Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:39 pm
mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:08 pmDid someone actually suggest for elaborate parry to give so much AC?
We gave duelist its pnp version of elaborate parry as part of the addition of Fighting Defensively/Total Defense from pnp. In pnp, it does give 1 AC per duelist level while FD is active. However, pnp is also based around a level cap of 20. Thus, like mystic theurge, duelist is a class which might be considered even underpowered in pnp at 20 levels, but becomes OP with 30 because you can stack more classes on top of it to make up for its weaknesses.
There was some concern over the initial pnp value, but I wanted to give it a run first to see how it played out. I personally am not a big fan of trying to balance dnd. It's not a balanced game. But outliers do need to be addressed, and this one, unfortunately, proved to be an outlier in many builds. It was turning duelist into a must-have class for any martial build. The original nerf went down to 1 AC per 3 duelist levels (which is the value used by Pathfinder duelist), but that caused quite a bit of discontent so it was reverted slightly up to 1 AC per 2 duelist levels.
It is unfortunate that duelist has to take nerfs because of non-duelist-themed builds using it for the AC, but I should also remind people that duelist was already a strong class, very popular in top pvp builds, even prior to the ToT update. +5 AC is still a buff compared to pre-ToT... and indeed, as mentalist says, could still be too strong.
It still leaves the class in a weird state, where it either has to sacrifice even more AB or damage to raise the AC high enough to be viable as a front-line character on par with full plate + tower shield. Which was the original intent of the Elaborate Parry redesign iirc.
With the limitation of piercing weapons only (all of which are Small), there is no Power Attack (except with Spears).
A shield is out of the way, otherwise disabling not only the bonus AC from Canny Defense, but also the bonus damage from Precise Strike.
As mentioned, AB is an issue for Duelist builds, making Combat Expertise less viable for AC.
There's three paths (more yes, but generalizing here) for Duelist:
- Focus on Dexterity for AC and AB
- Focus on Intelligence for AC and Damage
- Split between Dexterity and Intelligence for AC, but lower AB and Damage
Swashbuckler has good synergy with Duelist due to double-dipping Int to Damage, and adding more AC. There's no increase in AB, however. Though Flanking helps. Fighter is the archetype for most martial builds, adding both AB and Damage, but very little in terms of AC and Skills. The other baseline classes with High BAB progression require further investment into other attributes (Charisma, Constitution, or Wisdom).
Point being that Duelist have very few classes that provide a good synergy. Swashbuckler and Fighter being the two main ones. Adding Duelist to any strength-based build (Barbarian, non-Dex Fighter) is just to gain some free AC from Elaborate Parry working with armor and shield. Other builds is more open-ended, but essentially either breaks away from the class theme of Duelist, or they're using it for the bonus AC.
My main worry is that Duelist is being pigeon-holed into either Swashbuckler or Fighter variants even more than it already is. Because the limitations of the class features, and the investment to access it, will be out-weighing the AC benefits when compared to what is missed out on from further investment into other classes (Sneaks: SA Dice .. Divines: Spells/DC/CL .. Warlocks: Blast Dice/Spells .. Arcanes: Spells/DC/CL).
While I appreciate that there does need to be some balancing done, and some preparation for the upcoming PvE Overhaul, I don't think the nerf bat to Duelist is warranted in its current form at this point in time. As mentioned above, Duelist have several issues and limitations, with the main attraction being lots of AC. If other classes utilize Duelist solely for the AC, then a better solution is to limit Elaborate Parry to not function when armored or holding a non-light shield.
This at least limits most dexterity based builds to ~57 AC (10 Base + 20 Dodge (cap) + 12 Enhancements + 15 Dex/Int (Combined)). With the Dodge Cap only being hit with either Combat Expertise or Atkathlan Triparite or both active. Both of which impose drawbacks of their own. I'm not considering magical effects here, because almost any build, regardless of how terrible it is, can become a god when showered in magic.
57 AC is reachable by many other builds too, none of which have the same limitations as Duelist.
That's my take on it:
Limit Elaborate Parry to unarmored with optionally a light shield.
Or optionally give Duelist Uncanny Dodge as compensation (might be too strong, but at least fits the theme of an agile dodgy character).