with a few gaps here and there:
  • Shield Block and Shield Specialization are, unfortunately, Dodge AC, and subject to all the rules governing it. This reduces the maximum AC of the MaA/duelist by 3 points, and the MaA/DwD by 1 point, for a result of 72 AC on both builds.
  • The Dodge feat isn't really worth discussing outside in most gameplay contexts, considering it only applies to a single target. I'd rather go with +1 Combat Expertise.
  • Luck AC is more analogous to Deflection than Armor, since, IIRC, it contributes to touch AC. Just a random nitpick, doesn't really change your figures.
  • IIRC, shield rapiers can go up to +3, putting the duelist at 71 unbuffed AC. Using a shield spell can put them at 72, same as the MaA builds. (However, while both builds are subject to Spiderskin, Tortoise Shell, and IMA, only the MaAs can take a Magic Vestment to their shields, so they still get a +1 AC advantage when fully buffed.)
All good points.

As I stated in my analysis though, I'd prefer not to go into what is possible when buffed. Because magic changes everything. Though if we're going down that road, we have to keep in mind that the Shield spell is both on the breach list, and usually cast at a low CL from wands or brooches. So not only is the Duelist dependent upon having UMD to get to even ground with the other two builds, it is also subject to easy removal.

Additionally both the MaA/DD and the MaA/Duelist build variants will be able to use a +4 EB weapon with interesting modifiers on it, whereas the Fighter/Duelist is locked into the Shield Rapier, which is either +2 or +3 EB, with nothing fancy added on top. In other words, the Duelist misses out on AB, Damage, and either of Elemental Damage or Vampiric.

The damage will be lower on the Fighter/Duelist build due to needing two epic feats (Epic Prowess and Combat Insight) to benefit from Intelligence being added to damage instead of Strength. Thus either losing AC or Damage.

Continuing along that same path, since we're now moving out of purely AC concerns, the Fighter/Duelist will require 20 base on two attributes to reach the numbers above. This forces every other attribute to be at a maximum of 8, incurring a -1 penalty to Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma. Each of which provide further drawbacks from being negative, such as reduced Damage, Hit Points, Fortitude Saves, Will Saves, and requiring higher investment into UMD to offset the negative Charisma mod.

Both the other variants can do away with 13 base Intelligence and Dexterity both, put the other attributes at 10 for no penalty, and then just pump Strength up to 30+ for not only AB, but also Damage (and carrying capacity).


Fighter/Duelist is a lot more work to just break even. With a lot of drawbacks and missed opportunities added in too.


Edit:
Corrected Epic Precision to Epic Prowess.
Last edited by zhazz on Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by DaloLorn »

zhazz wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:35 pm The damage will be lower on the Fighter/Duelist build due to needing two epic feats (Epic Precision and Combat Insight) to benefit from Intelligence being added to damage instead of Strength. Thus either losing AC or Damage.
You're mixing up Fighter and Swashbuckler. Epic Precision has no effect on either Precise Strike nor Combat Insight (which is good for your point here, because F20/D10 can't get Epic Precision! :lol:)... and I recently noticed that Precise Strike is not subject to crit immunity, despite everything everywhere saying that it should be.

No other comments I can think of right now. You're right about still needing one extra feat for INT to damage.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by zhazz »

DaloLorn wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:01 pm
zhazz wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:35 pm The damage will be lower on the Fighter/Duelist build due to needing two epic feats (Epic Precision and Combat Insight) to benefit from Intelligence being added to damage instead of Strength. Thus either losing AC or Damage.
You're mixing up Fighter and Swashbuckler. Epic Precision has no effect on either Precise Strike nor Combat Insight (which is good for your point here, because F20/D10 can't get Epic Precision! :lol:)... and I recently noticed that Precise Strike is not subject to crit immunity, despite everything everywhere saying that it should be.

No other comments I can think of right now. You're right about still needing one extra feat for INT to damage.
I meant Epic Prowess, not Epic Precision :D
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Fair! I forgot you needed that for Combat Insight, anyway. :lol:
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by Steve »

(Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5 variant, p. 185)

The duelist is a nimble, intelligent fighter trained in making precise attacks with light weapons.

Canny Defense (Ex): When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. For instance, a 2nd-level duelist with an Intelligence score of 16 (+3 bonus) can add +2 to her Armor Class. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Elaborate Parry (Ex): At 7th level and higher, if a duelist chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, she gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist she has.
Considering the Duelist PrC as a "nimble...fighter" and that other AC increasing aspects of the PrC are structured on NO armor and NO shield, just keep Elaborate Parry as per PnP, and customize it to not be applicable when using armor and/or a shield.

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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

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zhazz wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:34 pm
Classes
20 Man-at-Arms
10 Dwarven Defender
20 Fighter
10 Duelist
20 Man-at-Arms
10 Duelist
Total AC
73 68 75
Armor AC
8 Entropium Full Plate
2 Heavy Armor Optimization
3 Acrobatics
1 Luck of Heroes
4 Enhancement
3 Acrobatics
1 Luck of Heroes
4 Enhancement
8 Entropium Full Plate
2 Heavy Armor Optimization
3 Acrobatics
1 Luck of Heroes
4 Enhancement
Deflection AC
4 Enhancement 4 Enhancement 4 Enhancement
Dodge AC
5 Combat Expertise
4 Improved Defense (DD)
4 Enhancement
3 Athkatlan Triparite
2 Fight Defensively
10 Elaborate Parry
1 Dodge
4 Enhancement
3 Athkatlan Triparite
2 Fight Defensively
10 Elaborate Parry
1 Dodge
4 Enhancement
3 Athkatlan Triparite
2 Fight Defensively
Natural AC
10 Base
5 Armor Skin
4 Amulet
10 Base
5 Armor Skin
4 Amulet
10 Base
5 Armor Skin
4 Amulet
Shield AC
4 Tower Shield
2 Shield Block
1 Shield Specialization (Tower)
4 Enhancement
N/A 4 Tower Shield
2 Shield Block
1 Shield Specialization (Tower)
4 Enhancement
Other AC
3 Dexterity Bonus 10 Dexterity Bonus
7 Canny Defense
3 Dexterity Bonus
Attribute Requirements
13 Base Dexterity
16 Total Dexterity
13 Base Intelligence
20 Base Dexterity
30 Total Dexterity
20 Base Intelligence
24 Total Intelligence
13 Base Dexterity
16 Total Dexterity
13 Base Intelligence
Attribute Increases (from levels)
Whatever you want 6 Dexterity
1 Intelligence
Whatever you want
Alignment Requirements
Lawful None Lawful
Racial Requirements
Dwarf Tiefling (+2 Dex, +2 Int, [-2 Cha])
Drow (+2 Dex, +2 Int, [+2 Cha])
Air Genasi (+2 Dex, +2 Int, [-2 Wis, -2 Cha])
None
Required Feats
Armor Skin (Epic Feat) x 5
Athkatlan Triparite
Background: Acrobat
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Luck of Heroes
Shield Specialization (Tower)
Toughness
Armor Skin (Epic Feat) x 5
Athkatlan Triparite
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Luck of Heroes
Mobility
Weapon Finesse
Armor Skin (Epic Feat) x 5
Athkatlan Triparite
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Luck of Heroes
Mobility
Shield Specialization (Tower)
Weapon Finesse
Completely ignoring the difference between AB and damage on these three builds is an interesting decision. :) The builds themselves are ones nobody would likely play (a dex/int duelist without swash for instance), so that's another interesting decision.
Lord Fenix Wandersoul - Chaos is a ladder
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