Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

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zhazz
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Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by zhazz »

As per the title.
Rhifox wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:29 am * Elaborate Parry now provides AC equal to half of the Duelist's level, down from full Duelist level.
Why was this change deemed necessary?

The loss of 4 to 5 AC is quite a big change, and deserves an explanation.

Previously, with the minimum of 7 levels of Duelist it was possible to get +9 AC at the cost of 4 AB when activating Fight Defensively.
Now the same build only gets +5 AC, but still at the cost of 4 AB when activating Fight Defensively.

To make up for the loss in AC there is now a need to activate Combat Expertise at a minimum of +4 AC, with a further loss of 4 AB, putting the split at +9 AC for the cost of 8 AB.

This seems a quite harsh change, considering the class has several other limitations already. Such as no off-hand for Precise Strike to work, which is also limited to only piercing weapons. The same limitation of no off-hand also removes the option of a shield.

Not to mention the only other AC granting feat of the class (Canny Defense) is tied to not wearing any armor at all, and require significant investment into Intelligence, further pushing investment into Dexterity to make up for being unarmored in the first place.


So once again:
Why was this change deemed necessary?
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Who ever didnt expect for Elaborate party to be nerfed, well...

The reason? Too much AC. Elaborate parry went from giving +5 deflection AC ( that doesnt stack with deflection items ) to basically giving +10 dodge AC ( that stacks with everything but need to worry about the +20cap) . Even with the current nerf, it is still too much AC. Just with 10 levels of Duelist, you can get +20 AC ( now 15).

There is still too much AC with all the combat modes and feats available.

Did someone actually suggest for elaborate parry to give so much AC?
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by zhazz »

It was a decision made by the staff back when the ToT was released.

Duelist getting that amount of AC is not an issue.

Take 30 Barbarian for example:
Image

Add on top of that 8/- DR, and 2 Regen/round. With no conditional armor, and able to use any weapon, not just piercing ones.
Not to mention high health pool.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

zhazz wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:27 pmDuelist getting that amount of AC is not an issue.
Apparently it is.

In your example try a Barbarian/Duelist for the lols

BTW Barbarian is a base class, Duelist is a PRC. Apples and Oranges
zhazz wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:27 pmAdd on top of that 8/- DR, and 2 Regen/round. With no conditional armor, and able to use any weapon, not just piercing ones.
Not to mention high health pool.
That build is trash
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by Destinysdesire »

Forgive me to speak so boldly, is the intent of the server to break every character build so badly that your players just constantly quit? I am in four channels with players quitting left, right and center over how stupid some of these changes are getting. This was literally sourcebook material that is now being changed. If the intention is to kill your playerbase, the devs are actually doing a great job of it, the standard AC required for MOST areas over level 15, is an AC of 55 to tank...or literally get (do-me). As another player stated, if its over people cheesing it, make it so it only works when not wearing armor, which makes sense at least. PVE changes have not gone in, but were castrating our players instead? So before we ever get to PVE changes...NO player will be able to hunt over a level 15 area? Is anyone considering that this game is LOSING players over time? That by castrating all your players, your driving them away rather then encouraging more? I am sorry but this addition was not well thought out in application, it may have even been better received by actually waiting till PVE was in and ready to go. For me this is a massive disappointment. I am watching many players that are part of the foundation of this server quitting as the time and effort they invested, is reduced to trash and their characters completely invalidated to the point that there is no redemption without 1000% rebuilding and changing the concept.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by Rhifox »

mrm3ntalist wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:08 pmDid someone actually suggest for elaborate parry to give so much AC?
We gave duelist its pnp version of elaborate parry as part of the addition of Fighting Defensively/Total Defense from pnp. In pnp, it does give 1 AC per duelist level while FD is active. However, pnp is also based around a level cap of 20. Thus, like mystic theurge, duelist is a class which might be considered even underpowered in pnp at 20 levels, but becomes OP with 30 because you can stack more classes on top of it to make up for its weaknesses.

There was some concern over the initial pnp value, but I wanted to give it a run first to see how it played out. I personally am not a big fan of trying to balance dnd. It's not a balanced game. But outliers do need to be addressed, and this one, unfortunately, proved to be an outlier in many builds. It was turning duelist into a must-have class for any martial build. The original nerf went down to 1 AC per 3 duelist levels (which is the value used by Pathfinder duelist), but that caused quite a bit of discontent so it was reverted slightly up to 1 AC per 2 duelist levels.

It is unfortunate that duelist has to take nerfs because of non-duelist-themed builds using it for the AC, but I should also remind people that duelist was already a strong class, very popular in top pvp builds, even prior to the ToT update. +5 AC is still a buff compared to pre-ToT... and indeed, as mentalist says, could still be too strong.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Rhifox wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:39 pm
mrm3ntalist wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:08 pmDid someone actually suggest for elaborate parry to give so much AC?
We gave duelist its pnp version of elaborate parry as part of the addition of Fighting Defensively/Total Defense from pnp. In pnp, it does give 1 AC per duelist level while FD is active. However, pnp is also based around a level cap of 20. Thus, like mystic theurge, duelist is a class which might be considered even underpowered in pnp at 20 levels, but becomes OP with 30 because you can stack more classes on top of it to make up for its weaknesses.

There was some concern over the initial pnp value, but I wanted to give it a run first to see how it played out. I personally am not a big fan of trying to balance dnd. It's not a balanced game. But outliers do need to be addressed, and this one, unfortunately, proved to be an outlier in many builds. It was turning duelist into a must-have class for any martial build. The original nerf went down to 1 AC per 3 duelist levels (which is the value used by Pathfinder duelist), but that caused quite a bit of discontent so it was reverted slightly up to 1 AC per 2 duelist levels.

It is unfortunate that duelist has to take nerfs because of non-duelist-themed builds using it for the AC, but I should also remind people that duelist was already a strong class, very popular in top pvp builds, even prior to the ToT update. +5 AC is still a buff compared to pre-ToT... and indeed, as mentalist says, could still be too strong.
Thank you for the response, it wasnt really needed since it was a rhetorical question. There is no "duelist" or "non duelist " builds. Duelist is a prc and which ever base class gets dodge+ mobility + weapon finesse, can progress as duelist. You could have added more restrictions ( especially armor ) but i understand this getting complicated and as time goes by difficult to maintain as well. Still +10AC is bonkers. Even +5 is a lot. The elaborate parry giving +5 deflection was good ( even though not pnp ) in many different ways and everyone was happy about it.

Now that the same changed feat got nerfed ( and rightly so ) people will uproar :D

PS not one of the current players said anything about Elaborate parry getting too much AC when the feat was changed during the ToT patch. I dont think it is fair to get up in arms now. Everyone I know was expecting the nerf since they knew it was OP
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by artemitavik »

Sadly, there will always be "something requisite" for martial builds and whatnot.

However, a better solution for this may be to not reduce the AC the bonus gives, but to make the bonus light or no armor only, or no shield only, or something similar, so that the light weapon dex fighters aren't pinged for "nonduelist" themed builds trying to play numbers.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by Rhifox »

The no-armor idea was raised, but I didn't like it because it limits character options. Someone might want to play an armored duelist character concept (and I absolutely think duelists should be able to use shields because rapier and buckler), so I don't like the idea of removing that as an option. Tweaking numbers only moderates power, it doesn't hurt diversity of character options.
The elaborate parry giving +5 deflection was good ( even though not pnp ) in many different ways and everyone was happy about it.
The idea that +5 deflection is good but +5 dodge isn't is so weird to me. One of them stacks, the other doesn't. And yeah yeah, dodge cap, whatever, we've already started work on moving things out of dodge AC (like armor optimization), and the cap itself is something that's on my docker for things I want to remove eventually.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Rhifox wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:26 pmThe idea that +5 deflection is good but +5 dodge isn't is so weird to me. One of them stacks, the other doesn't. And yeah yeah, dodge cap, whatever, we've already started work on moving things out of dodge AC (like armor optimization), and the cap itself is something that's on my docker for things I want to remove eventually.
It shouldnt be weird. In essence, Elaborate parry used to give +1AC compared to what you could get from an item. The ideal thing was that duelists had an extra item slot to work on Saves, HP etc. Now Elaborate parry gives +10AC which is crazy. Even with the nerf, +5AC is a lot in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by zhazz »

Rhifox wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:39 pm
mrm3ntalist wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:08 pmDid someone actually suggest for elaborate parry to give so much AC?
We gave duelist its pnp version of elaborate parry as part of the addition of Fighting Defensively/Total Defense from pnp. In pnp, it does give 1 AC per duelist level while FD is active. However, pnp is also based around a level cap of 20. Thus, like mystic theurge, duelist is a class which might be considered even underpowered in pnp at 20 levels, but becomes OP with 30 because you can stack more classes on top of it to make up for its weaknesses.

There was some concern over the initial pnp value, but I wanted to give it a run first to see how it played out. I personally am not a big fan of trying to balance dnd. It's not a balanced game. But outliers do need to be addressed, and this one, unfortunately, proved to be an outlier in many builds. It was turning duelist into a must-have class for any martial build. The original nerf went down to 1 AC per 3 duelist levels (which is the value used by Pathfinder duelist), but that caused quite a bit of discontent so it was reverted slightly up to 1 AC per 2 duelist levels.

It is unfortunate that duelist has to take nerfs because of non-duelist-themed builds using it for the AC, but I should also remind people that duelist was already a strong class, very popular in top pvp builds, even prior to the ToT update. +5 AC is still a buff compared to pre-ToT... and indeed, as mentalist says, could still be too strong.
It still leaves the class in a weird state, where it either has to sacrifice even more AB or damage to raise the AC high enough to be viable as a front-line character on par with full plate + tower shield. Which was the original intent of the Elaborate Parry redesign iirc.

With the limitation of piercing weapons only (all of which are Small), there is no Power Attack (except with Spears).
A shield is out of the way, otherwise disabling not only the bonus AC from Canny Defense, but also the bonus damage from Precise Strike.
As mentioned, AB is an issue for Duelist builds, making Combat Expertise less viable for AC.

There's three paths (more yes, but generalizing here) for Duelist:
  • Focus on Dexterity for AC and AB
  • Focus on Intelligence for AC and Damage
  • Split between Dexterity and Intelligence for AC, but lower AB and Damage
Swashbuckler has good synergy with Duelist due to double-dipping Int to Damage, and adding more AC. There's no increase in AB, however. Though Flanking helps. Fighter is the archetype for most martial builds, adding both AB and Damage, but very little in terms of AC and Skills. The other baseline classes with High BAB progression require further investment into other attributes (Charisma, Constitution, or Wisdom).


Point being that Duelist have very few classes that provide a good synergy. Swashbuckler and Fighter being the two main ones. Adding Duelist to any strength-based build (Barbarian, non-Dex Fighter) is just to gain some free AC from Elaborate Parry working with armor and shield. Other builds is more open-ended, but essentially either breaks away from the class theme of Duelist, or they're using it for the bonus AC.

My main worry is that Duelist is being pigeon-holed into either Swashbuckler or Fighter variants even more than it already is. Because the limitations of the class features, and the investment to access it, will be out-weighing the AC benefits when compared to what is missed out on from further investment into other classes (Sneaks: SA Dice .. Divines: Spells/DC/CL .. Warlocks: Blast Dice/Spells .. Arcanes: Spells/DC/CL).


While I appreciate that there does need to be some balancing done, and some preparation for the upcoming PvE Overhaul, I don't think the nerf bat to Duelist is warranted in its current form at this point in time. As mentioned above, Duelist have several issues and limitations, with the main attraction being lots of AC. If other classes utilize Duelist solely for the AC, then a better solution is to limit Elaborate Parry to not function when armored or holding a non-light shield.

This at least limits most dexterity based builds to ~57 AC (10 Base + 20 Dodge (cap) + 12 Enhancements + 15 Dex/Int (Combined)). With the Dodge Cap only being hit with either Combat Expertise or Atkathlan Triparite or both active. Both of which impose drawbacks of their own. I'm not considering magical effects here, because almost any build, regardless of how terrible it is, can become a god when showered in magic.

57 AC is reachable by many other builds too, none of which have the same limitations as Duelist.

That's my take on it:
Limit Elaborate Parry to unarmored with optionally a light shield.
Or optionally give Duelist Uncanny Dodge as compensation (might be too strong, but at least fits the theme of an agile dodgy character).
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by artemitavik »

Rhifox wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:26 pm The no-armor idea was raised, but I didn't like it because it limits character options. Someone might want to play an armored duelist character concept (and I absolutely think duelists should be able to use shields because rapier and buckler), so I don't like the idea of removing that as an option. Tweaking numbers only moderates power, it doesn't hurt diversity of character options.
The elaborate parry giving +5 deflection was good ( even though not pnp ) in many different ways and everyone was happy about it.
The idea that +5 deflection is good but +5 dodge isn't is so weird to me. One of them stacks, the other doesn't. And yeah yeah, dodge cap, whatever, we've already started work on moving things out of dodge AC (like armor optimization), and the cap itself is something that's on my docker for things I want to remove eventually.
This confuses me a bit as the whole purpose of the nerf. It seems to me that the nerf is to limit the "need" or desire to dip into Duelest for AC boost, but the argument for not making it a light armor only being not to limit character options.

However, if the point is to discourage it from being "a martial necessity" or to keep it from a boost for heavy fighters, the whole nerf is to limit character options of those heavy fighters (who easily have other options for AC as well)

If you're going to nerf something, nerf it for the builds that are supposedly abusing it, not the builds based on it as the main theme. I really suggest making it light armor and heavy shield compatable only. That allows for not full Dex fighters and shieldmen to use it without giving the boost to the platemail and tower shield, while not penalizing pure dex

If a solution, as this does, causes more damage to the thematic, actual build a than the builds you're trying to discourage, it is not the best solution.
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

artemitavik wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:05 pm
Rhifox wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:26 pm The no-armor idea was raised, but I didn't like it because it limits character options. Someone might want to play an armored duelist character concept (and I absolutely think duelists should be able to use shields because rapier and buckler), so I don't like the idea of removing that as an option. Tweaking numbers only moderates power, it doesn't hurt diversity of character options.
The elaborate parry giving +5 deflection was good ( even though not pnp ) in many different ways and everyone was happy about it.
The idea that +5 deflection is good but +5 dodge isn't is so weird to me. One of them stacks, the other doesn't. And yeah yeah, dodge cap, whatever, we've already started work on moving things out of dodge AC (like armor optimization), and the cap itself is something that's on my docker for things I want to remove eventually.
This confuses me a bit as the whole purpose of the nerf. It seems to me that the nerf is to limit the "need" or desire to dip into Duelest for AC boost, but the argument for not making it a light armor only being not to limit character options.

However, if the point is to discourage it from being "a martial necessity" or to keep it from a boost for heavy fighters, the whole nerf is to limit character options of those heavy fighters (who easily have other options for AC as well)

If you're going to nerf something, nerf it for the builds that are supposedly abusing it, not the builds based on it as the main theme. I really suggest making it light armor and heavy shield compatable only. That allows for not full Dex fighters and shieldmen to use it without giving the boost to the platemail and tower shield, while not penalizing pure dex

If a solution, as this does, causes more damage to the thematic, actual build a than the builds you're trying to discourage, it is not the best solution.
You have a Prc, the duelist, which is not trash not OP. And someone says " lets give it +10AC". You think that is ok?
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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

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Re: Question: Why was Elaborate Parry changed?

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Rhifox wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:26 pm The no-armor idea was raised, but I didn't like it because it limits character options. Someone might want to play an armored duelist character concept (and I absolutely think duelists should be able to use shields because rapier and buckler), so I don't like the idea of removing that as an option. Tweaking numbers only moderates power, it doesn't hurt diversity of character options.
The elaborate parry giving +5 deflection was good ( even though not pnp ) in many different ways and everyone was happy about it.
The idea that +5 deflection is good but +5 dodge isn't is so weird to me. One of them stacks, the other doesn't. And yeah yeah, dodge cap, whatever, we've already started work on moving things out of dodge AC (like armor optimization), and the cap itself is something that's on my docker for things I want to remove eventually.
IMO, making it work like Evasion and/or the TA class features (was that Agile Fighting, KD Immunity, or both? I can't remember) might be a decent compromise. Light armor and bucklers, disabled by anything else. Alternatively, there's a couple of other Pathfinder changes we could borrow without further changes to Elaborate Parry, though one of them would likely require Dae's help to pull off without inadvertently becoming a huge nerf due to the Dodge cap, and another would require Dae's help either way:
  • Canny Defense: When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus. (Emphasis mine.)
  • Precise Strike: A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll. (Emphasis mine. Starts at level 1 - it's a slight drop in maximum damage at levels 5 or 10, but a noticeable boost to minimum/average damage on any level. This does mean you don't "get" anything at level 5 besides a point of Canny Defense and a point of Precise Strike, but that might even be okay enough not to count it as a dead level.)

    When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. (... I mean, honestly, I'm fine with keeping it the way it is, considering the fact that more complicated swash/duelist builds, such as bladesinger variants, are liable to lock themselves out of Epic Precision... but it technically is a bug that NWN's Precise Strike works on undead without Epic Precision. And possibly even with it. :()
  • Crippling Critical: The level 10 capstone in PFK is beyond our ability to implement (barring more Dae magic), but maybe you could get a free Weakening and/or Wounding Critical feat whenever you're eligible for Precise Strike? Or Overwhelming Critical, or something? I forget what other feats in NWN2 key off critical hits... Alternatively, Epic Precision? Or... something? I dunno. Uncanny Dodge, so pure swash/duelists can innately get Wounding Critical without having to take a rogue or barbarian dip?

    (Note: Whatever we did instead of Crippling Critical, the idea is to key it to the Precise Strike prerequisites: Single piercing weapon, no shield.)
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